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Liu posted:edit: just a dumb rant That's all any of us really manage nowerdays anyway, you should have left it in.
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Jul 4, 2016 07:55
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https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/749860294537740289 deport job-stealing euro-scum now!!111!
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Jul 4, 2016 08:01
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:Because people who want to restrict abortions don't really give a poo poo about dead babies. Their intentions begin and end with punishing and controlling women. And even if it wasn't, personal control and qualified medical assistance in dealing with personal reproductive issues - medical issues - is and should be a basic human right. Which sort of leads me to another point: I wish ethnic minorities, disabled, LBGT and other minority groups in which I include women for whom reproductive rights are attacked, woke up and realized something very fundamental that has been amply demonstrated in the UK in the time after the referendum. The tyranny of the majority doesn't ever go away. Terrible, horrible injustices can be inflicted upon a society by its own people who are easily swayed by liars, charlatans and other politicians who have a personal agenda and voice. While an oppressive thought, I wish I would see every minority group being even more keenly aware that every "right" they think they have can and will be taken away once the tyranny of the majority is allowed to govern a country. It's happened before and it will happen again. The only protection these groups have is for all practical purposes - historically and currently - overwhelmingly with politically left alternatives. I don't mean to frame this as a single issue deal, but every minority of every persuasion has only gotten to enjoy its current rights and protections from the tyranny of the majority through legislation and policy. If any of you think we've been in some sort of paradigm shift and that we're "cilvilized" now, please bear in mind that the general consensus of the public, the tolerance of the majority, can and will change in both directions. These minorities are NOT protected from society going "nope, we don't like gays, polaks, arabs, feminists etc. anymore", which really only takes some disenfranchisement, lack of social programs/poverty and a charismatic populist with terrible ideas to have happen. I'd like to see every member of these minority groups overwhelmingly voting as far left as the can, because everything else is self-destructive and damaging to themselves and the people they know. And it boggles my mind that they don't, if not purely from self-interest alone. DesperateDan posted:That's all any of us really manage nowerdays anyway, you should have left it in. I like to leave dumb rants in, myself.
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Jul 4, 2016 08:03
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big scary monsters posted:I really doubt even a Tory majority could get a bill making abortion illegal again through Parliament. They could probably do some horrible poo poo in that area like cutting funding provisions and adding conditions and restrictions to make things more difficult and unpleasant for the woman involved, but I'd like to believe that a flat out ban just isn't something that would pass a Commons vote, let alone get through Lords. There is a lot of pressure at the moment to make the judiciary act in recognition of religion as the most important right (as per the HRA) and if that happens under pressure from a new Tory PM it will absolutely lead to abortions being essentially unavailable with a slew of conscientious objections from midwives etc. People already feel this is 'morally right' due to s.4 of the Aborition Act 1967 giving people a get out clause, so you can expect to see Doogan happening all the time everywhere till services are severely restricted.
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Jul 4, 2016 08:09
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https://www.facebook.com/SelectLuke/photos/a.170533589794919.1073741829.152393064942305/607829429398664/?type=3&theater http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/michael-foot-memorial-vandalised-with-swastikas "Today, I got a message that the Michael Foot Memorial in Freedom Fields Park had been vandalised with Nazi swastikas, BNP and EDL as well as some other offensive words. Michael stood up against fascism and to see these symbols of hate on his memorial is sickening."
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Jul 4, 2016 08:10
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Jippa posted:https://www.facebook.com/SelectLuke/photos/a.170533589794919.1073741829.152393064942305/607829429398664/?type=3&theater Labour are traitors. So is anyone in the nation's history who ever stood up for minorities or foreigners. Make Britane Grate Again.
