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Kim Jong Il posted:I'm arguing every single point tirelessly and have never said that anyone who disagrees with me is inherently racist. Bullshit. You constantly post really loving stupid claims, then when you're called out on it you stop posting and return a few days later with some other completely ridiculous claims. If you disagree I'm willing to backtrack and quote posts to prove this because I know I've been on the receiving end of you making retarded claims of racism and then running off when called out on it, never to defend your accusations. In fact the one time I can remember you sticking around and trying to defend a point, which was trying to argue about BDS and some writers being racist a few weeks ago, you got probated because all you were doing continually was hurling unevidenced accusations. All you do is poo poo and run. When you forget to run, you get probated. I mean poo poo, in this post itself you've stated that "I'm arguing every single point tirelessly" you've only quoted and responded to half of my post. Blatantly wrong. quote:No, it's driven by their beliefs that Israelis must be ethnically cleansed. The equivalents of Kahane have wide and powerful traction on the Palestinian side, and it's handwaved away as "legitimate resistance" when it's nothing of the sort. This maximalist belief, that Israel must be eliminated, is not the official position of the Palestinian Authority, but it is widely believed and supported. I'd argue that while Omar Barghouti and his movement don't explicitly call for this, it's an inevitable end result of their platform. They're not calling for ending settlements, because in their policy of dismissing "collaborationists" they reject the only possible path for ending settlements. They're calling for policies that will lead to wide scale ethnic cleansing and likely genocide. No, it's driven by the fact that Israel is literally progressing a slow campaign of ethnic cleansing against Palestinians right now and has been for decades. You seem to think you magically have the power to peer into the minds of all the militants in all the different militant groups - as well as those who act alone - and have come to the conclusion that you can magically divine their motives for their actions and gee whiz it just so happens they all have the same homogenous hive mind like drive for their actions. Please share with us how you've done this because at the moment you not only sound like a massive loving idiot for making this claim, but also like a racist seeing as you seem to be treating all the Palestinians as if they don't have individual agency and are all inherently genocidal. Meanwhile, Israel's policies have been literally enacting a slow ethnic cleansing for decades. You could have a soldier that believes in racial harmony and unity and that the only way to get there in the long run is by the measures Israel is taking to crush palestinian resistance. You could have a soldier who hates all Arabs and wants them to die. You could have one who's just doing their job. It doesn't matter and I don't need to know about the personal motives of the people behind the actions because the actual action itself is ethnic loving cleansing so it's clear and not really debatable that they're progressing ethnic cleansing, there's no need for the divining and guessing of the strategic objective of a diverse collection of individuals and groups. In short, your claims are ridiculous because they rely on the ability to see into the souls of men. My claims are solid because they rely on the fact that Israel has been literally ethnically cleansing the Palestinians for years so I don't need to read minds. Also, even among the likes of Hamas, that isn't some view they all hold. Not only are there moderates who want to negotiate peace and think they're held back by the more extremists, but ethnic cleansing isn't even the official position of the extremists in Hamas. The Hamas Charter talks about reclaiming the land of Palestine, but also living in peace with all religions. Gotta be embarrassing for Israel when the official stated position of Islamic militants extremists is less extreme and war crimey than Israel's actual enacted policies. quote:That's a strawman. People like Ytlaya are saying Palestinian racism is acceptable and not a big deal. Ytlaya actually said that all forms of racism are wrong. Care to quote where they said others? If I look back through the posts what they actually said is that some forms of racism is worse than others, a fairly obvious and bland statement which seems self-evident seeing as (for example) racist name-calling isn't as bad as a racist genocide. quote:What percentage of Palestinians believe that no Jews should live in the West Bank? What percentage of them believe that no Jews should live anywhere where they have irredentist claims? That's ethnic supremacism. I've solely criticized this wide scale irredentism, not legitimate desire to end occupation, checkpoints, and illegal settlements. No-one