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So I just fnished the game. I didn't... miss a scene that established Delta was there the whole time, right? The first time I saw any mention of him being there was when I chose him in the Mexican standoff. Then I had to tell Eric who Zero actually was and that showed him for real. Overall I enjoyed the game but feel like stuff with Delta was pretty unnecessary. There's no reason to say Carlos/Sean/Diana chose bad decisions because someone was literally controlling them, we have an infinite number of worlds and surely they would have done it on their own in some of them. Delta could've just been some guy in Dcom that wasn't present until they started pointing fingers and it would've made more sense then everyone conveniently not mentioning him. Also I'm annoyed that Akane was never called out on the poo poo she pulled a year ago. When Delta is talking about all the other timelines and how it was for his ultimate plan, he could've perfectly justified it by saying she did the exact same thing. In general she just seemed a little too oblivious to the stuff going on. Would she really expect to reason with someone calling themselves Zero after she played the same role? edit: Also at one point Zero left a recording saying he was killed by Carlos in that timeline, but when did that happen? Momomo fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 17:22
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Momomo posted:So I just fnished the game. I didn't... miss a scene that established Delta was there the whole time, right? The first time I saw any mention of him being there was when I chose him in the Mexican standoff. Then I had to tell Eric who Zero actually was and that showed him for real. There are lots of "obvious in retrospect" hints, but no, it's supposed to be a complete surprise. I think the ones that could most reasonably make a player suspicious are the scenes where the other teams talk about Q-team's deaths, and specifically the way they talk about Q; if you pay attention the things they say about Q make no sense if Q is Sean. I've never heard anyone say that they picked up on those, though.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:34
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Momomo posted:So I just fnished the game. I didn't... miss a scene that established Delta was there the whole time, right? The first time I saw any mention of him being there was when I chose him in the Mexican standoff. Then I had to tell Eric who Zero actually was and that showed him for real. There is a long post about this topic on reddit. Momomo posted:edit: Also at one point Zero left a recording saying he was killed by Carlos in that timeline, but when did that happen? He chose to execute Q team instead of D team liked planned in that timeline.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:44
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Meiteron posted:This is actually one of the more disappointing things, for me, about how the plot turned out in ZTD. I wonder if Uchikoshi originally wanted to do more with BW/? as alluded to in VLR but changed his mind to go with mind hacking instead. I think directly implicating the player as an amoral/morally gray external force toying with the characters would have been a more interesting crux for the game as a whole, even if just to point out the players' hypocrisy for hating on Delta toying with lives when you've been doing the same thing the whole time more or less. Relegating this moral quandary to the characters right before the game ends with SHIFTing was a bad way to execute that. It would have been better structured if these concerns came up in VLR before hand IMO.
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Jul 4, 2016 17:51
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NRVNQSR posted:I think the ones that could most reasonably make a player suspicious are the scenes where the other teams talk about Q-team's deaths, and specifically the way they talk about Q; if you pay attention the things they say about Q make no sense if Q is Sean. I've never heard anyone say that they picked up on those, though. I assumed it was just a plothole though
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Jul 4, 2016 17:54
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Momomo posted:So I just fnished the game. I didn't... miss a scene that established Delta was there the whole time, right? The first time I saw any mention of him being there was when I chose him in the Mexican standoff. Then I had to tell Eric who Zero actually was and that showed him for real. There in retrospect, a whole lot of weird things that go on in Q-Team's cutscenes that don't quite make sense if you consider Sean as Q. They do however make perfect sense if Delta is Q. -After Sean shoots Eric in the study, Mira gets mad and aims her gun. There's a gunshot, a thump as Delta hits the ground, then fires again and shoots Sean. -When Eric kills everyone if you give the wrong answer before the reveal, there are 4 gunshots. One for Sean, one for Sigma, one for Diana, and one for Delta. -In the Reality fragment, Q is announced as dead, as Sean lies supposedly dead on the floor and talking after Mira stabs Eric. Delta however had already been stabbed and is dead. -In Zero's study, there is a Matroskya Doll as the symbol for Sean. The other 8 dolls on the board are shown on the Team Status screen. Q's however is never filled in, indicating its not Sean. There are more subtle hints, but with that being said, there is in fact one cutscene before the big reveal that explicitly spoils Q's true identity, and it is done in such a sneaky, underhanded, yet logically consistent manner that you may completely miss it. If you go to the Team Status screen in the Twins ending, Q & Phi's status will in fact change from being "Dead" to "Alive" after Diana gives birth. Momomo posted:Overall I enjoyed the game but feel like stuff with Delta was pretty unnecessary. There's no reason to say Carlos/Sean/Diana chose bad decisions because someone was literally controlling them, we have an infinite number of worlds and surely they would have done it on their own in some of them. Delta could've just been some guy in Dcom that wasn't present until they started pointing fingers and it would've made more sense then everyone conveniently not mentioning him. Eh. It helped their characterization, and the game has a running theme on parasites, possession, etc. Momomo posted:Also I'm annoyed that Akane was never called out on the poo poo she pulled a year ago. When Delta is talking about all the other timelines and how it was for his ultimate plan, he could've perfectly justified it by saying she did the exact same thing. In general she just seemed a little too oblivious to the stuff going on. Would she really expect to reason with someone calling themselves Zero after she played the same role? The major difference is that Akane in the second Nonary game actually set it up so that it could be beaten without anyone dying. That it failed to happen...is more of an indictment on Ace/Nine/Captain guy then Akane or Zero. Momomo posted:edit: Also at one point Zero left a recording saying he was killed by Carlos in that timeline, but when did that happen? That was the timeline in which Carlos and Diana both voted for Q-Team. Eric, Mira, Sean, and Delta were all executed by bomb collars in accordance with the vote.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:00
