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sassassin posted:If you don't understand football tactics, downloading a ridiculously over-complicated powergaming tactic with no resemblance to real life football is a poor starting point. It looks and feels kinda like how Arsenal line up. Our wingers are clearly more wide forwards than traditional wingers. I've had tons of success with a 3 man AML/C/R this version. Or am I missing something?
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Jul 4, 2016 16:24
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4-2-3-1 with 3 attacking midfielders is pretty much the 'standard' formation in real life. 
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Jul 4, 2016 16:33
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jyrka posted:4-2-3-1 with 3 attacking midfielders is pretty much the 'standard' formation in real life. "Formation" irl isn't formation in the game. Mechanically it's not the same thing. The formation you set in FM is specifically your team's Defensive Shape. A vanishingly small number of teams attempt to defend in a 4-2-3-1. An 4-2-3-1 attacking shape can be created with a wide range of formations with better defensive capability, via player roles and duties.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:10
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Most teams irl defend in a 4-4-1-1, 4-5-1 or 4-V-1 formation, all of which can create a "4-2-3-1" in attack.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:13
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A 4231 in the game works well if you don't worry about actual defending and just press really high up because your players are just better and faster than the competition but otherwise you either need more support on the wings or through the center when defendingFAT WORM OF ERROR posted:Are you all using different tactics when you're away? I wanted to go with a deeper 4312 or 442 and counter but I can't seem to make either work. I don't tend to use different tactics specifically for away games, but just for more difficult games or if I want to cede possession. Had a bit of luck with a 433 with a DM and 2 wingers, and also a 4132 where the 3 are all central playmakers.
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Jul 4, 2016 22:25
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You can get away with a 442 if you've got good players. Defend Deep, with Attacking mentality, look for overlaps and hope to hell your Full Backs can get back if you lose possession. My Wingers score 0.4 goals/game because Back Post defending is still terrible, and my main goalscorers get about 0.8 goals/game, more than that if they're excellent.
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Jul 5, 2016 00:35
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442 is the only formation that consistently scores at least a goal per game against my 4231 and it's brutally frustrating
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Jul 5, 2016 00:43
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4-2-3-1 works okay in the game because the match engine is a mess of compromises and confusion, and the game isn't especially hard to brute force with good players, and you can easily happen upon a set of instructions that exploits something or other in the code (which is what all these downloadable tactics with a hundred instructions are trying to accomplish). And it's not that far from a strong, sensible formation like 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 at the end of the day; it's just a few players 10 or 20 yards too far up the pitch when defending. If you're actually trying to understand what you're doing and why it's working (or not), using that formation is a bad starting point. It's not football as you see it irl. Even a high press involves tracking back.
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Jul 5, 2016 10:03
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sassassin posted:4-2-3-1 works okay in the game because the match engine is a mess of compromises and confusion, and the game isn't especially hard to brute force with good players, and you can easily happen upon a set of instructions that exploits something or other in the code (which is what all these downloadable tactics with a hundred instructions are trying to accomplish). And it's not that far from a strong, sensible formation like 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 at the end of the day; it's just a few players 10 or 20 yards too far up the pitch when defending. Is there a match engine equivalent of Inside Forward - Attack but from the ML/R positions? That's the main reason I like a 4231, because I can't get players to behave like that if they start further back.
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Jul 5, 2016 11:43
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I like how my wingers and full backs literally can't cross from the byline. Right footed players playing on the right side will run to the byline, do a 90 degree turn to face the center circle, try to pass it with their right foot, right into the defender tracking him who manages to boot it clear.
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Jul 5, 2016 11:59
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Ragingsheep posted:I like how my wingers and full backs literally can't cross from the byline. Right footed players playing on the right side will run to the byline, do a 90 degree turn to face the center circle, try to pass it with their right foot, right into the defender tracking him who manages to boot it clear. I have no idea what's going on with your team because like 60% of my goals are from crosses from the byline
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Jul 5, 2016 12:54
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Bogan Krkic posted:Is there a match engine equivalent of Inside Forward - Attack but from the ML/R positions? That's the main reason I like a 4231, because I can't get players to behave like that if they start further back. It depends what you envisage IF-A as being, and how the rest of your team is shaped. Personally I've had Winger-Support and Winger-Attack provide great goalscoring returns as movement narrows in the final third regardless of instruction. With a lone striker in the ST or AM position, they can score a lot of goals approaching from wide areas. Conventional thinking was that Wide Midfielder - Attack (with instructions to come inside with the ball) was the deeper equivalent of IF-A, but I found they narrowed too early in play to be useful. Generally though, IF-A is a main striker role, staying high and drifting out into channels when your team doesn't have the ball. You can either create a defensive version of it that doesn't offer the same outlet, or use a better overall system to utilise it effectively.
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Jul 5, 2016 13:02
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I thought 4-4-2 was basically dead irl
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Jul 5, 2016 18:24
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Waroduce posted:I thought 4-4-2 was basically dead irl Iceland play it. As did Leicester at times last season. The 4-4-2 shape is more flexible than it's given credit for. Defending in two banks of 4 is cool and good and common still, and you can create a range of attacking shapes from that starting point. Two strikers is coming back into fashion.
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Jul 5, 2016 23:34
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Waroduce posted:I thought 4-4-2 was basically dead irl It's all them forren coaches coming over here, stealing our formations.
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Jul 6, 2016 00:06
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sassassin posted:It depends what you envisage IF-A as being, and how the rest of your team is shaped. Personally I've had Winger-Support and Winger-Attack provide great goalscoring returns as movement narrows in the final third regardless of instruction. With a lone striker in the ST or AM position, they can score a lot of goals approaching from wide areas. Yeah cool, that's what I thought. I use them as wide strikers, and a CF-S to link play from midfield to the widemen. All 3 drop deep-ish, but stay high enough up the pitch to press really high and smash teams on the counter. Don't think it'd be any use dropping them deeper in that case.
