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Jul 4, 2016 20:38
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. It's that your an rear end in a top hat. you're*
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Jul 4, 2016 20:41
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LuciferMorningstar posted:you're* Goddamnit. It's what I deserve for wading in to shitposts. Keep on keepin' on thread.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:45
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:Goddamnit. I love how you come in here trying to seize some kind of moral high ground and then act surprised by the reception you get.
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Jul 4, 2016 20:57
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I am absolutely not surprised, nor did I expect any change to come. But earlier on the page someone was remarking about how Turnways is the new Tripwire liason and how that sucks for him and I was merely pointing out that it does now more than ever. Apart from several dismissive or defensive responses as of late they've been cool dudes. Hell, this thread got several beta codes something like two weeks in advance thanks to them. However it serves me right since this is SA and goons will be goons.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:04
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LuciferMorningstar posted:"I haven't played and consequently don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to whine about goons being mean anyway. In spite of yet another TWI design decision that made the game less fun, and that was defended fairly profusely by TWI staff, of course." I'm not sure what world you live in where "a company person A works for made a product I own worse, therefore I am justified in throwing abuse at person A" is an okay line of thought to have.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:08
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It's revisionist history anyway. Everyone in this thread was cool, Questioner included, until he made some really bad posts, at which point poo poo happens just like it'd happen if any goon anywhere made a bad post. bfd. I ain't getting into poo poo like TWI losing customer confidence because of the resists debacle because it's not turnways' job, but I appreciate the posts even though I've been thoroughly disillusioned with this game and will actively say not to buy it. Reap what sow, etc. I was fine with Questioner before he posted like a complete shitdick on resistances, and if he feels like coming back I don't plan on holding a grudge, but feel free to try to rewrite history to prove a strawman point, swordsman. Psion fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 21:11
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Lemon-Lime posted:I'm not sure what world you live in where "a company person A works for made a product I own worse, therefore I am justified in throwing abuse at person A" is an okay line of thought to have. drat dude, were you not paying any attention whatsoever when the actual argument was occurring? A clear majority of the (communicative) playerbase almost immediately pointed out that the new resist system was terrible. Here, on Reddit, and on the TWI forums, TWI folks defended the new system on the basis of things like "internal testing." Probably more irritating, though, was that TWI people really made it seem like they didn't (and don't) really care much about feedback, especially when it hurts their feelings. This isn't the first time we've been through something like this, and I doubt it will be the last. In short: Psion posted:It's revisionist history Also, sincerest of lols at people who see Internet slapfights as "abuse" or "toxic," especially on SA of all places.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:18
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It didn't take a genius to figure out the resistance system was completely hosed from the get-go. Within an hour or two of the patch beta dropping, this thread, 4chan's /kfg/, and Reddit's /r/killingfloor/ were talking about how ridiculous the resistances were, like the Stalker taking shotgun blasts like it was a weak gust of wind. One look at the numbers showed how completely hosed the system was; Zerks were rendered useless and most classes were dogshit against most enemies. If there's that much of a universal outcry against something, you drat well better be ready to tackle it seriously instead of blowing it off with "It worked well in internal testing shitlord!!!!11" and "You just haven't played with the new update enough to really see how it is  ", especially when you had no obligation to do so. Don't be surprised that people, from here to /kfg/, start getting snippy at you because you dismissed them as not knowing the subject as well as the developers and testers do or not having suffered through the poorly-designed new system to adju...I mean accept the wisdom behind it. I don't care if you use smart-sounding words like "toxic" in response to the backlash against the comments; dismissing criticisms out-of-hand like that is unacceptable and the response towards such criticisms are completely unsurprising.TWI did try to fix it, but changing resistances to 0.9 instead of removing them seems more like a passive aggressive slap in the face to critics than actually trying to fix it. The whole system should be scrapped, and I'm hoping that the KF2 team eventually gets a change in management that looks at the system again because the current team are idiots. Because of TWI's horribly inept mismanagement of the game as of late, I've moved on to other games; Payday 2 for co-op fun, and Doom 4 for fast monster-blasting. As long as TWI is taking lessons from the David Goldfarb school of how to make a game challenging by making it a chore to play, then I will not support them nor KF2.
