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The TPS should just do what the Ontario Board of Education did and encourage officers in economically depressed areas to hold their citizenry to a lower standard. Arrest rates will drop and we can all pretend we fixed the crime problem for at least a decade, at which point the current crop of patronized stakeholders will hit a brick wall (but that will be the someone else's problem  ).
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Jul 4, 2016 15:05
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Regardless of the rightness of their opinions, it's pretty hard to imagine BLM Toronto coming out of this looking good. Judging by public opinion on this matter, their victory is Pyrhhic at best.
David Corbett fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 15:24
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Angry Diplomat posted:I'm gonna go with "literally loving forever unless the officer(s) in question is/are queer" tbh Police is a pretty queer occupation. Do you know a lot of cops? There is a large proportion of both gay/lesbian and bi officers then in a lot of other jobs.
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Jul 4, 2016 15:32
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Protest/strikes etc are not a PR campaign. Its about forcing people to make decisions, forcing people to talk about uncomfortable issues, and forcing people to confront their own and others biases/beliefs. Protests, by their nature, should make a lot of people uncomfortable. Protests are about advancing the position of marginalized people. If the majority of society was totally cool with the non-white LGBT community then there would be no need to protest. And who cares if the PM doesn't like BLM. He's alright with selling weapons to whoever can pay for them.
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Jul 4, 2016 15:36
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So are LGBTQ2S TPS officers now banned from Pride? That doesn't seem right.
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Jul 4, 2016 15:46
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zapplez posted:Police is a pretty queer occupation. Do you know a lot of cops? There is a large proportion of both gay/lesbian and bi officers then in a lot of other jobs. I'm definitely going to need a source on this info. I also don't see that it necessarily has anything to do with what I said; the salient point is not that queer people and cops cannot coexist, it's that there's a poo poo-ton of bad history and bad blood between queer communities and police services in most places. Queer cops are great and we need more of them, and I am always legitimately thrilled to see them marching in Pride with their partners/spouses/whoever. But uniformed officers outside of that context make a fair number of queer folks feel intimidated and unsafe, and since Pride is a queer march for queer people, I think maybe it's pretty reasonable to suggest that police officers who aren't queer should demonstrate mindfulness of the history between us by stepping back a little and letting us have our own space. I have no problem at all with straight, cis officers attending Pride off-duty. Hell, if they're willing to engage with the community and make an effort to be friendly and non-threatening, I wouldn't even mind them hanging around with the other attendees in-uniform. But the only police who need a float, or a stand, or anything of the sort at Pride are the police who are fundamentally part of Pride, and that's queer cops. Sorry if this is somehow controversial.  David Corbett posted:Regardless of the rightness of their opinions, it's pretty hard to imagine BLM Toronto coming out of this looking good. Judging by public opinion on this matter, their victory is Pyrhhic at best. This is true and it's a real shame. Given the history of Pride and the history of intersectional cooperation between queer and black activists in past generations, it seems to me that Pride is not only a perfectly appropriate time for a demonstration like this, but even a genuinely respectful and well-chosen one; it appears to indicate awareness of the history of Pride and the history of queer activism. Unfortunately the precise timing and the manner of the demonstration has kicked up the usual shitstorm of respectability politics, so it's likely that all the general public - including, to my absolute despair, the majority of the queer community - is going to get out of this is "BLMTO wants to hijack everyone else's issues, and none of their statements or complaints can be taken seriously." MA-Horus posted:So are LGBTQ2S TPS officers now banned from Pride? That doesn't seem right. They'd better loving not be. Banning actual queer people of any kind from Pride would be a shockingly wrongheaded move unless they were doing legitimately bad poo poo like starting fights or spreading TERF ideology or somesuch nonsense. The community's gotta self-police to an extent, but letting one group of queer people negotiate the exclusion of another is the exact kind of idiocy that's got our community so divided and fractious to begin with. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 15:48
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The fact that a marginalized group within a marginalized group like the queer contingent of BLM_TO sees greater opportunity in strong-arming potential allies with publicity stunts than they do in coalition building suggests the wars of yesterday are over and the stakes today really are that loving low. Intersectionality means everyone is someone else's oppressor, and infinitely regressing out-groups will always find grievance with those a step above them on the oppression ladder. On the bright side, that Pride TO can now be (apparently legitimately) posited as an oppressive and silencing force by a fringe subgroup speaks wonders about how far the gay rights movement has come.