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Jul 6, 2016 04:14
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Bogan Krkic posted:Yeah cool, that's what I thought. I use them as wide strikers, and a CF-S to link play from midfield to the widemen. All 3 drop deep-ish, but stay high enough up the pitch to press really high and smash teams on the counter. Don't think it'd be any use dropping them deeper in that case. 4 strikers is a lot.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:11
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sassassin posted:4 strikers is a lot. That's 3, but it seems to work. I score heaps and concede heaps.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:23
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Bogan Krkic posted:That's 3, but it seems to work. I score heaps and concede heaps. High scoring games are bad. Conceding more than a goal a game is criminal mismanagement. AMs are strikers. It's a 10 position.
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Jul 6, 2016 09:52
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sassassin posted:High scoring games are bad. Conceding more than a goal a game is criminal mismanagement. lol high scoring games are great mate. AMs drop real deep and if that's 4 strikers then call me Bielsa
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Jul 6, 2016 10:04
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You're destroying your goalkeeper's morale because he never gets his clean sheet bonus.
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Jul 6, 2016 11:10
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He kept 12 clean sheets last season, even though he was out injured for about a month. No issues there.
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Jul 6, 2016 15:16
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It's all about min maxing the transfer market and youth markets so you can have such a good back 4 that you just don't concede many anyway. If your main striker has more than 90 minutes per goal that's the criminal mismanagement. edit: Okay, moving them back to ML/R isn't taking too much out of our attack and seems to offer a bit more defensively. The jury is out but I'll give it a few months I guess, see how they adapt. Masonity fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 19:47
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My goalkeeper went to clear a backpass and hoofed into an oppositions striker like 18 yrds out and it bounced off him and went into the goal so gently caress me i guess
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Jul 7, 2016 03:52
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same
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Jul 7, 2016 04:28
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 Works for me. Conceded 41 this season after 65 and 76 my first two premier league seasons. It might work better without the team instructions but I like to pretend my manager is doing something other than standing there watching a runabout
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Jul 7, 2016 05:14
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Marquis de Pyro posted:
That's a very aggressive midfield.
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Jul 7, 2016 10:02
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sassassin posted:That's a very aggressive midfield. You must be the most boring manager ffs
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Jul 7, 2016 13:09
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sassassin posted:That's a very aggressive midfield. Yeah no wonder his Kok looks so worn out. Im so sorry.
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Jul 7, 2016 13:47
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Bogan Krkic posted:You must be the most boring manager ffs But I get results. 1-0, 0-0, 1-1, 0-1...
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Jul 7, 2016 14:57
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tbh, mine works pretty well, too.
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Jul 7, 2016 19:59
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How many real life teams play without any sort of holding midfielder?
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Jul 7, 2016 20:51
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 Second best defense in the league this year (32 conceeded, 97 scored) Best in the league last year (16 conceeded, 108 scored) It looks far too attacking but it works. Dropping the wingers (the 4-4-1-1 tactic you can see I've added) offers another interesting option / dynamic but I just feel the 4-2-3-1 is stronger with my current squad. I'd love to see how it would have done before I had that level of talent though. Until you have god tier players it does concede too many. My first season I came second on goal difference with 52 conceded. 40, 45 and 39 conceded followed that (all league winning tallies but far from impressive) before I finally had the quality to actually defend occasionally.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:00
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Yeah no wonder his Kok looks so worn out.  well with sideburns like that...
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Jul 8, 2016 04:16
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Marquis de Pyro posted:
Good god man, trim those pubes.
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Jul 8, 2016 04:19
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sassassin posted:How many real life teams play without any sort of holding midfielder? How many real life teams score 90% of their goals from full backs whipping the ball in?
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Jul 8, 2016 05:44
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Masonity posted:
AP-S, with it's low closing down and forward runs instructions, is a decent option for a holding midfield role. B2B and BWM are among the worst. Once you have overwhelming quality throwing loads of players up tends to work quite well as the ai cowers in its own box against superior reputations. My careers never last long enough to do that (plus I'm overly sentimental towards my dogshit first window signings).
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Jul 8, 2016 09:59
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sassassin posted:AP-S, with it's low closing down and forward runs instructions, is a decent option for a holding midfield role. B2B and BWM are among the worst. Unfortunately I still have a hard on for Petit - Vieira. It's the best midfield I've ever watched and I need to replicate it. Petit was more a DLP than an AP but I haven't found the right player for that. Pogba is a perfect Vieira replacement and I have a kid who will be even better. I guess they had the Romford Pele himself Ray Parlour on the wing who did a lot of covering for Paddy. That and the best back 4 and keeper unit in history.
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Jul 8, 2016 17:13
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I actually used to have a more "standard" midfield, but I just said 'screw it' and went for a much more attacking lineup (with defensive mentality of course!) and somehow we started conceding far less goals. I'm guessing it was more to do with an improvement in player quality and I may have even better success with some different roles, but the team was playing well and I didn't want to screw with it during the season. I'll probably try something a little different for next season. I definitely did still have issues holding much possession versus the top teams.
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Jul 8, 2016 17:25
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I should apparently train Jose Reyes as a sweeper keeper....are sweeper keepers poo poo in FM? Also, I think im going to get promoted this year (year 2), who is a good goalkeeper for like 11 Million i can get who won't get poo poo on in the prem?
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Jul 9, 2016 03:17
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