knows because I don't believe it has ever been polled. However a lot of Palestinians would be open to it. In polls generally around 30%ish of Palestinians would support a one-state solution with equal rights for Jews and Palestinian which de facto accepts the Jews in the West Bank. That provides a fraction of the total because it doesn't include those who support a two-state solution but are happy for ethnic/religious diversity including Jews, which would have to be added to that 30% but where the totals aren't known. All we known is that at the very very least a sizable minority and possibly a majority would support Jews in the West Bank. Not to mention, this is their feelings now after decades of persecution which is still currently ongoing. Public perception can change quickly when two countries aren't fighting each other and they have a peaceful status quo to adopt. Of course, none of that matters because you missed the point. Some Palestinians will be racist. That does not mean racism is the underlying cause of Palestinian violence because Israel's decades long occupation is the root cause of the violence. Hell, the occupation will be the underlying cause for the racism too - unless you're going to claim racism is genetic rather than a personal attribute developed over time in which case, hmmm, can you possibly think of which key environmental factor might cause people to resent and hate Israel when they grow up? Maybe the decades long occupation and oppression by Israel? However you get there, whatever personal rationale people have for the violence whether it's based on a desire for freedom or racism (or perhaps even a mix of the two as Palestinians aren't simplistic one dimensional caricatures only capable of having one motivation and feeling!?!?!?) the occupation is the root cause. quote:I've condemned Israel when it's made mistakes I highly doubt this. Can you quote a single time in this entire thread where you've criticised Israel? Note I don't mean individual Israelis that have done or said something lovely things, even ministers like going "Netanyahu sucks" or whatever, but the actual actions and policies of Israel as a nation nation like the killing of innocent, the ethnic cleansing, the drive for ethnic purity, etc? Is there even one example of you doing this? I mean the only thing kind of relevant I can give you is an example of you outright refusing to condemn racist behaviour by Israelis as racist when asked to by me which is the opposite of what you now try to claim. Thinking back and looking through your posts, I can't remember or see so much as a "You know, I think maybe Israel's campaign of ethnic cleansing might be wrong" from you. Parts Kit posted:You guys kind of conveniently ignore the whole "drive Israel into the sea" thing, huh? A yes, a statement made by an Egyptian who has been dead for decades and whose country now works with Israel. Obviously very relevant and we should therefore ignore the actual ethnic cleansing being committed against the Palestinians right now in favour of this hypothetical alternate history ethnic cleansing from decades ago because........?
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Jul 3, 2016 19:07
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Parts Kit posted:Recognize that the problem is rooted in both sides and combat it instead of going "this side bad, other side justified" ? Because the reality is this poo poo isn't going to stop until both sides decide to put down their hate. You're using rhetoric from a half century old war to justify modern isreali war crimes and don't understand analogies. This 'both sides' stuff has been repeatedly shown to be a lovely excuse to keep the status quo of gradual genocide of the Palestinian people by Israel going.
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Jul 3, 2016 19:07
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Suppose you are walking down the streets of Gaza City and you come upon two youths locked in a struggle. Conveniently one is clad in an IDF uniform while the other wears a green headband. As you cautiously move towards them to inspect the situation, you notice that the Israeli soldier has the Palestinian in a firm chokehold. The Palestinian's face is noticeably turning blue, his eyes are glazing, but his limbs trash about erratically. Occasionally a fingernail scratches the Israeli's face, or an elbow bruises his ribs. This startles the Israeli, allowing the Palestinian to steal a small gasp of air. But otherwise the Israeli maintains his firm submission hold. After watching for what seems like decades, you address the Israeli: "Sir, could you not let this man go?" The Israeli replies: "I would like to let him go, but I obviously cannot until he completely stops resisting."
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Jul 3, 2016 19:52
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Alternate ending: You walk past the two youths, roll your eyes, and think to yourself:Baloogan posted:Israelis and Palestinians should stop killing each other.