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Jul 4, 2016 15:50
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Angry Diplomat posted:I'm definitely going to need a source on this info. I also don't see that it necessarily has anything to do with what I said; the salient point is not that queer people and cops cannot coexist, it's that there's a poo poo-ton of bad history and bad blood between queer communities and police services in most places. This is exactly the reason its so important today for there to be a upfront face from the police force saying "we are pro LGBT". Thats why they are at the parade. Because of the future not the past. If we exclude them from the parade how is that accepting them and them accepting LGBT in the future? Its a good thing that cops are in floats there, just like its good the PM was there. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 15:51
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Uh the people I know involved in Pride support BLM. But they're political activists.
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Jul 4, 2016 15:53
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zapplez posted:This is exactly the reason its so important today for there to be a upfront face from the police force saying we are pro LGBT. Thats why they are at the parade. Because of the future not the past. If we exclude them from the parade how is that accepting them and them accepting LGBT in the future? Its a good thing that cops are in floats there, just like its good the PM was there. I'm not totally sure how you can argue this and not also remember that queer cops exist and are greatly loved by most of the queer community. Like... a couple of generations ago the cops were smearing us, and now our children are becoming cops. That owns. Give us a float that's just queer cops, and let the rest of the cops cheer from the sides. None of us will feel intimidated or spoken over and you will get the same result. In point of fact, it will be more effective, because at no point will any of us have to think, "hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about a straight, cis police officer claiming a position of prominence and visibility in a parade whose history and significance are both heavily informed by the Stonewall riots, in which straight cis police officers were absolutely the bad guys." Hiring queer officers is literally the most meaningful and progressive thing the police could do, and they're doing that (although they still seem to have a pretty poo poo relationship with trans people, and don't even get me started on queer sex workers). They literally don't need to do anything else. We just need to see queer people wearing uniforms and badges and know that we're being protected by our own. That's it. You did it. Now the police are in Pride and everyone is happy. Like... to my knowledge, no Prime Minister has ever played Smear the Queer. Prime Ministers are important political figures in a democratic system of governance. Their presence in, or absence from, a Pride event is a statement in and of itself. That is not at all comparable in any way to the police, an institutional power structure with a history of being pretty violently bad to queer people, choosing to put officers who are not queer into a thing that commemorates the queer community and its roots. They can still cheer and show support from the sides. We very much like seeing that. But straight, cis cops really legitimately do not need a float, particularly considering that there are queer cops who we don't feel intimidated by, because they represent concrete evidence that the police are taking our poo poo seriously and treating us like actual citizens in present day. I am genuinely having difficulty understanding why this is a troublesome concept. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 15:58
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I like to thing we agree on the core ideas around this. We need more queer cops. Cops should support queer communities. I think we disagree who should be entitled to participate in the parade. Just because Trudeau isnt LGBT doesnt mean he doesnt represent the government , and in turn should be in the parade. Just like even if only 25% of the cops in the parade are LGBT, doesnt mean that 75% of them should be there because they represent the law enforcement community. I'd say its show a lot more to have 75 straight cops there going "i support this movement"
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Jul 4, 2016 16:06
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I mean, that's great, but are you queer? Because as a queer person I certainly appreciate your thoughts and your engagement in this dialogue but I'm not totally certain you get where I'm coming from here. The notion that anyone who isn't queer is "entitled" to march in Pride is kind of hosed up and is probably a symptom of its deviation from its roots; a lot of queer people today have only the vaguest idea of what Stonewall even was and don't realize Pride has anything to do with it at all. Pride is our thing, and it's really, really important to us for a lot of reasons. Queer activists had to fight tooth and nail to help create a society that allows Pride to exist, and forcing their surviving old guard to stand by and watch straight cops drive a float in the parade is wrong. It's important to commemorate our history and remember what brought us to where we are today, and putting straight, cis, and often white and/or male officers in the parade itself flies in the face of that. Like I completely understand your argument but it just... doesn't address or suggest any understanding of the point of contention here at all. e: I mean gently caress, police officers entering queer spaces without an invitation used to mean that a whole shitload of gay, lesbian, bi, and trans people were about to get beat the gently caress up and possibly chucked in a cell. This was true until very recently in this country's history, comparatively speaking. Do you really not grasp why some of us are a little unhappy to see straight cops claiming a space in Pride regardless of our own feelings on the matter? Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 16:24
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the trump tutelage posted:The fact that a marginalized group within a marginalized group like the queer contingent of BLM_TO sees greater opportunity in strong-arming potential allies with publicity stunts than they do in coalition building suggests the wars of yesterday are over and the stakes today really are that loving low. Intersectionality means everyone is someone else's oppressor, and infinitely regressing out-groups will always find grievance with those a step above them on the oppression ladder. The gay community legitimately has a racism problem, though, and a problem with selectively supporting or not supporting more vulnerable queer groups depending on how convenient it is. We're a legitimate target for protest! You don't get to handwave away legitimate concerns with "see, even the gays are getting protested now, it's ridiculous".
