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Calaveron posted:There was no joy to be found anywhere. This is simply not true.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:06
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It doesn't matter, there's a certain kind of person that just wants an easy smiling power fantasy full of never-ending quips and "badass" moments and Batman v Superman definitely isn't that. Let taste reign. At least he's not saying that Superman didn't save anyone.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:08
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4/8 Batman movies have shown his parents dying. 3/5 Spider-Man movies have shown Uncle Ben dying. Let's get those numbers up.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:09
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:And then was killed by the robber that Spider-Man failed to stop? Uh...I think that probably would have led to the same outcome. Is the robber = the tornado in MoS? Imagine if there had been a scene where Supes tracked it down somewhere in Kentucky about to blow it away with its super breath....until Martha says its not worth it... EDIT: "Its just a bunch of hot air, Clark!"
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Jul 5, 2016 21:10
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LesterGroans posted:4/8 Batman movies have shown his parents dying.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:17
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Calaveron posted:Imagine if uncle Ben had told Peter that he didn't owe the world anything
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Jul 5, 2016 21:22
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Kurzon posted:I seriously wish the Batman movies would stop focusing on his parents' deaths. Yeah, I'm sure that kind of trauma would permanently shape anybody's life, but there has to be more to it. Lots of kids have gone through that experience - what drove Bruce to become Batman? If he wants to fight crime, why not just be a cop? Or a criminologist? Or a therapist for troubled youth? The reason that everyone thinks Batman is insane is that no writer has bothered to develop a deeper rationale for Bruce's decision to be vigilante. Hello Batman Begins would like to have a word with you perhaps you have heard of it Also why would Bruce want to be a cop? Not only is he obscenely wealthy, the cops and justice system of Gotham is hilariously corrupt and broken. Hell, even in BvS with two otherwise normal and good cops, they're so apathetic to crime and distress that they blow off their dispatcher to watch a football game that their team has no conceivable way of winning. And that's the NORMAL police, not the ones who are literally owned by the mob
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Jul 5, 2016 21:24
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Calaveron posted:Imagine if uncle Ben had told Peter that he didn't owe the world anything Uncle Ben would be right, and then if Peter Parker sacrificed his personal prospects to be a hero it would make his actions all the more heroic than an obligation to the dead.
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Jul 5, 2016 21:37
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BiggerBoat posted:I think the rise in popularity of comic book movies can be largely explained just by realizing how difficult it was to pull off the effects before and how much easier it is now. It wasn't that anyone didn't want to see Spiderman, Hulk or X-Men in a movie in 1993, but for a long time the tech wasn't there to pull it off, especially for poo poo like Spider-Man or Hulk. While I agree with you for the most part, a big aspect of Donner Superman's marketing was the tagline "you will believe a man can fly." I think a lot of that generation knew Superman from the George Reeves stuff when...yeah you couldn't believe a man could fly. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:(also something nobody ever mentions is that Pa Kent might not actually know if Clark can withstand the tornado. Unless you think Pa Kent took Clark into a field and ran him over with a tractor and shot him a couple of times to test his invulnerability - which is a funny image) That's...a pretty good point I never considered, actually. Just goes to show that sometimes you really have to work not to impose your background knowledge of a character onto the story the movie tries to tell, especially in year one stories like Man of Steel. MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jul 5, 2016 |
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Jul 5, 2016 21:44
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Shageletic posted:Is the robber = the tornado in MoS? They don't really map to each other at all. The tornado is a force of nature. It doesn't have an agenda. It is simply a force that cannot be stopped. Pa Kent holds up his hand because he realizes that his 17-year-old son is not emotionally ready to be thrust onto the world stage and become The Superman. He is willing to die to give Clark more time to "find himself". (also something nobody ever mentions is that Pa Kent might not actually know if Clark can withstand the tornado. Unless you think Pa Kent took Clark into a field and ran him over with a tractor and shot him a couple of times to test his invulnerability - which is a funny image) Spider-Man's robber has an agenda. He's demonstrably wronged someone and Parker can easily intervene with no consequences to himself or others - in fact it is his civic responsibility and the promoter would appreciate him doing it. Instead, he does nothing out of extremely petty revenge. This blows back into the death of his Uncle Ben.