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Jul 3, 2016 19:53
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You say to yourself, Jews are an oppressed people, and have a historical connection to the land of Palestine, plus you wouldn't want to give refuge to the dreaded left-wing antisemitism. You keep walking
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Jul 3, 2016 20:03
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Kim Jong Il posted:That's a strawman. People like Ytlaya are saying Palestinian racism is acceptable and not a big deal. I've condemned Israel when it's made mistakes, I've merely demanded the same consistency and for upholding international law, norms, and consensus here. It can't be these concepts matter when you agree with their end result, then you can conveniently ignore them when they don't. No, I am perfectly agreeable to condemning the Palestinian state for its breaches of international laws, but it turns out that there are no such thing as a Palestinian state. Palestinian racism against Israeli is a problem that will only be possible to actually address once the root cause of Palestinian resentment against Israeli is over. If a peaceful solution is ever reached, then it'll remain to see how much of the freed and enfranchised Palestinian population still flock to the flag of racist organizations. In the meantime, Israel has to stop occupying and confiscating and all-around oppressing. The call for all Palestinians to become perfect angels of infinite selflessness as a sine qua non precondition for Israel to even deign starting to think about whether maybe they might be given some sort of token sample of their inalienable human rights is nothing but a transparent ploy for "let's keep oppressing Palestinians until they all disappear". "Oh deary me, both sides are bad! Therefore we have to let the status quo keep on status quoing instead of doing something to put an end to an immoral situation!"
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Jul 3, 2016 20:42
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icantfindaname posted:SS commandos were accountable to their superior officers and to the German general staff. Therefore, Nazis did nothing wrong Cat Mattress posted:Palestine is in a state of surrender; the Palestinian authority is submissive and collaborative. What more do you want? For every single Palestinian to pledge their life to the service of an Israeli master, calling them "Bwana" and licking their shoes clean every night? Palestinian terrorist groups appear because the endless oppression is intolerable and they don't see anything else they could do. Kajeesus posted:I'm pretty sure that's exactly the issue with the illegal occupation. Israel is currently having it both ways because they have deliberately refrained from defining the occupation. "Well at least half of what they're doing must be legitimate" is exactly the kind of bullshit reasoning that has allowed it to continue for so long, and I'm frankly flabbergasted that you would sincerely argue this. Kajeesus posted:Just to be clear, are you of the position that any resistance movement is invalid and legitimizes groups like ISIS if it opposes a state sanctioned force with violent means, but can't expect to effect meaningful change? ANIME AKBAR posted:Suppose you are walking down the streets of Gaza City and you come upon two youths locked in a struggle. Conveniently one is clad in an IDF uniform while the other wears a green headband. As you cautiously move towards them to inspect the situation, you notice that the Israeli soldier has the Palestinian in a firm chokehold. The Palestinian's face is noticeably turning blue, his eyes are glazing, but his limbs trash about erratically. Occasionally a fingernail scratches the Israeli's face, or an elbow bruises his ribs. This startles the Israeli, allowing the Palestinian to steal a small gasp of air. But otherwise the Israeli maintains his firm submission hold.
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Jul 3, 2016 21:11
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Israel doesn't have the right to exist. States don't have rights, individuals do
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Jul 3, 2016 21:23
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Dead Reckoning posted:You're trying to set up this situation where Israel has all the responsibilities of an occupying power, but any time they try to exercise the rights afforded to an occupying power, they're in the wrong, because the occupation is illegal in your opinion.
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Jul 3, 2016 21:40
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Doesn't make it illegal tho.
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Jul 3, 2016 21:44
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Nevvy Z posted:You're using rhetoric from a half century old war to justify modern isreali war crimes and don't understand analogies. and major  at whatever lunatic thinks I hate folks who aren't white or am okay with rape. See a doctor, the voices are in your head.