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Jul 4, 2016 08:34
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Nice piece of fish posted:The only protection these groups have is for all practical purposes - historically and currently - overwhelmingly with politically left alternatives. The trouble with this is that historically it's always come down to the establishment left taking the minority vote for granted (even while still actively making election promises to them) and as a result minority social issues slipping down the list of priorities because the party thinks they can just deal with it later. Or worse, non-establishment leftists directly telling minority people "your only chance for progress is with us, so until the revolution succeeds please shut up about your personal problems okay?" Not saying that's what you're doing, but at this point you should be aware that even if it's well-meant, your argument is likely to be met with "we won't be fooled again" skepticism.
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Jul 4, 2016 08:40
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big scary monsters posted:
ECHR doesn't provide a right to abortion(although it importantly also doesn't ban it; a foetus is not recognised as a person) so states can restrict it pretty much however they like as long as ot doesn't constitute cruel or degrading treatment or whatever. Ireland got a bollocking a while ago because the laws on when you can have an abortion were unclear, so we(eventually) clarified it and now you can have an abortion if you're literally going to die otherwise and a panel of doctors agree and blah blah bullshit. Another repercussion of Brexit: making it that much harder for women in Ireland to access abortion. Maybe we'll finally be forced to address the issue ourselves.
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Jul 4, 2016 08:45
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As there have been +1200 posts since I last visited - any noteworthy stuff happened since saturday?
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Jul 4, 2016 08:52
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double nine posted:As there have been +1200 posts since I last visited - any noteworthy stuff happened since saturday? Nah. The chicken coup plotters have given Corbyn more time to consider his position. Polly Toynbee says their challenger has to be Angela Eagle and not Owen Smith because Welsh people aren't allowed to be Prime Minister. Andrea Leadsom is basically a stereotypical American republican.
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Jul 4, 2016 08:55
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/john-mcdonnell-brexit-will-end-free-movement-of-people This kind of pisses me off. Most labour supporters voted to stay! Why are they rolling over in the face of a load of ukip voters and not standing up for the EU and freedom if movement?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:00
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Have the PLP ever mentioned cash flow for the next election as part of the reasoning for their coup? Because a legit of Corbyn, the man seems like he would be absolutely terrible at soliciting donations from wealthy patrons.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:03
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Labour get most of their funding from unions and members anyway, and they really shouldn't be relying on wealthy patrons.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:04
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pointsofdata posted:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/john-mcdonnell-brexit-will-end-free-movement-of-people Because Labour is already bleeding voters to UKIP in the North and in South Wales and actively campaigning on a policy of ignoring the referendum would effectively cede those areas and pave the way for a far right government.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:05
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Isn't Schrodingers Eagle is supposed to emerge today? If she sees her own shadow she gets spooked and we get six more weeks of manufactured political turmoil right?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:06
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Renaissance Robot posted:The trouble with this is that historically it's always come down to the establishment left taking the minority vote for granted (even while still actively making election promises to them) and as a result minority social issues slipping down the list of priorities because the party thinks they can just deal with it later. I can see that, sure. Of course, seeing as they have no recourse otherwise, they don't have a choice except being fooled. Protest voting for the right is shooting themselves in the foot. The best they can hope for is working inside these parties to get their issues recognized and pushed to the forefront. I know that's not fun to hear, but this is what it comes down to on a pragmatic level. Help shift the Overton window towards the left and rely on the traditionally accompanying shift in the general perception of minorities, improved public education and welfare for low-income housing (and the corresponding downward shift in crime stats) or suffer the consequences. If that means being taken for granted, that's simply too bad. It really does come down to that beggars can't be choosers, and I'm sorry about that but the struggle is real and will continue to be real for minority issues forever. There are no solutions, only reasonably smart actions. "We won't be fooled again" skepticism is self-defeating at best, self-harming at worst. Seems to me that the left then has the responsiblility to combat this perception and introduce meaningful change. But this has to happen internally, and it will have to come from these minority voices themselves within the respective parties. That's the only solution I can see upon immediate reflection, but I