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Perestroika posted:Christ, Throgrim's armour quest is such a goddamn pain. We tried it in coop a few times with a normal army because the game gave us 60-40 odds, and it never worked out. Even when we took a completely dedicated one-track gimmick army full of slayers and trollhammers it was still incredibly close, despite a 90-10 win chance estimation. Hit insert with a cannon selected, manually shoot at the approaching giants, watch them stagger and take a beating and die in under 10 hits Checkerboard your line so the ranged can keep shooting, the trolls and giants are big targets and the trolls will route quickly with any focus fire at all.
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Jul 6, 2016 12:58
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My experience with Greenskins is getting a good 30-40 turns of rampaging around with mostly just Boyz even on VH, orc infantry is good. None of them are meant to be used as line infantry, though. Dwarves are made to stand in a line and cover their ranged units, orc infantry is meant to charge, flank, and win by breaking the enemy line. They're shock troops, basically, and you need to build your army around that.
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Jul 6, 2016 13:05
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Yeah, if I recall a comparison of the basic units someone posted ages ago, the point of Greenskins is that their infantry isn't really a tarpit to enable cavalry or ranged to come around and do the real killing, instead they get charge and damage bonuses and so on. They are pretty much just meant to get stuck in and overwhelm the enemy. They don't have an unit concept like ironbreakers or grave guard.
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Jul 6, 2016 13:12
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Hit insert with a cannon selected, manually shoot at the approaching giants, watch them stagger and take a beating and die in under 10 hits The giants weren't the problem, really, just the masses of trolls and the orc bosses. Basically the trolls kept handily beating up the frontline and usually didn't die before the next waves came in. In the end the melee infantry (Longbeards, at the time) were ground down in extended melees, while some of the later troll waves just slipped around the already engaged melee dorfs and beat up the ranged line. For what it's worth we were playing on Very Hard, so perhaps the Trolls not being quite as break-happy as usual made it more difficult?
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Jul 6, 2016 13:13
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unwantedplatypus posted:Gejnor, would you mind submitting a replay? Greenskin infantry is quite strong in my experience, and what you're saying doesn't correlate at all with my experience. Im sorry but i dont have that save anymore, it was an endturn thing and i restarted after taking that picture i added in my edit so its not available anymore. But essentially the dwarf army had more melee, i fought them uphill and i think my units got seperated as well, fun fun. Its still weird to me how tier 4 units can lose out so massively to tier 1 units but dwarf warriors are probably the best tier 1 melee units in the game. I still don't get the weird orc sentiments im seeing here though. So they're supposed to overwhelm the enemy.. and they do good stuck in? But they can't do either..? In my games they melt like icecream left out in the sun against, well, almost everything, though especially Dwarfs (orc v orc is okay but only because you're literally fighting the same units).Boyz that is mostly, but big unz are not super great either, good vs large but thats not a gold star in my book when they're supposed to replace your boyz. The Black Orcs are decent, but not godlike and frankly don't feel like a tier 4 unit. Compare them to Ironbreakers, Graveguard (who are tier 2 what the fuuuuck), or any of the Chosen or maybe just even Chaos Warriors and they just feel meh. Oh and don't get with the "oh just get a waagh army" yeah on Very Hard thats quite a challenge, especially as Azhag as every victory is made into a +- affair where you took so many losses (because once again your boyz melted away like the dew on a field of gold in summer, a summer where your memories are crisp and free and you are not a cynical monster who is now dead on the inside.. w..where was i? Oh, right orcs!) you're not actually advancing the waagh ticker at all. Also i get why they scaled back the units a Waagh army get (like lol, arachnarok spiders at turn 20 or whatever happened in that earlier build they streamed), but why can't it scale upwards somewhat like raise dead does under the right circumstances? Yeah thanks you gave me another army of orc boyz, a unit that will lose against most other races T1 units except zombies, but its turn 150 and the enemy dwarf player is sporting a full compliment of Ironbreakers. Or does it scale and ive been loving up somehow? Again, yeah they're supposed to be shocktroops as mentioned, but you can only really do that once, maybe twice during a fight, especially in orc boyz case since they can't very well pull back like cav does and cycle charge, what they will do is fight until they win,rout or die. If they win, and if it was a fight against the dwarfs you're awarded with a severely depleted unit of boyz who can't deal any reasonable damage in their next charge so whats the point? Gejnor fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 14:01
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Don't overwhelm the whole line, overwhelm one part of it. Usually I have trash hold up their important units and smash the gently caress out of whatever killy units they have with the bosses. Usually i'll take an army with artillery to get the enemies to come to me and smash up whatever their high value units are on the way. Once they get close, I charge in and aim my boss straight at theirs, backed up by whatever truly killy poo poo I have. Everything else is ignored until that leadership aura is dead. Once it is, move you warboss into the flank and roll up the line.