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Jul 3, 2016 21:53
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Parts Kit posted:If Israel stopped pulling their poo poo the bombings and rocket attacks would not stop because the people behind these attacks hate Israel and want it to cease existing. If the people behind the bombings and rocket attacks stopped Israel would still keep on advancing as they clearly don't give a gently caress given they're still advancing anyways. So yeah, it really does have to come from both sides. Please tell us more about how Palestinians are inherently savage and warlike and their actions, unlike those of everyone else in the human race, aren't affected by their circumstances and situation. Edit: Also why of course your same criticisms don't apply to the Israelis hating and killing Palestinians.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:Except that the prelude to this was that the Israeli and the Palestinian were trying to kill the poo poo out of each other, and every time someone asks the Palestinian of he will attack the Israeli again if he lets him go, the Palestinian says that final status questions like whether or not the Israeli should be killed cannot be addressed until the Israeli releases him and gives him back his knife. I agree, third parties should intervene to stop both sides of this conflict from killing one another.
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Jul 3, 2016 23:08
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Dead Reckoning posted:The Palestinian authorities have never surrendered, though. No Palestinian leadership has ever recognized Israel's right to exist on its own terms, or otherwise take the actions that would be considered surrender in the normal sense. Compliance isn't the same thing. Yeah, the "right to exist on its own terms" because just them recognizing Israel's right to exist isn't enough, they have to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state for Jews only. Because the minority Arab population of Israel need to be told by their occupied brethren that they aren't legitimate citizens. Good thing President Trump will come soon to let us see how the rest of the world recognize the USA's right to exist as a White-only nation, just to get a point of reference. And what are the other actions they need to take for the surrender to be formal?
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Jul 3, 2016 23:19
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Dead Reckoning posted:Except that the prelude to this was that the Israeli and the Palestinian were trying to kill the poo poo out of each other, and every time someone asks the Palestinian of he will attack the Israeli again if he lets him go, the Palestinian says that final status questions like whether or not the Israeli should be killed cannot be addressed until the Israeli releases him and gives him back his knife. "Like I said before, I would like to let him go, but I obviously cannot until he completely stops resisting."
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Jul 3, 2016 23:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:Actually, an instructive example. SS officers who committed war crimes were tried in their individual capacity, and their leadership was tried under the theory of command responsibility; the authorities they were answerable to were accountable for their actions. The vast majority of Wehrmacht were not punished, despite being under the command of the same leadership. On the other hand, guerrillas and francs tireurs were subject to execution upon capture, and the Nuremberg trials found that there was no criminal action by those who ordered and carried out such executions. You previously just said that Israel is accountable regardless of the fact that there is no international body it reports to (although you offered no actual reason why that was the case). Your explanation here relies on how Nazi Germany was accountable (in the end) to an international body which judged the crimes it had committed and punished perpetrators. Your rebuttal is mutually exclusive with your original point. quote:The Palestinian authorities have never surrendered, though. No Palestinian leadership has ever recognized Israel's right to exist on its own terms, or otherwise take the actions that would be considered surrender in the normal sense. Compliance isn't the same thing. Israel has never declared war on Palestine or asked for Palestine's surrender. Israel hasn't even confirmed what the borders of it's own country are so as to create ambiguity. These benchmarks are meaningless. Israel has never asked for a surrender and it would mean nothing if it got one. quote:You're trying to set up this situation where Israel has all the responsibilities of an occupying power, but any time they try to exercise the rights afforded to an occupying power, they're in the wrong, because the occupation is illegal in your opinion. You're ignorant and seem to be deliberately misinterpreting what several people have spelt out for very clearly at this stage. Israel is the occupying power and is committing war crimes by going far far beyond the scope of what is permissible. It is not the right of Israel of an occupying to slaughter Palestinian citizens, collectively punish them, deny them basic human rights, torture them, etc, etc, etc. quote:"Resistance movement" is a slippery term that can mean a lot of things, and a movement might be composed of multiple groups, some of whom take morally justified actions, and some of whom take actions that are immoral. To be clear, I think that violence by unlawful combatants and deliberate targeting of civilians are always wrong. That isn't what you were asked. The question was: "are you of the position that any resistance movement is invalid and legitimizes groups like ISIS if it opposes a state sanctioned force with violent means, but can't expect to effect meaningful change?" Also the possibility for a group to sometimes take actions that are within the confines of military law and sometimes break those laws does not make "resistance movement" a slippery term. The same possibility applies to literally every single military force on the entire planet. Any potential military force that has existed or does exist or could exist will be comprised of people, with the potential that "some of whom take morally justified actions, and some of whom take actions that are immoral". It's an utterly irrelevant basis to make such a dismissal. quote:Except that the prelude to this was that the Israeli and the Palestinian were trying to kill the poo poo out of each other, and every time someone asks the Palestinian of he will attack the Israeli again if he lets him go, the Palestinian says that final status questions like whether or not the Israeli should be killed cannot be addressed until the Israeli releases him and gives him back his knife. Poor analogy. You invoke the idea that Palestine is an existential threat to Israel, which is laughable considering the power differential.