welcome your thoughts on the matter. floofyscorp posted:ECHR doesn't provide a right to abortion(although it importantly also doesn't ban it; a foetus is not recognised as a person) so states can restrict it pretty much however they like as long as ot doesn't constitute cruel or degrading treatment or whatever. Ireland got a bollocking a while ago because the laws on when you can have an abortion were unclear, so we(eventually) clarified it and now you can have an abortion if you're literally going to die otherwise and a panel of doctors agree and blah blah bullshit. It doesn't provide that right, and I feel that it's a major failing of the ECHR given their traditionally rather expansive interpretations of the convention in other cases. In my personal opinion, it doesn't make sense in a european context to hold any country to a standard lesser than basic human rights and dignities afforded in almost every single first-world country. I know the ECHR and/or the convention doesn't have as its specific goal to homogenize rights and privileges in Europe, but that's really a very significant part of what they have been doing for decades now. If the right case came along, perhaps the ECHR can give a limited ruling which in some way goes further than the Ireland verdict in terms of reproductive rights, and I hope they do. Meanwhile, we will have to rely on definitions of human rights and dignity and principles of non-interference in issues outsiders to it should have no voice in, other than definitions that follow the consensus of a bloody convention. Abortion is a basic medical right, the right of every woman, and this is not an issue I see the public as having any right to speak to. Not in any fair and just society.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:07
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pointsofdata posted:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/john-mcdonnell-brexit-will-end-free-movement-of-people
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Jul 4, 2016 09:08
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pointsofdata posted:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/john-mcdonnell-brexit-will-end-free-movement-of-people
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Jul 4, 2016 09:08
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https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/749852756630908928 thanks for the thoughtful contribution, vince from hull
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Jul 4, 2016 09:13
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pointsofdata posted:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/john-mcdonnell-brexit-will-end-free-movement-of-people I voted remain but, personally, couldn't vote for anyone who I felt would ignore the result. It shows a certain contempt for democracy which is a deal breaker for me. Note the use of pronouns, we can argue all day about whether ignoring the referendum is 'the right thing' or not again. I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced but it would take a lot. But then maybe I, like Corbyn, remember all the reasons to leave the EU pre the immigration issue hijacking.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:14
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/03/tony-blair-may-face-impeachment-on-release-of-chilcot-reportquote:Senior figures from Labour and the Scottish National party are considering calls for legal action against Tony Blair if the former prime minister faces severe criticisms from the long-awaited inquiry into the war in Iraq. the SNP are good trolls
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Jul 4, 2016 09:15
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LemonDrizzle posted:Because McDonnell and Corbyn are more or less unreconstructed Bennites and don't much like the EU despite the facade they put on for the referendum. Hence Corbyn's call for immediate invocation of article 50 on the day the result was announced and the ludicrous guff McDonnell's been spouting. Or maybe the Guardian is being dishonest in its reporting, and you're full of poo poo again.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:17
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Corbyn did call for the immediate invocation of Article 50, didn't he?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:26
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Pissflaps posted:Corbyn did call for the immediate invocation of Article 50, didn't he? therefore the fact that it still hasn't been invoked is indicative of his inability to lead, TIBFJC
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Jul 4, 2016 09:28
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Wolfsbane posted:Or maybe the Guardian is being dishonest in its reporting, and you're full of poo poo again. This is going to be an extremely unpopular concept in this thread, but it is entirely possible to not want free movement of labour without being racist. I'd argue that the assumption that a leave vote implies xenophobic views is a losing argument and a key reason the result came out the way it did. It would be nice if remain could let that bullshit die now.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:29
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Renaissance Robot posted:therefore the fact that it still hasn't been invoked is indicative of his inability to lead, TIBFJC Well, no, I wouldn't expect the timing of Brexit to be dictated by the opposition leader. It does however give an insight in to how he really feels about the EU.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:30
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Do we need 'insight in to how he really feels about the EU'? It's common knowledge Corbyn has wanted out for years. e: infact the fact he toed the party line on remain is massively to his discredit in my opinion. I was under the impression 'A new kind of politics' involved, you know, saying what you actually felt on a particular issue. jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 09:33