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Jul 6, 2016 14:25
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Instead of talking about tactics, mind if I submit a replay of my own once I find a good battle?
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Jul 6, 2016 14:49
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For real dude, you don't have nearly enough melee units. You brought 7 infantry/6 archers (Against dwarves?) to a fight with 13 dwarf infantry and a stronger ranged core. You have black orcs and doom divers unlocked apparently but no Big'uns and only one cav unit. Try starting a new campaign, and make an army that's just 80% boys. Like three archers and a doom diver max, some cav if you can get it, but otherwise just straight spam boys and upgrade to biguns later. Force yourself to play differently than you would with other races. Once you learn how to win battles with infantry mobs you'll be a lot more comfortable playing Orcs.
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Jul 6, 2016 14:50
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I need to learn how to better play on the battles period. I'm fine in the early game but when I get to the late game, probably from lack of appropriate units but that poo poo doesn't work anymore.
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Jul 6, 2016 14:56
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madmac posted:For real dude, you don't have nearly enough melee units. You brought 7 infantry/6 archers (Against dwarves?) to a fight with 13 dwarf infantry and a stronger ranged core. You have black orcs and doom divers unlocked apparently but no Big'uns and only one cav unit. The game lied to me look at that ratio!!  I will try this, though im afraid i'll probably play with the Da East is Green mod (i did not have it on in this playthrough) on which boosts Orc (raised melee defense to 30 from like 26) and Boar Boyz (armour at 70 instead of 50) a smidge and equalises Azhag with other Orc Lords. I honestly don't know if i can ever play with vanilla Azhag ever again, if given enough fucks i might be able to live with vanilla boyz of all flavours, but Azhag just being godawful at the start like that.. especially compared to a Grimgor game.. *shudders*
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Jul 6, 2016 15:00
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AI dwarfs are real easy to beat. They're slow and don't really do anything and have zero flanking power, just slam a line of boys in to their frontline and loop round their back with anything to get the flanking bonus Have like 2-4 units of trolls behind your frontline and tell them to attack armoured enemies once your frontline is fighting. They'll just walk through your troops. I use spiders to flank because they're so fast but you can't really leave them in melee. Even dwarf range units seem to beat them in a straight up fight. e: my main problem was all my armies were designed to murder dwarfs so when I started fighting savage orcs I was brutalised. Spiders got owned by boars, trolls freaked out instantly and flee and I had like 2-3 range units and got totally outshot. You really gotta build orc armies to deal with the faction. hemale in pain fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 15:15
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Gejnor posted:The game lied to me look at that ratio!! I will agree with you that Azhag start is total rear end. Just go Grimgor and unlock Azhag later, he requires a building you're going to want early enough anyway and it's way less of a pain in the rear end to unlock the Crown of Command when you've already gotten a solid start.
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Jul 6, 2016 15:22
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Cardiac posted:I dunno, I conquered the south on hard using a combination of Grimgor+ posse, as well as goblin spears, orc boys, gobbo archers, wolf riders and wolf rider archers. What's the reason to use goblin archers over orcs besides being a little cheaper?
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Jul 6, 2016 15:35
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goodness posted:What's the reason to use goblin archers over orcs besides being a little cheaper? more dakka, smaller targets
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Jul 6, 2016 15:36
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Captain Beans posted:Oh interesting, everywhere else I've seen people post performance losses with Nvidia. 1070. I could force the fps way below 60 in DX 11 with large army battles even on FXAA/1440p, but with DX12 I'm finding myself having to turn on v-sync to prevent tearing. Also for some reason my GPU temp consistently runs a few degrees higher. ditty bout my clitty fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 15:37
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Ilustforponydeath posted:1070. I could force the fps way below 60 in DX 11 with large army battles even on FXAA/1440p, but with DX12 I'm finding myself having to turn on v-sync to prevent tearing. Oh awesome, my 30th birthday is coming up and im building myself a monster PC as my gift to myself so i can ruin this game, RUIN IT. I decided to get a 1080 but felt a bit wary since it seemed the DX12 mode didn't work for nvidia cards in this game, glad to know the 10xx series has it!