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Jul 4, 2016 00:19
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If people are really that worried about civilians being targeted in the I/P conflict they should take away Israel's weapons of war
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Jul 4, 2016 01:43
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Byolante posted:If people are really that worried about civilians being targeted in the I/P conflict they should take away Israel's weapons of war
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Jul 4, 2016 03:01
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Ultramega posted:It was brave to stand up to antisemites in 1938, in 2016? You are conveying the opinion that it is not brave to stand up to antisemites in 2016. That's the barely implicit message in your rhetorical question, I just want to make it explicit. quote:It's sort of a given that the majority of the world's population are not antisemitic.. This is a bizarre statement. The ADL, which polls pretty regularly on this kind of stuff, finds about 26% of the population holds antisemitic beliefs, although it varies greatly by region. Are you really suggesting that antisemitism should be dismissed as a problem because the less than a literal majority of humans on earth are antisemitic? quote:Unless of course you start dredging up poo poo like ethnic biotruths like how arabs are irrationally hateful toward jews or some other nationalist chauvinist talking points Chauvinistic nationalism by which nationals? And isn't this just another form of "the real problem today isn't racism, it's reverse racism"?
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Jul 4, 2016 04:59
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Cugel the Clever posted:Anyone have good details on just how much Elie Wiesel came to champion the very genocidal ethnic supremacy he once wrote elegantly against? There's outrage among certain groups on Twitter over Max Blumenthal's unwillingness to whitewash what the man became. If half of what I've read is accurate, whatever great man Wiesel once was died years ago—ignoring the man he became does injury to the message he once championed. It's easy to criticize the racism and xenophobia of other cultures, especially when it's directed at you, without actually internalizing any greater message. See also Europeans who act enlightened and above racism because they can point out America's problems, but completely buy into their own societies forms of otherism. Or the current state of pretty much every other group that's suffered ethnic cleansing. While members of the diaspora tend to be pretty socially aware and active in all the good movements, Armenia itself is a hotbed of lovely regressive attitudes. Chechnyan society would be tragically broken even if they weren't still under Moscows boot. Wiesel had fairly understandable reasons for taking things personally instead of intellectually or morally, he actually experienced the Holocaust, but it was still pretty awful to witness. Unlike Black Separatist movements, his own ruthless self-obsessed paranoia wasn't relegated to being a mostly humorous quirk that you could laugh at because Wiesels lovely beliefs had political, social, and military power backing it up. And more distressing to me isn't him being suckered into his societies shittier aspects (that's a fairly mundane human flaw), it's that he would support and endorse any monstrous foreign dictator as long as they paid lipservice to Israel. Dude became what was basically the Zionist equivalent of a loving tankie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3fP15F6szA
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Jul 4, 2016 05:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:They're not calling for ending settlements, because in their policy of dismissing "collaborationists" they reject the only possible path for ending settlements. They dismiss "collaborationists" because they believe that those policies aren't actually a path to ending settlements. Considering the last two and a half decades, I don't think that's a viewpoint that's quite so easy to dismiss. Cugel the Clever posted:Anyone have good details on just how much Elie Wiesel came to champion the very genocidal ethnic supremacy he once wrote elegantly against? There's outrage among certain groups on Twitter over Max Blumenthal's unwillingness to whitewash what the man became. If half of what I've read is accurate, whatever great man Wiesel once was died years ago—ignoring the man he became does injury to the message he once championed. People like to assume that ex-victims won't victimize others, but unresolved mental issues caused by the victimization often make them more likely to victimize others. Without proper therapy, abused children often grow up to be abusers themselves. In any case, Palestinians aren't the only group whose suffering Wiesel ignored, and that selectiveness was not a recent development. For example, Wiesel believed early on that Jews were the only victims of the Holocaust, and that it was a unique experience and hatred which was directed against them alone...and had repeatedly been accused of using his position with groups like the Holocaust Memorial Council to block recognition of non-Jewish Holocaust victims and omit them from official narratives. To this day, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum that he was responsible for founding defines the Holocaust as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators" and mentions in passing that "during the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups", explicitly excluding the genocide of the Roma and other groups from the Holocaust itself. He's not well-liked by Romani scholars and writers, who believe he's consistently minimized and excluded Roma suffering from the Holocaust.