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Jul 4, 2016 16:24
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Angry Diplomat posted:I mean, that's great, but are you queer? Because as a queer person I certainly appreciate your thoughts and your engagement in this dialogue but I'm not totally certain you get where I'm coming from here. The notion that anyone who isn't queer is "entitled" to march in Pride is kind of hosed up and is probably a symptom of its deviation from its roots; a lot of queer people today have only the vaguest idea of what Stonewall even was and don't realize Pride has anything to do with it at all. No I am not queer, but I consider myself pro-queer. Maybe I have a distorted view of what the pride parade is in Toronto, where I thought it was more about inclusiveness and letting everyone say they are pro queer. Maybe there needs to be a queer celebration parade where cops/business/government can march in? And I am aware of the history of queers being beaten/arrested/marginalized/killed by law enforcement, thats part of the reason I think its so important today they show they are pro lgbt. Also only slightly related but this was a really cool and heartwarming story from a few weeks ago from England. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-boyfriend.html vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 16:33
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zapplez posted:No I am not queer, but I consider myself pro-queer. Then, you know, it's really cute that you think you get to have an opinion over who gets to be included in the parade, but you don't.
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Jul 4, 2016 16:41
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Pinterest Mom posted:Then, you know, it's really cute that you think you get to have an opinion over who gets to be included in the parade, but you don't. I know I dont get to decide anything, but I mean this is a forum and we have discourse on the issues. Does this float look like its adds or subtracts from the community? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpJV5VeABlk vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 16:45
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Of course it looks good. It's supposed to. I don't think Pride should be a venue for organisations who have been and continue to be a destructive force in queer life to burnish their image.
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Jul 4, 2016 16:48
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What the gently caress are you morons taking about
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Jul 4, 2016 16:50
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namaste faggots posted:What the gently caress are you morons taking about Identity politics that only a minority are affected and a minority of a minority care about
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Jul 4, 2016 16:51
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namaste faggots posted:What the gently caress are you morons taking about Humans with feelings. You might want to sit this one out.
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Jul 4, 2016 16:54
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Pinterest Mom posted:Then, you know, it's really cute that you think you get to have an opinion over who gets to be included in the parade, but you don't. Oh hey what's going on in canpol? The gays have revoked straight people's rights to even have opinions on certain topics. The float is fine but that woman's cadence is the worst thing I've ever heard in my life.
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Jul 4, 2016 16:54
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Since I cant have an opinion as a straight guy, lets see what this gay cop thinks about it, and how he is treated by his coworkers. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/gay-cop-black-lives-matter-letter-1.3663323 Really, I think I just always thought the pride parade was cool as gently caress, and hoped someday if I worked for Netflix or the City Works or whatever, I could be cheering on a float too.
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Jul 4, 2016 16:57
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the trump tutelage posted:The fact that a marginalized group within a marginalized group like the queer contingent of BLM_TO sees greater opportunity in strong-arming potential allies with publicity stunts than they do in coalition building suggests the wars of yesterday are over and the stakes today really are that loving low. Intersectionality means everyone is someone else's oppressor, and infinitely regressing out-groups will always find grievance with those a step above them on the oppression ladder. How come it's always the minorities/marginalized who have to build coalitions? jm20 posted:Identity politics that only a minority are affected and a minority of a minority care about A lot of people have pretty strong feelings that BLM is just being uppity. I wonder why that is...