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This is real pedantic question but why was Delta's wheelchair (& by association Delta) chained up in the computer room in Q's Contamination ending? Did he do it himself so as not to be dragged out by Eric and Mira?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:01
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I didn't notice those specific hints, but there was something more general that bothered me - it's clear from the "Payoff" end and the way Eric reacts at the start that nobody knows who the gently caress the little boy with the helmet is. So why do the people from the other teams act like they know who "Q" is in the rest of the game? C & D teams never immediately recognize Sean. -Team D is shocked to see a small child on the other side of the decontamination room door, where Q team was positioned during the VLR ending. -Team C doesn't recognize evil Sean when it attacks them for cheating, and Carlos makes a few revelations on how he's acting completely different after he shifts to the reveal timeline. C & D Team recognize Delta, because he was in the DCOM experiment. He's mentioned in a few spots by the different team members. OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 18:05
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exploding mummy posted:The major difference is that Akane in the second Nonary game actually set it up so that it could be beaten without anyone dying. That it failed to happen...is more of an indictment on Ace/Nine/Captain guy then Akane or Zero. She knew everything that was going to happen though and didn't even bother trying to stop it. Her plan hinged on multiple timelines even. While maybe not exactly the same as Delta, Akane definitely has blood on her hands. Also I don't recall an explanation for how Mira was able to kill D team in that one timeline (with her sheet still on for... some reason). Did her knockout drugs just conveniently wear off sooner or something?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:10
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Momomo posted:Also I don't recall an explanation for how Mira was able to kill D team in that one timeline (with her sheet still on for... some reason). Did her knockout drugs just conveniently wear off sooner or something? Zero never drugged Mira, and kind of let her do whatever she wanted to some extent over the course of the game. The only time that he ever really took retaliatory action against her was when she killed Junpei in cold storage in one timeline. He brought her in to be a piranha in the tank of fish, to allow for agitation and force the fish to...reproduce. This is explicitly laid out during the reveal cutscene. OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 18:15
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Momomo posted:She knew everything that was going to happen though and didn't even bother trying to stop it. Her plan hinged on multiple timelines even. While maybe not exactly the same as Delta, Akane definitely has blood on her hands. If I recall right, Delta revealed that he didn't actually knock out Mira or did it for a shorter period. edit: too slow.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:23
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exploding mummy posted:This is explicitly laid out during the reveal cutscene. He said he didn't give her the memory drugs, not that he didn't knock her out. Sure you can take that as an implication that he did neither, but absence of information is a huge thing in this game.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:28
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exploding mummy posted:C & D teams never immediately recognize Sean. Right at the beginning of the game, there's a cutscene where Eric mentions "the old man in the wheelchair." But it is so buried after that, I didn't even bother to question it until Delta is shown on screen. I did, however, pick up on Phi being Diana's daughter the second I noticed she had red eyebrows. (This was, incidentally, just before the scene the topic comes up.) And it is pretty obvious that was a plot addition between VLR and ZTD since none of the original conception art has Phi with red eyebrows/lashes. 
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Jul 4, 2016 18:34
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actually it's been pretty obvious phi was sigma's daughter since VLR diana being the mother though? who knows
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Jul 4, 2016 18:38
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exploding mummy posted:C & D teams never immediately recognize Sean.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I know, what I meant was before the teams met up they weren't surprised to see the name "Q" on the board. That indicated something was up. Weren't they told in the Dcom experiment that Delta's name was Q? No one knew his real name even from the get go.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:47
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AlternateNu posted:Weren't they told in the Dcom experiment that Delta's name was Q? No one knew his real name even from the get go. He's saying he noticed that: A) No one knew the helmet child B) No one seemed surprised that Q was listed as playing And thus suspected something weird was going on, and was ultimately proven to be correct.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:53
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MegaZeroX posted:There is a long post about this topic on reddit.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:36
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Intoluene posted:I finished this game a while ago and I never actually realised that Delta was with Q team the whole time. I thought he just happened to show up during the explanation of who he was. It desperately needed a "hints you missed" montage right after it happened, with extra shots of Q / Delta actually being in the corner during previous cutscenes or whatever. Linguica fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 19:38
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Momomo posted:He said he didn't give her the memory drugs, not that he didn't knock her out. Sure you can take that as an implication that he did neither, but absence of information is a huge thing in this game. It feels like mira gets knocked or not depending entirely on what is most convenient to the story. When the vote executes q team, she gets knocked out because how else would that collar be applied. In the timeline where they inject themselves with rad 6 she goes loopy because she accidentally gives away that she's off, and goes off to murder d-team in a period where she is supposed to be asleep. ...or maybe the logic is "can do what she wants unless a vote is fatal"?