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Jul 4, 2016 21:53
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:That's why I'm not defending lovely changes but condemning the competition for king rear end in a top hat. I've seen legit good posts in here with write-ups and ideas that are well reasoned and such but most of them are just personal attacks on dudes who didn't poo poo in your Cheerios.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:14
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Before about a month ago when The Patch hit, we had maybe 1-2 people who sat in the thread and said not-nice things about Tripwire and they were generally laughed at despite mounting evidence that they had a point. Then, with no warning, Tripwire released a patch that made utterly no sense, achieved the opposite of what TW said it would do, and ruined the game. The incompetence, rather than being merely disappointing, has actually been mind-blowing. Questioner reacted to this with some passive-aggressive nonsense, generally the worst way to handle it, and then peaced out, presumably forever. Meanwhile, the game's Steam review score has completely tanked, and every discussion board went negative. KF1 is frankly a much harder and more strategic game than KF2, especially before resistances. Normal on KF1 takes a certain amount of skill and teamwork, and dying is severely punished. KF2 is simply casual, and a lot of the tactical depth of KF1 in regards to how enemies spawn and how welding works is completely lost. In KF2, as long as you stick and move and stay within line of sight of a medic, it's a fairly easy game. If it weren't for ammo problems on Suicidal, even that would be pretty easy. Tripwire definitely wants it to be harder, but doesn't seem to have any solid idea of how to accomplish that without making the game Not Fun.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:28
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If they remove resists from the base survival mode entirely - just flat out say "we're going back to the old soft resist system like husks vs firebug" and push the resists into a separate, parallel Hardcore Survival mode (with HC Normal > HC HOE, the mode giving an xp multiplier over regular Survival as compensation) it's like, a win-win for everyone. TWI doesn't feel like their work is wasted. Players aren't frustrated - whether or not they liked the resists, no less - because right now nobody's happy with watered down resists either making GBS threads up the game or not being resisty enough for the masochists. They can target separate market segments, broadening the appeal. And let's not pretend it wouldn't buy back some goodwill, which got well-deservedly loving savaged lately. like this is literally have your cake and eat it too territory. I don't know anything about pvp because I don't give a single gently caress about it but let's assume it'd be improved somehow by doing this also. so, odds on it happening?  OneThousandMonkeys posted:Tripwire definitely wants it to be harder, but doesn't seem to have any solid idea of how to accomplish that without making the game Not Fun. I think we could have a productive discussion on difficulty if the foundation of the game were as solid as it was before this patch. But right now the gunfeel - remember, the gunfeel they tout on their own EA page - is trash. They hosed up the one thing they had down cold perfect from day one. I think a two-prong approach of More Zeds (giving you more ammo pressure) and different zeds (requiring different tactics and providing more soft-resist opportunities for class diversity) would be an excellent start, but without fixing the still-extant problems plaguing every single player interaction in every single game against every enemy, it's pointless to really speculate further. because, in short, I agree with you. Difficulty is meaningless if it's frustrating difficulty, instead of challenging difficulty. The distinction is sometimes hard to see, but not in this case. Psion fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jul 4, 2016 |
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Jul 4, 2016 22:34
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Insert name here posted:Legit question but what, in your opinion, constitutes a personal attack? Because as far as I recall no one actually insulted questioner specifically, they insulted the post(s) he made, a subtle but distinct difference. Or is "personal attack" internet shorthand for "someone disagreed with me"? Poor word choice. No one (as far as I've read, I went back and reread a few pages) said anything disparaging about him personally or Turnways. I mean more in the sense that they attacked him personally because he was the only contact with the company they had. It makes some sense as the official forums are a (currently out of order) nebulous thing you just throw critique on to and you're drowned out by the CONSTANT screaming idiots that beg for the game to be harder. But the constant stream of poo poo directed squarely at him for something he had nothing to do with was ridiculous and made the thread a pain to read for literal pages. It didn't help he fired back but I can completely get why in his situation he would feel defensive about the issue.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:42
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Questioner, please come back to us. We're sorry we were childish and mean to you. If you come back, Dark_Swordmaster will suck your dick. He swallows.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 4, 2016 22:47
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I still say a beta server would help a lot to alleviate the issues, get these updates out there and people messing around them BEFORE you toss them onto the general populace.
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Jul 4, 2016 23:18
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It seems to me that TWI's ultimate goal is to make the player weak in order to make the game difficult. First the resistances and class reworks in one patch, then the dosh nerf that got somewhat reverted, all of which made the player significantly weaker. That's a terrible idea because it's not fun when you feel weak as poo poo against enemies. The real goal for challenge should be more enemies, better tactics for enemies, and enemy layouts that make them work better together, not making the player as weak as a fart. KF1 managed to make things difficult, even with it's powerful classes and weapons.