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Jose posted:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/03/tony-blair-may-face-impeachment-on-release-of-chilcot-report It'll be interesting to see who, if any, oppose this motion. I'd figure any and all Conservatives would be happy to stick the knife in, but which of the Blairites would not dare to betray their Lord God?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:37
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Wolfsbane posted:Or maybe the Guardian is being dishonest in its reporting, and you're full of poo poo again. quote:Jeremy Corbyn has said Article 50 - which triggers Britain's formal exit from the EU - must be invoked now. McDonnell, per his own tweet up there, "accepts that free movement will end" but still demands passporting and full access to the single market quote:The country now needs the whole system to gear itself towards delivering the long-term, patient investment this country needs. So we must ensure that any future deal with the European Union includes a banking passport and full access to European markets. We will not be supporting any exit deal that cannot guarantee those rights.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:37
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Pissflaps posted:Well, no, I wouldn't expect the timing of Brexit to be dictated by the opposition leader. It does however give an insight in to how he really feels about the EU. I think he was making a joke
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Jul 4, 2016 09:37
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LemonDrizzle posted:Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article 50 on the morning after the referendum Should he have demanded we isolate ourselves from our continental neighbours for 7 years and also that the teaching of foreign languages in school be banned?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:38
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jiggerypokery posted:Do we need 'insight in to how he really feels about the EU'? It's common knowledge Corbyn has wanted out for years. Yes, he correctly thinks the EU is a toxic institution which mostly serves the interests of those in power. But it was obvious that a leave vote would just provide fuel for xenophobic isolationism which is why he campaigned for remain. Given that it was a leave vote anyway, I think it's the correct calculation that we should leave as quickly and cleanly as possible.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:39
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qhat posted:I think he was making a joke And thus begins the derail of July 4.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:39
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OvineYeast posted:But it was obvious that a leave vote would just provide fuel for xenophobic isolationism which is why he campaigned for remain. Has he actually said this or are you assuming his thought process is the same as yours?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:40
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Pissflaps posted:Has he actually said this or are you assuming his thought process is the same as yours? His stump speeches were basically geared around opposing xenophobic isolationism, yes.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:42
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He did vote remain, campaign for it, after in the past criticizing the EU. It's not a huge deductive leap to say his view is probably "the EU is bad, but not as bad as leaving it, but not as bad as pussyfooting about leaving it"
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Jul 4, 2016 09:42
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You guys might be screwed short term, but at least you got the pound. Now take us (Finland) WTF are we gonna do except austerity ourselves into greece 2.0?
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Jul 4, 2016 09:42
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I find it odd that somebody whose shtick is being a man of principle would abandon them at the first major electoral test.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:44
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OvineYeast posted:Yes, he correctly thinks the EU is a toxic institution which mostly serves the interests of those in power. But it was obvious that a leave vote would just provide fuel for xenophobic isolationism which is why he campaigned for remain. Given that it was a leave vote anyway, I think it's the correct calculation that we should leave as quickly and cleanly as possible. Also that he leads a broad coalition of Labour and offered to govern by democratic consent. Given the vast majority of the Labour party preferred Remain he campaigned against what many see as his personal conviction in the spirit of the democratic will of the party. It was fully in line with his 'new kind of politics' to campaign Remain despite lingering Leave sympathies as the majority of Labour institutions wanted him to do so. This is part of why his campaign was the most authentic IMO. While the other leaders were going "the EU is great, the EU is fabulous!" he was saying the the EU has fundamental flaws and they should be changed. Others accuse him of sabotaging his campaign by doing it but before the Graun decided he was Satan again they were praising his 'warts and all' angle of the campaign.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:45
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forkboy84 posted:he wants an end to ring-fenced NHS spending. He's got surprisingly poo poo opinions about the healthcare system for someone who grew up in a council house, went to state school and was a loving doctor.
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Jul 4, 2016 09:47
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