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Jul 4, 2016 16:44
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Scotland Yard summons Livni for Cast Lead war crimes questioningquote:The former foreign minister and current MK received the summons on Thursday during a trip to Britain, but the incident was kept quiet until Sunday. 
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Jul 4, 2016 18:07
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quote:"We would have expected different behavior from a close ally such as the UK" Considering the UK is burning bridges left and right, this is just par for the course.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:27
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Considering the UK is burning bridges left and right, this is just par for the course. I can't say that I am seeing much merit to this argument. The UK government maneuvers against one of its own police forces in order to avoid embarrassment for a key ally's opposition politician, and this is the thanks they get. If anything, this is another display of ingratitude by the Israeli foreign service, honed by years of Lieberman's blustering leadership, probably further encouraged by his rise to the Defense ministry.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:36
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The Insect Court posted:You are conveying the opinion that it is not brave to stand up to antisemites in 2016. That's the barely implicit message in your rhetorical question, I just want to make it explicit. Tell me what grave perils await the man who stands against anti-semitism on the internet. 
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Jul 4, 2016 18:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I can't say that I am seeing much merit to this argument. The UK government maneuvers against one of its own police forces in order to avoid embarrassment for a key ally's opposition politician, and this is the thanks they get. That was more of a jab at Brexit than an actual argument.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:55
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NLJP posted:I feel our friend Kim Jong Il represents this exactly so I brought this post back. His post is completely false given that Israel does have cooperation with the PA. In fact, a lot of posters in this very thread condemn the PA for that cooperation. Schizotek posted:Says man who claims holding a population of 6 million to the same degree of responsibility as a unified military command is being consistent. So I condemn being falsely accused of ideas that I don't hold, you don't even address that point, and then attribute another idea to me that I don't hold in that I don't support settlement expansion. NLJP posted:We certainly don't ignore that even if all the Palestinians hold said view, it is a clancy-esque fantasy impossibility. Except that there's a track record of them trying to do this, AND anti-Zionist posters here gleefully reference Kachist garbage that has no chance of coming to fruition solely to build up another strawman to beat down. emanresu tnuocca posted:The onus upon reducing the level of violence lies only with the sovereign. Hate is the product of the foreign tyranny imposed upon palestinians and the byproduct of their just resistance campaign among the indoctrinated Israeli population. Even if this were true (it's not given that it predates 1948), there's pretty strong evidence that the state of Israel is unacceptable to them in any form.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:12
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Main Paineframe posted:They dismiss "collaborationists" because they believe that those policies aren't actually a path to ending settlements. Considering the last two and a half decades, I don't think that's a viewpoint that's quite so easy to dismiss. That theory is easily proven false though. Israel came really, really close to withdrawing from settlements in 1996, 2000, and 2007. Rejecting the peace process after those near misses is like voting for Donald Trump because you think it's the only way to implement glorious communism. When in actuality it means a mountain of skulls and Shadow Run.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:19