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Jul 4, 2016 23:23
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Hell the PvP mode has stuff they could integrate into the main game to make things harder. Have bloats spawn in weird locations and have them puke up mines as long as a player isn't within their line of sight, that way when you're kiting you might run into a nasty surprise. Give some crawlers a different color and when you kill that particular crawler he's gonna explode and leave that damaging cloud. Make a new zed that disrupts the group to prevent camping, KF1 had a modded one called the brute that did just that, it was WAY to tanky but something like that could work, just having him rush you constantly.
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Jul 5, 2016 01:01
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Hang on resistances are still in? I checked up on the thread expecting it to have all blown over by now.
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Jul 5, 2016 12:40
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dogstile posted:Hang on resistances are still in? I checked up on the thread expecting it to have all blown over by now. They are but they're significantly less worse now. The things that were torn apart like paper are still torn apart (IE Gorefasts are ripped to shreds by shotguns and Stalkers still die in one shot to Commando weapons) but the dumb stuff is less dumb now. Stalkers are still a bit annoying but other than that, resistances are just minor annoyances.
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Jul 5, 2016 13:03
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I mean I actually like and am a big proponent of this game, but I'm also an adult with limited time to put into video games and if the developers insist on adding pointlessly frustrating things to their game, I just will stop playing it. And as a KF1 vet it pains me to say that. I like Killing Floor because I love the idea of a fun squad based shooter with satisfying, intricate gunplay with a good level of depth and coordination inherently necessary to survive. I liked all the dumb poo poo about KF1 like having to take your knife out to run faster and all the "combos", and yes, even mysteriously reappearing infinitely weld able doors. I feel like a lot of design decisions were made to specifically NOT be like KF1 when honestly, KF1 updated for a new engine + the wonderful level of map and gun and character support KF1 received even towards the end of its lifespan set an incredibly high bar that made me buy KF2 at launch. I don't know where things changed but at some point balance became more important than fun. There's unbalanced poo poo in every game. If it's not totally game breaking, though, it's usually what keeps the hardcore players interested, finding and messing around with glitches that new players don't know, and getting really good at the deep mechanics of the game. Smash Bros. Melee isn't balanced at all, but it's also had a 15-year lifespan with some of the hardest hardcore supporters around. I'm not trying to tell Tripwire how to make their game, but all the infinite reworks, the obsessive rebalancing, it's just frustrating when all anyone wants is new systems, maps and content to keep the game fresh, interesting, but still a straightforward evolution of the KF1 formula. I don't know where I'm going with this but if you had told me months ago that I'd put KF2 down for as long as I have I'd say you're crazy. Alas, if only I knew.
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Jul 5, 2016 17:19
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Also balance is inherently less important in coop. If something is a bit stronger that doesn't mean they steam roll over players like in vs games.
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Jul 5, 2016 17:39
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It depends on difficulty and playercount, but I would say you're probably underestimating them as minor, theta zero - each individual instance, perhaps, but when you're dealing with that poo poo a couple hundred times a game? But that's tangential, really. why I really think they need to go is less how bad they are mechanically and much more how poisonously they went over, and this is something I still do not believe Tripwire understands. "We worked hard on them" "we thought you'd like them," "this was our original vision for the stalker" and all these things - it says to me they developed this idea in a vacuum and gave zero thought to how they'd present it to their players. How they'd get their playerbase to understand the changes and be enthusiastic about them instead of feeling like the rug just got pulled out from under their feet. like the stalker thing - "oh yeah, this was our vision from KF1, we just never made it happen" ... well, okay. KF1 came out in 2009. It's 2016. That means for seven years and two games, people have expectations and understanding about stalkers. changing that with zero warning and zero explanation? That's ridiculous to think even for a minute it'd go over well - look at all that accumulated knowledge and player expectation you just overturned without a word. Who the gently caress thinks that's a good idea? It's killing floor 2. There are expectations there. Work with them, don't be proud of ignoring them. I'd like to compare this again to Overkill, makers of a popular co-op shooter game you may have heard of. Maybe take a look at their playercounts after announcing the complete removal of an unpopular change they foisted on the playerbase with zero warning. And at least the MTs had the decency to be made mechanically irrelevant, unlike this resistance system. i'd also like to point out that for all Overkill hosed their gameplay balance with the crimefest 2015 rebalance they learned the right goddamn lessons and turned the game around to be more fun, more accessible, and more of a great experience than it ever was before, so it's not like this is beyond Tripwire to do. overkill hosed up, congratulations, you did too. Overkill fixed their problems and made their game exceptional. You can too. ...maybe. e: also some really fine points made by posters above me here. Psion fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 17:41
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Yes, I do feel that this last round of balances (and the suggested re-work of the Firebug and Medic perks in their forums) is just tweaking mechanics for the sake of tweaking them, rather than adding anything to the game.