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Jul 5, 2016 22:14
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Calaveron posted:The movie was a collection of scenes one after the other with very little coherence full of lofty, overbearing dialogue whose only purpose was to be part of the trailer and subplots that had dick all to do with the rest of the movie (the bullet oh my god). I recently made a trip to Kitchener-Waterloo in Ontario, and here's my review of that city: What? Where am I?! There are... buildings? Oh my god! Why?! The buildings only exist so there can be a maps made of them. Travel brochures. What is this park, what is this grass (trees?!)? Where is joy? The glass & ceramics museum is pretty ok. Jesus loving Christ. Snowglobe: "Kitchener had a population of 219,153 in the 2011 Census. The metropolitan area, which includes the neighbouring cities of Waterloo and Cambridge, has 507,096 people, making it the tenth largest Census Metropolitan Area (CMA) in Canada and the fourth largest CMA in Ontario."
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Jul 6, 2016 00:40
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lmao Snowglobe's been getting SMG riled up for days now
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Jul 6, 2016 00:45
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Kurzon posted:I seriously wish the Batman movies would stop focusing on his parents' deaths. Yeah, I'm sure that kind of trauma would permanently shape anybody's life, but there has to be more to it. Lots of kids have gone through that experience - what drove Bruce to become Batman? If he wants to fight crime, why not just be a cop? Or a criminologist? Or a therapist for troubled youth? The reason that everyone thinks Batman is insane is that no writer has bothered to develop a deeper rationale for Bruce's decision to be vigilante. What sets Bruce apart is that he's a rich dude who never got counseling, as opposed to a poor dude who never got counseling. Anyway, BvS has the parents death as a minor aspect to Bruce's overall motivations. They're the reason why he believes in a lack of justice (until the end of the movie), but what really drives him is the fear and distrust of a being like Superman.
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Jul 6, 2016 01:04
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bring back old gbs posted:lmao Snowglobe's been getting SMG riled up for days now I would not mind the posts if there were some insight accompanying the numbers. Everyone knows that Warner Bros makes money, but the conclusion drawn is that "people like tones?" There's an interesting conversation to be had about the 'evolution' of narrative structures in superhero films after 2000, beginning with the abortive Daredevil Cinematic Universe in 2005. But that's not happening because people are not approaching these collections of films as narratives with structures. The 'MCU' is not a static thing but an extremely complex, constantly shifting mass of overlapping trilogies. I've written in the past about its fundamental modularity, but that modularity has been gradually abandoned. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 01:51
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: bring back Superman to his socialist roots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lKwXwU5iWs Use the anger of the masses for their capitalist masters. Make Superman revolutionary again.
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Jul 6, 2016 01:55
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Kurzon posted:what drove Bruce to become Batman?...The reason that everyone thinks Batman is insane is that no writer has bothered to develop a deeper rationale for Bruce's decision to be vigilante. Edit: beaten but yeah First and foremost, his inherited wealth. He's heir to the throne that built Gotham City. I think that's strongly illustrated in most depictions of Batman and explains why he didn't just become a cop or a gumshoe private detective. The reason he's insane is because he travelled down that rabbit hole and, largely because he was rich, never had to do anything else so it became an obsession. Also what Burkion said but I think the purest and most true answer is that Bruce Wayne was born insanely wealthy and only got more wealthy after the death of his parents, which probably adds to the guilt/remorse aspect of the character. Batman's not all that complicated to figure out.
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Jul 6, 2016 02:11
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Kurzon posted:I seriously wish the Batman movies would stop focusing on his parents' deaths. Yeah, I'm sure that kind of trauma would permanently shape anybody's life, but there has to be more to it. Lots of kids have gone through that experience - what drove Bruce to become Batman? If he wants to fight crime, why not just be a cop? Or a criminologist? Or a therapist for troubled youth? The reason that everyone thinks Batman is insane is that no writer has bothered to develop a deeper rationale for Bruce's decision to be vigilante. A sudden, violent loss is how a lot of people see superheroes being created. They aren't born anymore. The Punishe ris another good example of a character defined by their origin story. Kurzon posted:I like Martha's line. It shows that Superman saves people simply because he likes to, not because he has a sense of guilt or an obligation to his ghost dad. Exactly. Between Uncle Ben and Ma Kent, I'll take Ma Kent. Of course, it's very different situations. Uncle Ben's line was needed to make Peter pull his head out of his rear end. Ma Kent's line shows, as you said, that Clark is already firmly looking at the world around him and appreciating how he can help the people in it. Honestly, I don't think a superhero should have more obligations than anyone else. No one would fault you or I if we stood by as someone else was mugged or if we didn't charge the guys holding up the store we happened to walk into. Society would not impose a demand upon us to be heroes. So why should Peter Parker or Clark Kent have this obligation? They would in much less danger than we would be but that shouldn't be the sole determining factor in my opinion.