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Any day now guys, poor underdog israel will be annihilated by the force of that juggernaut world power, the palestinian people. Today it's pipe bombs hucked over a wall with a good enough chance to not even go off, tomorrow it's the ICBMs. Also poor Kim Jong is losing their sight I fear, they keep missing some posts that you'd think are pretty unavoidable 
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Jul 5, 2016 00:28
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Kim Jong Il posted:That theory is easily proven false though. Israel came really, really close to withdrawing from settlements in 1996, 2000, and 2007. Rejecting the peace process after those near misses is like voting for Donald Trump because you think it's the only way to implement glorious communism. When in actuality it means a mountain of skulls and Shadow Run. Wrong on pretty much all counts. For one, the plan was for almost all the settlements to stay but for Israel to annex Palestinian land in a land swap. Secondly, none of these really came close to going ahead. Thirdly, the reason they didn't come close to going ahead is because the peace process is not a peace process towards Israel withdrawing it's settlements, it's a peace process towards Israel ending it's occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state and they didn't come anywhere close to accomplishing that goal. Dealing with the settlements is only one component of that and has always been the easiest part of the talks (excluding the settlements of Jerusalem) because the basis for how that is solved has been endorsed by the entire international community and accepted by both sides (Return of lands to prior borders, mutually agreed land swaps possible). All that's left to do is finagle over the details. The big stumbling blocks in no particular order are Jerusalem in general (including the settlements there), the al-Aqsa mosque/Temple Mount, the return of refugees, security and the fact that Israel doesn't seem to actually want to achieve the end goal of the peace process of an independent Palestinian state and seem intent on trying to get the Palestinians to agree to be some kind of pseudo-state that is satellited to Israel (For instance I recall that the 2000 peace talks had Israel arguing that the free and independent Palestinian state should have Israeli troops stationed on it, Israeli control of borders, Israeli vetos on Palestinian construction it didn't want like an airport, etc). The fact that Israel in no way seems to be pursuing the goal of the peace process is a fairly big stumbling block. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 00:34
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Bill Clinton, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, and Aaron Miller directly contradict you on the 2000 negotiations, and most of what you said isn't much of a stumbling block at all. You're making the crucial error of conflating Likud/Netanyahu with all of Israel though, which this piece makes clear is absolutely wrong. http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...rces-idf-214004 Hamas deliberately wants Likud/Netanyahu in power because they would have no base of support if Palestinians weren't constantly enraged with nationalism and xenophobia. Anti-Zionists like Omar Barghouti and Ali Abunimah have, through different processes, reached the same conclusions, which betrays how profoundly wrong they are.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:56
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Kim Jong Il posted:Bill Clinton, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, and Aaron Miller directly contradict you on the 2000 negotiations, and most of what you said isn't much of a stumbling block at all. You're making the crucial error of conflating Likud/Netanyahu with all of Israel though, which this piece makes clear is absolutely wrong. http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...rces-idf-214004 So what you are saying is if Israel stopped their genocidal policies then Hamas wouldn't have a support base in the occupied territories and everyone would be able to get along better? Say it aint so!
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Jul 5, 2016 01:25
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Kim Jong Il posted:
Is that not all violence in this conflict? ALso frankly on the subject of the Romani, they should be given a homeland in about 20 years after Jobbick lead Hungary is split in half.