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Jul 5, 2016 17:41
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Can you elaborate on the Payday did bad and what they fixed? I stopped following years ago but recently came back to a FAR better game than I left.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:07
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:I mean I actually like and am a big proponent of this game, but I'm also an adult with limited time to put into video games and if the developers insist on adding pointlessly frustrating things to their game, I just will stop playing it. And as a KF1 vet it pains me to say that. I like Killing Floor because I love the idea of a fun squad based shooter with satisfying, intricate gunplay with a good level of depth and coordination inherently necessary to survive. I liked all the dumb poo poo about KF1 like having to take your knife out to run faster and all the "combos", and yes, even mysteriously reappearing infinitely weld able doors. I feel like a lot of design decisions were made to specifically NOT be like KF1 when honestly, KF1 updated for a new engine + the wonderful level of map and gun and character support KF1 received even towards the end of its lifespan set an incredibly high bar that made me buy KF2 at launch. Many of the eccentric gameplay elements of KF1 are holdovers from gaming in the late 90's and KF1's shoestring production value. While it's foolish to expect all of it to return, it has a certain charm. And PVE that's imbalanced toward players is inherently more fun than the opposite. KF1 tended to be a little bit more mobile in play (at least in my experience), while KF2 is about gigantic maps that you play 10% of. Very rarely do I play even a custom that forces you to move around.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:13
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I too am more interested in more content. More weapons and monsters and maps. I personally don't feel a need to nickel and dime the balance in a PVE game.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:17
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:Can you elaborate on the Payday did bad and what they fixed? I stopped following years ago but recently came back to a FAR better game than I left. yeah, I can give you the summary version. I think it's been discussed here and in the Payday thread in detail, but: Crimefest 2 was a community event based on building hype - unlock challenges to get stuff. Day one of the thing, they spring a surprise weapon rebalance and microtransactions on the community. To say this went over badly is something of an understatement. Overkill got loving wrecked for it, including a huge brigade of bad steam reviews. Sounds familiar, right? Overkill probably did one of the best turnarounds I've ever seen after it. They started making changes two days in and kept going. They've had a long and continued period of discussion with the community about almost every aspect of the gameplay - they've overhauled almost everything: Weapon balance, perk decks, skill trees, you name it - we're talking weeks to months worth of discussion, proposed ideas, feedback gathering, and open betas. Long ones, too, so people have a chance to give good feedback and Overkill has time to implement it. They're some of the most successful open betas I've seen. Another point I want to emphasize here: They also wanted to redo the main menu. They came up with a concept, even ran an open beta about that. Beta feedback was that nobody really liked the changes. The main menu did not change in the live branch. all the while, of course, they were adding new heists, new characters, new weapons, new content of almost all types.
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Jul 5, 2016 18:36
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Psion posted:yeah, I can give you the summary version. Note: As a result of this (and having a much deeper game), Payday 2's active community has historically been much larger than KF2's, despite Payday 2 being much older and KF2 matching Payday 2's player base for brief periods. http://steamcharts.com/cmp/218620,232090#All
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Jul 5, 2016 18:44
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I haven't played for like 9 months and there is only one thing I care about: Is PhysX gore back?