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Jul 6, 2016 02:19
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Calaveron posted:Also why in God's name is the concept of piss or pissing so linked to Holly Hunter's character This is part of a water / fire motif that runs through the film. Basically water relates to Earth and humanity, while fire has to do with Superman and otherworldly power. I think this is carried over from Man of Steel, with Jor-El promising that humanity will join Superman in the sun, while Martha helps him be more human by telling him to focus on her voice as an island in the ocean to focus his powers. At the beginning of BvS, we see the Metropolis fight happening from MoS, but with a much warmer color palette (the fight in the first movie was at dusk, but the second time they show it appears to be in the mid-afternoon, making everything appear hotter.) Heat vision and firey debris falling from the sky are focused on as well. From there, the movie shows the aftermath, with the serene Indian Ocean reclaiming the alien ship - the Kryptonite is found underwater as well, which becomes the humans' weapon against the aliens. We first see Lois and Superman in the desert, where he specifically (and selfishly) uses his power to save her life. The mercenaries set fire to the village to frame him for more destruction. When we see them interacting as a "normal" human couple, it's in a bathtub. Clark is shown crossing to gotham on a Ferry to do his job as a reporter rather than just appearing there or flying as Superman. Batman lives on a lake and has his cave under it. When he fights Superman, he has the advantage in the rain, but Superman is stronger when there's fire nearby and when they go back indoors. Most of Lois' investigations take place near water - specifically her scenes in the rain and near a river with Lennox. Ghost Dad tells a story of his family of normal people diverting a flood to save their farm. The montage of Superman saving people while talking heads debate his purpose has images of him interacting with fire (the burning apartment, the exploding rocket), or water (pulling the ship, watching the family during the flood). Doomsday is strengthened by the nuke, but killed by the spear that was thrown in the water. Superman is healed by the power of the sun. There's a lot more in there, but the point with the jar of piss seems to be that while Lex is on the side of humanity (water), it's not something anyone else wants anything to do with (he is piss, you see).
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Jul 6, 2016 02:36
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I like how you can tell if someone came to BvS clean or after wallowing in Internet by the memes in their summaries.
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Jul 6, 2016 02:45
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I went into BvS knowing two things outside of what was shown in trailers - the Rotten Tomatoes score on release day and the fact that Batman (maybe?) kills people. That might have made me more charitable going in than I otherwise would have been, but I was kind of amazed by how divisive it turned out to be. I was almost never bored and thought the movie got way more things right than it got wrong. I still wish they released the director's cut simultaneously on digital and BluRay.
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Jul 6, 2016 03:34
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I've always been amazed and intrigued by the complaints about Batman killing dudes because starting with Keaton's Batman he's been killing people left and right. Hell, cinema Batfleck wasn't even the first time Batman incinerated a dude. Batman Returns' Batmobile hosed up a dude in Returns. I just think it's really interesting how BTAS shaped the current crop of adults, as well as camp nostalgia from the 60's Batman - alongside the jocular inanity of the super successful MCU. I don't mean the MCU's bad or anything, but it definitely has a lighter, more transitory tone. Batfleck is an interesting version of the Batman, and I'm glad they went his way. And hot drat, the conflicts Superman has with himself regarding how to actually be an effective hero are fuckin' wonderful. I loved Costner's mountain scene. I'm excited to watch the Ultimate cut when I get around to it.
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Jul 6, 2016 04:22
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Nolans Batman having a code is still very fresh in the general public's minds. It really doesn't go much further than that.
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Jul 6, 2016 04:34
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Bale Batman still managed to kill some dudes even with his "code".