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Jul 5, 2016 01:33
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Kim Jong Il posted:Bill Clinton, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, and Aaron Miller directly contradict you on the 2000 negotiations, and most of what you said isn't much of a stumbling block at all. You're making the crucial error of conflating Likud/Netanyahu with all of Israel though, which this piece makes clear is absolutely wrong. http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...rces-idf-214004 What do you think "Bill Clinton, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, and Aaron Miller directly contradict" me about seeing as I made a variety of claims and they certainly aren't going to contradict me about the fundamental basis of the talks which you don't seem to understand at all. That's even putting aside the points of view and political needs of the people involved (To give you one example aside from the general point of view to try and portray every summit in the peace process as a success to try and drive momentum towards further summits and edge closer on concessions, Clinton also staked a lot of personal prestige on the Camp David Summit). I mean some of your views can be disabused by just literally wikiing the israeli-palestinian peace process and looking at the list of issues that are viewed as important. To give you an example from one of the books I've got on the process, just picking up up at random and flicking through a few pages, to quote Arafat on Wednesday the 19th of July during the Camp David peace negotiations: "I can't conclude an agreement without Jerusalem. I will not betray Jerusalem... the proposals you're submitting to me are ones Dahlan brought me from Barak. i won't betray either the Christians of the Palestinians.; I'm not to blame for the failure. I asked that this summit be better prepared for, and that we not repeat what happened with Assad in Geneva, but you didn't listen to me. I suggested that the international forces be deployed [in the Jordan Valley], and you came and asked me for 20 percent of border territory" - Shattered Dreams, The Failure of the Peace Process in the Middle East 1995 - 2002 p. 234 by Charles Enderlin, English edition. Hmmm, sure seems like Jerusalem might have been a sticking point and that actually you seem unaware of even the basic components of the peace process. Of all the points raised, including the settlements, the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount is probably the most problematic and the one that has caused the most division (Aside of course from Israel's fundamental rejection of the whole peace process). Israel continually pushes for some kind of authority or sovereignty there in peace talks and it's the one place where Palestinians have consistently had little to no wiggle room. They've made concessions on refugees and settlements, but with the Haram al-Sharif - Islam's third most holy site - they feel that giving up or reducing sovereignty is impossible and it;s not even something they could decide on by themselves as it effects and would betray a billion Muslims across the world. No peace talk has ever come close to forming an agreement on the issue and it is an issue without which no peace will be agreed. I'm ignoring your comments about Netanyahu, Hamas and Likud seeing as it has nothing to do with any point I raised and I can't be bothered to correct the off-topic ignorant poo poo you write a well as the on-topic ignorant poo poo. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 01:48
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The actual long term solution is a One State plan but Israel would rather give away half its land than do that.
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Jul 5, 2016 02:44
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computer parts posted:The actual long term solution is a One State plan but Israel would rather give away half its land than do that. israel is fully aware that one state is the only possible outcome, it's just that they want to get rid of all the pesky Palestinians in that future single state
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Jul 5, 2016 02:49
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icantfindaname posted:israel is fully aware that one state is the only possible outcome, it's just that they want to get rid of all the pesky Palestinians in that future single state They will be provided with affordable, up to date housing in New Mexico?
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Jul 5, 2016 03:01
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The Insect Court posted:You are conveying the opinion that it is not brave to stand up to antisemites in 2016. That's the barely implicit message in your rhetorical question, I just want to make it explicit. I don't have a milligram of antisemitism in me. So stop acting like you exposed me. I seriously don't understand what that last sentence was about. It's like you're overanticipating some point I'm about to make in a future post that I will write. Also man you've got some nerve to try twisting around what i'm talking about regarding the chauvenistic nationalism. You know goddamn well which nationals I'm talking about you chickenshit. Come back in a week after all the hard questions everyone asked for you to answer stop being worked into posts or something.
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Jul 5, 2016 05:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'm arguing every single point tirelessly and have never said that anyone who disagrees with me is inherently racist. I finally read through this whole loving thread, and to my surprise I found a person more abhorrent than JRod. Way to go poo poo head (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 5, 2016 05:24
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Why is it even in D&D we talk like a two state solution is in any way a viable option anymore? The idea that Israel will dismantle the settlements and forcibly relocate million of their own people to back to their official borders is loving laughable. Ditto the idea that they'd become citizens of Palestine. Israel wouldn't allow it. The settlers would burn the West Bank down before being ruled by muslims. And the Palestinians certainly don't want the miserable fuckers in their country. So what you'd have is a dozen noncontiguous chunks of scrub brush and some of the Negev with all of their individual borders controlled by Israel. It's literally just a solidification of the status quo. e: Nearly forgot to post music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDBkK_BthA Schizotek fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 05:25
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