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Jul 5, 2016 18:50
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There were also the release day problems that they've since fixed. A lot of them were (sometimes unfairly) blamed on one member of the development, David Goldfarb. He had an off-hand comment in an interview where he said he wanted the game to be "The Dark Souls of <its kind>" or whatever. This possibly resulted in the game having some frustrating RNG, missions that were tepid concept-wise (blow up a massive bridge in PD1, smash-and-grab jewelry in 2 for example) and a really slow progression grind. He may have gotten too much flak, but it says a lot that very shortly after he started leaving, Overkill eased up on player punishment and started escalating things. The other thing was Overkill's "hype marketing" that they were pulling off for a long time. They were just trying to hype up every DLC pack, update, and event. People say Crimefest 2 broke the camel's back, but I think it was really set up by the previous Hype Train event, which gave rewards to players if the team reached certain fundraising goals (selling a certain number of DLC or games made by friendly companies). The thing was so ridiculously overblown, and in the end, the majority of content we got was a pretty wet fart (save for Bonnie, who owns). Crimefest 2's rewards were unlocked by completing in-game challenges like killing certain numbers of cops. The one got completed at the last moment after ridiculous grinding turned out to be the one that "unlocked" microtransactions on Day 1 of the event. The attitude of TWI changing recently is promising and welcome, but I still have problems, the most with their stats-gathering. I doubled my playtime after the update. As really frustrating and dumb as the resistances were, I was at least glad that Hans wasn't breaking and chain-killing people with his melee and his changes are actually really fun. As it stands, though, I don't regularly want to play the game in a state that seems dedicated to a really boneheaded mechanic and the fact that they again promised to start upping Zed and boss damage. That, and the game is back beneath the Steam Top 100 again with probably the same people who want every Zed to one-hit kill you being part of the stats gathering. Unless I see something really interesting and promising, I see KF2 being a game to point at when it comes to the problem of EA, the big one being that its full release is going to be hindered by the fact that it's had over a year in the sun. What could the full release possibly bring us? Plan Z fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 19:12
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Plan Z posted:What could the full release possibly bring us?
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Jul 5, 2016 19:23
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My fear is that Tripwire will listen to the "hArDkOrE" people that have like 100 hours but have never played past Hard (You know who I'm talking about) instead of the people that want to buff weak perks and make the classes more enjoyable and the zeds more fun to fight. Tripwire has shown signs that it's more interested in making the game more of a chore to play in an attempt at appealing to diehard players instead of actually making it enjoyable, so I don't have much hope they'll make choices that'll make the game more fun to play.
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Jul 5, 2016 20:06
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closeted republican posted:My fear is that Tripwire will listen to the "hArDkOrE" people that have like 100 hours but have never played past Hard (You know who I'm talking about) instead of the people that want to buff weak perks and make the classes more enjoyable and the zeds more fun to fight. Tripwire has shown signs that it's more interested in making the game more of a chore to play in an attempt at appealing to diehard players instead of actually making it enjoyable, so I don't have much hope they'll make choices that'll make the game more fun to play. I hate to break it to you but these players already work at Tripwire.
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Jul 5, 2016 20:42
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ClonedPickle posted:I hate to break it to you but these players already work at Tripwire. I'm still holding out hope, goddamnit. 
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Jul 5, 2016 20:50
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closeted republican posted:My fear is that Tripwire will listen to the "hArDkOrE" people that have like 100 hours but have never played past Hard (You know who I'm talking about) instead of the people that want to buff weak perks and make the classes more enjoyable and the zeds more fun to fight. Tripwire has shown signs that it's more interested in making the game more of a chore to play in an attempt at appealing to diehard players instead of actually making it enjoyable, so I don't have much hope they'll make choices that'll make the game more fun to play. We eventually got an actual playable Demo class, and now that resistances are mostly gone, the counter-intuitive "hit everything with a direct hit if you want to actually damage it" thing is mostly gone too.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:20
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Psion posted:yeah, I can give you the summary version.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:34