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Jul 6, 2016 04:51
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The Dave posted:Nolans Batman having a code is still very fresh in the general public's minds. It really doesn't go much further than that. That "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" code is very reminiscent of  .Like, it's so dumb. It's hardly even a code. "Hey buddy, although it's well within my means and abilities to save you, I'm choosing not to. This allows me to maintain my moral superiority since I'm not actively killing you, I'm merely passively watching you die...from up close. Do you see the difference?" Like, at least bvs Batman put his big baddie behind bars. 
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Jul 6, 2016 05:09
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The Dave posted:Nolans Batman having a code is still very fresh in the general public's minds. It really doesn't go much further than that. Every single thing done by Snyder's Batman was done first in the Nolan films, with the exception of the branding. It's the same code.
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Jul 6, 2016 05:53
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Drifter posted:That "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" code is very reminiscent of I remember reading that originally they were going to film that scene so that Batman jumps out suddenly in more of a "oh poo poo this thing is finally gonna go off the rails" way with no extra dialogue after he says "who said anything about stopping it?" But that WB like required that he have some kind of one liner/final words to say to his enemy, so that was their half assed in between way of having him be smug about the guy dying without him killing him directly. Was this true though or just rumor mill stuff? With the direction the two sequels went in it retroactively ended up being a totally fitting way for that take on Batman to act but it really did jump out a bit in Begins. I think it was the first time anyone in mainstream audiences gave a poo poo about Batman killing anyone. Even when Batman Returns came out the general consensus wasn't "this is too weird and violent," just "this is too weird and violent for small kids."
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Jul 6, 2016 06:07
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Rubber bullets. Honest.
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Jul 6, 2016 06:16
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I was watching Batman Returns the other day and totally didn't remember all the sexual innuendo for some reason. Penguin was a horndog. When he met up with Catwoman one time and was all "Now this is a pussy I like to see" or whatever I was all whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-? It was hilarious. And poor Batman being in love-ish with Selina. How bittersweet that murder scene/ending was. 
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Jul 6, 2016 06:18
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BiggerBoat posted:Edit: beaten but yeah
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Jul 6, 2016 06:27
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byycwl8qgc
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Jul 6, 2016 06:39
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BiggerBoat posted:I think the rise in popularity of comic book movies can be largely explained just by realizing how difficult it was to pull off the effects before and how much easier it is now. It wasn't that anyone didn't want to see Spiderman, Hulk or X-Men in a movie in 1993, but for a long time the tech wasn't there to pull it off, especially for poo poo like Spider-Man or Hulk. Pffft, you don't need CGI to make a Spider-Man movie, you just need an actor who's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bddH-GCYWMw&t=1637s I think the special effects techniques were good enough in the 70s to pull off a good enough superhero movie even if they weren't 100% convincing, especially if you look at what they achieved in Star Wars. Hell, even the effects in Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory or Monty Python and the Holy Grail would have been good enough for a fun, campy superhero film if it didn't take itself too seriously. There was also a bunch of campy-but-not-comedic live action superhero TV shows at the time like Wonder Woman, The Amazing Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk so they knew there was an audience for this stuff, I guess that the superhero genre just had a lovely reputation in Hollywood as "dumb comicbook junk" and no one was prepared to put the effort and the money into it until Donner's Superman, and even then the genre really struggled to take off until the 00s even though there were smash hits like Batman 1989 and TMNT along the way. I guess that flops like Superman IV and Supergirl also made Hollywood leery of the genre. BiggerBoat posted:Batman's a little easier because if you get the costume and the cape right, it won't look too silly and he doesn't have to fly or climb walls. Dry ice, practical FX and lighting can carry the day. Eh, if they could pull off The Rocketeer in the early 90s I think they could have pulled off Iron Man as well. Like you say, as long as they got the characterization right the audience wouldn't have really cared if the effects were a bit lovely.
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Jul 6, 2016 06:44
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Shageletic posted:Is the robber = the tornado in MoS? MoS Superman: if you do use your super powers to save people then bad poo poo will still inevitably happen and you'll have that on your conscience Conclusion: Having super powers loving sucks MCU life lesson: WHOOOO I CAN FLY PEW PEW PEW Conclusion: Having super power is loving awesome!!!