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Jul 4, 2016 16:58
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Duck Rodgers posted:How come it's always the minorities/marginalized who have to build coalitions? Because there are fewer of them. It's right there in the word.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:00
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is it really so loving hard for us straight people to stop doing lovely queer entryisms and watering pillars of the lgbt struggle down into some godawful hey-me-too-this-is-cool horseshit. not everything has to be ours, no matter how 'cool' it is
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Jul 4, 2016 17:02
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The gay pride parade seems kind of pointless now that it is seen as politically safe, all politicians attend and rainbow flags are flown by government.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:03
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Pinterest Mom posted:Of course it looks good. It's supposed to. I don't think Pride should be a venue for organisations who have been and continue to be a destructive force in queer life to burnish their image. So just kick them out and make them even angrier towards the community??
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Jul 4, 2016 17:04
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When are we going to start marching for polygamy rights
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Jul 4, 2016 17:04
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Ambrose Burnside posted:not everything has to be ours, no matter how 'cool' it is a lesson for Canadians about American political movements and other American cultural stuff, for that matter
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Jul 4, 2016 17:07
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Ikantski posted:Oh hey what's going on in canpol? The gays have revoked straight people's rights to even have opinions on certain topics. Yeah man I, a member of "the gays," will proudly abide by the ironclad word of law passed down in Supreme Gay Overlord Pinterest Mom's flippant comments. I guess we'd better completely stop having our occasionally emotional but overall respectful and good-faith discussion on the subject and go back to angrily shitposting about Calgary or whatever. Sorry  Ambrose Burnside posted:is it really so loving hard for us straight people to stop doing lovely queer entryisms and watering pillars of the lgbt struggle down into some godawful hey-me-too-this-is-cool horseshit. not everything has to be ours, no matter how 'cool' it is You. I like you.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:08
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Pinterest Mom posted:Then, you know, it's really cute that you think you get to have an opinion over who gets to be included in the parade, but you don't. Who does? All queers or just the right-thinking kind?
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Jul 4, 2016 17:16
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On one hand I can understand wanting LBGTQ people in the parade only. It's meant to show visibility and that the members of the community should be proud and not hide who they are. The other hand I don't think kicking out non-LBGTQ is the best move. It's separating the community and isolating them, when really being open and accepted is what they want.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:25
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I'm sure 100% of the TBLM wierdos who blockaded the parade were gay, and therefore entitled to have an opinion on Toronto Pride.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:25
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Constant Hamprince posted:I'm sure 100% of the TBLM wierdos who blockaded the parade were gay, and therefore entitled to have an opinion on Toronto Pride. Do you have any reason to believe they're not, or are you just being snarky and self-satisfied?
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Jul 4, 2016 17:28
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the trump tutelage posted:Who does? All queers or just the right-thinking kind? I'm not certain I follow. Can you elaborate? Excelsiortothemax posted:On one hand I can understand wanting LBGTQ people in the parade only. It's meant to show visibility and that the members of the community should be proud and not hide who they are. I don't think anyone here is advocating the mass expulsion of everyone outside the queer community. Some of us just don't really want to see non-queer cops occupying a place in the parade, due to the specific history between us and said cops. 
Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 17:28
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I'm pretty sure every Canadian is allowed to have an "opinion" on Toronto Pride. Whether or not that opinion carries weight or not is another discussion altogether. (whether that opinion violates the charter of rights and freedoms is yet another discussion)
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Jul 4, 2016 17:34
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Let me know when we can circle back to the implication that BLMTO's message is invalid because TPS produced a report 13 years ago that says you can't use their arrest stats to prove that racial profiling is happening.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:34
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Has anyone here said anything yet about the general nasty attitude of the black community towards LGBT people and the fact that a black LGBT person is way more likely to get curb stomped by a regular black person while the rest turn a blind eye than by a cop? I agree that black lives matter and cops have been really poo poo to the LGBT community but I think that cops have more right to be in the parade than BLM does.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:35
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lol do some people really think that it's racist to call out BLM for pulling a dickhead stunt?
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Jul 4, 2016 17:38
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EvilJoven posted:Has anyone here said anything yet about the general nasty attitude of the black community towards LGBT people and the fact that a black LGBT person is way more likely to get curb stomped by a regular black person while the rest turn a blind eye than by a cop? Are you @ItsTerzys?
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