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closeted republican posted:My fear is that Tripwire will listen to the "hArDkOrE" people that have like 100 hours but have never played past Hard (You know who I'm talking about) instead of the people that want to buff weak perks and make the classes more enjoyable and the zeds more fun to fight. Tripwire has shown signs that it's more interested in making the game more of a chore to play in an attempt at appealing to diehard players instead of actually making it enjoyable, so I don't have much hope they'll make choices that'll make the game more fun to play. It feels like these sorts of things are being worked on by separate teams. I'm most likely 99% wrong, but things have been working out like "alright, this group works on difficulty, and this group works on class balancing" because you'll have some patch that buffs berzerker but is immediately followed by some difficulty tweak that completely leaves berzerker in the dust. The difference between feature/power/reverse power creep and balancing lies in implementation of content on top of mechanics. Payday 2 had a problem with power creep in that they start adding more powerful skills and weapons to DLC while lots of weapons and skills got left in the dust. Would you rather use this flamethrower that can easily kill basic cops and shielded enemies and completely immobilize every other enemy, or use this assault rifle that hasn't been touched balance-wise since release? Well that's awesome too and oh here's an RPG that can one hit kill anything in the game in its splash radius that you can take instead of a pistol or shotgun. They're balanced because you have to re-stock their ammo from bags. Eventually they realized the game at launch was a very different one. These creeps were brought in by the fact that the game was very different, so they rebuilt skills and weapons to bring everything in line to where the game was, and it worked well. As far as EA goes, games like Flame in the Flood and Darkest Dungeon were EA success stories because they had a base game that worked very well. You could tell where they wanted to go with the game, and any features or content added molded very well into that bedrock idea of how the game worked. KF2 has felt very "loose" for a while now. When I first got it, it was an impressive EA game. It felt like they just needed to balance enemies and then start bringing in the content like classes and maps once the game was released, because I realize as technology gets further up there, it's harder to maintain levels of content. I think this is where the feedback became a problem, because many people didn't consider the game 100% ready without this group of content that would take quite a lot of dev resources to implement, and that the game was unplayable if each successive difficulty didn't meet their hardcore needs. It's kind of lovely to say "don't listen to that feedback, listen to ours," but when one side is impossible to please and results in bloated development time and the other wants to see wrinkles ironed out to get the game into a polished release state, I feel like the latter is better to listen to. It doesn't seem unreasonable that the game we had over a year ago could have been tightened up and released, with classes coming later to keep the game interesting as people maxed out progression or got tired of the current classes. As it stands, we have people who have maxed out every class and have broken the difficulties before release. TL; DR more dumbass nerd ramblings from a guy who worked on like two Half Life mods in high school and has done alpha testing of indie games. Plan Z fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 21:38
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Insert name here posted:Another thing about Overkill is that while they obviously try to keep their game balanced, it very much feels like they lean towards players having fun over an optimal balanced experience or whatever. This is actually something I felt KF1 did as well with all the crazy weapons they added to that, which is why KF2's obsessiveness over "balance" is doubly frustrating. I agree. As others have said, pinpoint balance isn't really all that needed in a co-op shooter because of the unpredictable nature of both enemy formations and player skill. You can easily cruise through a Suicidal game because of a good team, but then struggle in a Hard game because of poor teammates and some unexpected enemy formations the team was unable to handle, then wipe in a Suicidal game with a good team because of something like a double Fleshpound spawn at a bad time. I think controlled power creep with rebalancing old weapons actually helps make co-op games more fun, despite the whining from hardcore players. If you played KF1 at launch like I did, it was a mess because most of your classes were weak as poo poo. A lot of vital tools, like almost all of the assault rifles and the medic SMGs, were missing. The intended power weapon, the LAW, wasn't the Fleshpound and Patty killer it was intended to be. It could be pretty annoying to play at times. However, with updates, they added more powerful weapons that made the game more and more fun. The challenge was still there, but it was a lot more fun than at launch. closeted republican fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 21:49
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closeted republican posted:I agree. As others have said, pinpoint balance isn't really all that needed in a co-op shooter What does pinpoint balance even mean, really? I feel like this is a question that everyone forgets in these discussions. The reality, in my opinion, is that there is no such thing. Balance is largely arbitrary. If you want to talk about balance in a narrow sense, then sure, it's more comprehensible. If two weapons cost the same, but one is better in every way, they're not balanced. But in terms of a whole system? Impossible to really evaluate, since there's no universal standard. Consequently, I figure it's best to just let players make that decision for themselves. Allow for a bunch of game options (enemy health scaling, damage scaling, resistances, etc.), and let groups decide what they want to do. Make some presets for people who don't care, and lock achievements behind "the developer vision."
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Jul 5, 2016 22:43
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While I can agree that instnantly killing a boss the second he appears with pre placed explosives is a bit much, or that killing a 6 man HoE pound by jump shotting with a boomstick twice is a bit much... Tripwire often seems intent to take that ball, run with it, and beat the concession stand guy to death with it. Much like this analogy. I want to sass people upset you can't kill a 6 man solo HoE point with 2 crossbow bolts. Not have to explain why needing multiple headshots to kill a gorefast with any perk weapon isn't fun or satisfying.
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Jul 6, 2016 01:19
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