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Jul 6, 2016 07:02
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Oh, I see. You're a loon. Hulk was too smart for audiences, but not for you. X3 is similar to Iron Man because they both had a post credits reveal? Come on, man. Weird poo poo about "my mom", what kind of nonsense is this? This whole post seems mean-spirited. Guy A. Person posted:Lol it's laughable Marvel sucking revisionist history. All of those successful super hero movies don't count because they weren't part of the MCU and Iron Man was despite being less successful. That's cool, you can mention how your experience differs from mine. When I was growing up, nobody talked about Spider-man except nerds. Everybody talked about Iron Man. Definitely nobody mentioned Blade. I never asked my mom what her opinion was on the matter. Though I would imagine she probably doesn't see superhero movies as their own genre, just as another flavor of action film. SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 07:59
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Spider-Man's life lesson: if you don't use your super powers to save people then bad poo poo will inevitably happen and you'll have that on your conscience I know this forum loves to rag on the MCU all the time but that is a gross overreaction.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:02
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I don't think that's an accurate description of the messages of MoS or Spider-Man...tbh
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Jul 6, 2016 08:05
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The idea that an attractive person gets a cool superpower, but then does nothing but complain about how it makes them a freak, is old and boring. The vast majority of the time, getting a superpower would be really cool.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:53
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Oh, I see. You're a loon. Hulk was too smart for audiences, but not for you. X3 is similar to Iron Man because they both had a post credits reveal? Come on, man. Weird poo poo about "my mom", what kind of nonsense is this? This whole post seems mean-spirited. You're being thrown off because your childhood isn't actually important. The corporations don't care about you, and your fave characters are crude advertisements. Hat Thoughts posted:I don't think that's an accurate description of the messages of MoS or Spider-Man...tbh Exactly; Tony Stark perpetually looks like he's about to burst into tears. None of the Marvel characters are having fun. They're all horribly depressed, and it seems like ''fun" because you don't care.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:53
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CelticPredator posted:I know this forum loves to rag on the MCU all the time but that is a gross overreaction. I was just joking, most of the MCU guys end up having a miserable time as well. Banner couldn't live with himself but discovered that he couldn't kill himself either (and then realised he couldn't live with anyone else either), Cap realises he can never stop fighting wars and lead a normal life, Tony's life always goes to poo poo, etc etc.. Hat Thoughts posted:I don't think that's an accurate description of the messages of MoS or Spider-Man...tbh The famous Spider-Man quote "With great powers comes great responsibility" works great when it's just used as a quick excuse for exciting Spidey adventures and Batman's grim origin works equally well but if the writers try to push those concepts slightly then they don't really hold up under scrutiny. They either need to quickly run through the origin and have the character go "Welp I'm a superhero now, on with business!" or they need to really commit to exploring their motivations properly. Batman's origin was pretty much thrown into the original comics as an afterthought and the character has been saddled with it ever since. The poor guy hasn't been able to move past his parents' death for over 70 years now.
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Jul 6, 2016 08:53
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I still can't get over Uncle Ben in ASM getting himself aggressively killed by the friendliest shoplifter in history. A random guy falls over in front of him and drops his gun (which he didn't even pull out in the shop - he just happens to own a gun), and Ol' Ben's first instinct is to jump on the mother fucker like it's Purge Night.
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Jul 6, 2016 09:27
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly; Tony Stark perpetually looks like he's about to burst into tears. None of the Marvel characters are having fun. They're all horribly depressed, and it seems like ''fun" because you don't care. It's fun to us, because we are not the ones being judged for not saving enough people/destroying a city. Sure, flying around sounds like it would be pretty awesome, but then people start judging you because you're not doing something to benefit society with it every minute of every day. Just look at how many people judged MoS Superman's actions during his fight with Zod or in BvS. "He wasn't saving people during the fight!" "He looks grim instead of really happy that he's saving people in the middle of a big catastrophe!" That's why I like Ma Kent's line that Superman doesn't owe poo poo to the world. It makes his heroics more authentic, because he could always say "gently caress it, I just want to be a regular journalist and play Halo in my spare time". Despite all the poo poo people give him for not being up to their standard of perfection, he still goes out and tries to do good.
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Jul 6, 2016 09:45
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