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Jul 4, 2016 19:38
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I think a better question re: Mira is, how did Zero think to set up the puzzle room involving Junpei's corpse? After Mira did it, did he just quickly improvise something?
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Jul 4, 2016 19:47
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 oh poo poo.Well the corpse has different clothes it... could still be fake? Yeah I'm reaching here.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:53
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Momomo posted:He said he didn't give her the memory drugs, not that he didn't knock her out. Sure you can take that as an implication that he did neither, but absence of information is a huge thing in this game. He exempted her from the usual drug injections. There's no additional qualification if it was just the memory drugs. Mindblast posted:
Eh, most of that puzzle doesn't really rely on Junpei's body at all, so lets go with improvise. He could have reprogrammed the door to a different code and wrote a note about looking at Junpei's arm and hid the body parts in the room. Should be asked in the Q&A though.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:03
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Iirc one of the arms gets thawed so the fist opens and is then used on a scanner. That goes a little beyond improvising.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:07
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He MIND HACKED Mira to do it all. And she went along with it and made a hosed up puzzle.
FruitPunchSamurai fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 20:09
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Mindblast posted:Iirc one of the arms gets thawed so the fist opens and is then used on a scanner. That goes a little beyond improvising. Yeah, I forgot. The password unlocks the hand scanner and you use one of the arms. That's a bit iffier to explain as improvising.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:15
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exploding mummy posted:He exempted her from the usual drug injections. There's no additional qualification if it was just the memory drugs. I'm pretty sure he explicitly says she wasn't given the memory drug, which means he didn't actually say she was never put to sleep. From the sound of it though it seems like we're supposed to ust assume she wasn't though.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:18
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Momomo posted:I'm pretty sure he explicitly says she wasn't given the memory drug, which means he didn't actually say she was never put to sleep. From the sound of it though it seems like we're supposed to ust assume she wasn't though. 
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Jul 4, 2016 20:24
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Linguica posted:I think a better question re: Mira is, how did Zero think to set up the puzzle room involving Junpei's corpse? After Mira did it, did he just quickly improvise something? Didn't he have an army of little Seans to set up and do what he needed?
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Jul 4, 2016 20:27
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Somebody posted the Steam pre-order story on reddit
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Jul 4, 2016 22:50
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voltcatfish posted:Somebody posted the Steam pre-order story on reddit I have the premium booklet if you want screenshots
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Jul 4, 2016 22:53
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NRVNQSR posted:There's also always an evil pharmaceutical company. He really seems to have something against the industry. I think "evil pharmaceutical company" is a really common trope in Japanese fiction, not just with Uchikoshi.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:46
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:I think "evil pharmaceutical company" is a really common trope in Japanese fiction, not just with Uchikoshi. well they're a good way to create a biohazard
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Jul 5, 2016 00:47
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:I think "evil pharmaceutical company" is a really common trope in Japanese fiction, not just with Uchikoshi. Also reality
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Jul 5, 2016 00:49
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exploding mummy posted:C & D teams never immediately recognize Sean. oh yeah I don't think he even knew about Sean so I got no idea what was up with that then. wasn't there some "leftover letters" to that; "LDAET" if the notes I took were correct, what's up with those I guess this post was more about me wondering about some of that anyway. Carlos had the best "What the gently caress have I done" face during that end bit when akane was knocking out junpei though. oh and on the subject of over-analyzing things, I noted the letters that were painted on the column in the anagrams: 'g' and part of the 't' (maybe '-'might be more accurate) were on the C note 'h' and a space ' ' were on Q note 'a' and 'z' were on the D note pretty sure they aren't important in any way, but maybe they could be 
NextTime000 fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 00:49
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Sigma in the pre story and Sigma in the game seem like completely different people
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Jul 5, 2016 00:53
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NextTime000 posted:wasn't there some "leftover letters" to that; "LDAET" if the notes I took were correct, what's up with those DLAET DLEAT DELAT DELTA Linguica fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 00:54
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NextTime000 posted:another thing with the VLR ending; I think Junpei noticed that Q wasn't on the Death Display board right around the time that Akane deciphered the "Together, with me, we are ten" anagram. lets see in "LDAET" you have a "D", an "E", a "L", a "T", and finally an "A" 
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Jul 5, 2016 00:54
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The parts I found most ridiculous were the ones where the characters somehow figured those anagrams out in their head. Also the way they said the time. Nobody says it's "Zero zero zero three".
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Jul 5, 2016 01:02
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Linguica posted:LDAET exploding mummy posted:lets see in "LDAET" you have a "D", an "E", a "L", a "T", and finally an "A" 
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Jul 5, 2016 01:04
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