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Jul 6, 2016 15:45
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Gejnor posted:Oh awesome, my 30th birthday is coming up and im building myself a monster PC as my gift to myself so i can ruin this game, RUIN IT. I just upgarded last week. My old 970 also had DX12 mode available, but the performance difference vs DX11 was hard to tell on that card, it may even have been worse. Also grats on the forthcoming monster!
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Jul 6, 2016 15:48
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Ilustforponydeath posted:I just upgarded last week. My old 970 also had DX12 mode available, but the performance difference vs DX11 was hard to tell on that card, it may even have been worse. Also grats on the forthcoming monster! Thank you! Im also currently on a 970, a decent card and i could play this game on ultra.. that is until the Blood and Gore DLC hit and my FPS tanked, though that may be because of my old CPU. Oh um, regarding orc chat, would this mod-unit be considered broken by you guys? Because i.. really like the idea of this one:  Basically a black orc unit but with a sword and shield instead. Tier 4 obviously. Also way more expensive than a normal black orc i think. Edit: Yeah, 1500 teef cost, 400 upkeep vs 1000 and 250 upkeep for a normal blackorc unit, also since normal blackorcs are more "dpsy" they are both relevant in what they are intended to do! That HP difference though is bothering me, and i may personally change it so they have equal HP. Double Edit: Okay yeah did that, also lowered the price/upkeep to 1200/300 to balance it slightly.  Gejnor fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 15:54
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That's fine, if you can only ever build one!
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Jul 6, 2016 16:13
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That looks like that Radious sort of trend of removing any faction unique elements from the game just so you can go about with a high tier shielded unit when the orcs seem to have that design philosophy built into them to some extent. It also pushes them into the realm of having a high defense unkillable line holder which orcs also aren't really all about.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:18
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dogstile posted:That's fine, if you can only ever build one! Its a bad name imo, because you can build more than one just like normal black orcs. Hell i may just rename the unit myself. Or i could make it capped to 1 per campaign!
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Jul 6, 2016 16:18
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Yeah that was my point, if I was going to use it, i'd only ever use one of them and ensure that da immortulz banner was stuck on them for the entire game.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:23
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dogstile posted:Yeah that was my point, if I was going to use it, i'd only ever use one of them and ensure that da immortulz banner was stuck on them for the entire game. Sure, and ive now changed it so the cap is 1. I want one tar pit unit please.. oh god please just one okay JUST ONE PLEASE! Now to make it so grimgor starts with this unit instead of a standard black orc unit! Edit: or not, since it seems to be a start position thing and i can't find it  , also im not sure it'd work since i need to reference a modded unit that does not exist into the base start pos thingy.I did learn a few cool things, according to the game Grimgor is 24 years old. Thorgrim is 31! Gejnor fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 16:26
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Gejnor posted:Sure, and ive now changed it so the cap is 1. I want one tar pit unit please.. oh god please just one okay JUST ONE PLEASE! The Where Is Krell? mod adds Krell as a 1 limit unit, and makes Kemmler start with him instead of the Dire Wolves. This won't change the lord select screen tooltip but it works in game so I know it's possible. I'd suggest opening up that mod and seeing how they did it
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Jul 6, 2016 17:04
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loving Sigvald again making me chase his stupid loving rear end all over the Empire with two stacks and then he blew up Grunburg because despite having Lv.1 Walls and a Tier III castle, was an open field battle. I could probably win the fight with a lot of effort but no, I absolutely do not want to try to win with the forces I had.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:06
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Onmi posted:loving Sigvald again making me chase his stupid loving rear end all over the Empire with two stacks and then he blew up Grunburg because despite having Lv.1 Walls and a Tier III castle, was an open field battle. Only the tier 2 garrison upgrade provides walls, tier 1 doesn't cut it.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:21
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So how do treaties and alliances work and what happens when you break them
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Jul 6, 2016 17:32
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Ilustforponydeath posted:I just upgarded last week. My old 970 also had DX12 mode available, but the performance difference vs DX11 was hard to tell on that card, it may even have been worse. Also grats on the forthcoming monster!  I have a 970 and I was hoping that dx12 would be the promised land of free fps gains.Oh well, at least now I don't have to bother updating off windows 7.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:35
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Onmi posted:loving Sigvald again making me chase his stupid loving rear end all over the Empire with two stacks and then he blew up Grunburg because despite having Lv.1 Walls and a Tier III castle, was an open field battle.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:37
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Kaza42 posted:The Where Is Krell? mod adds Krell as a 1 limit unit, and makes Kemmler start with him instead of the Dire Wolves. This won't change the lord select screen tooltip but it works in game so I know it's possible. I'd suggest opening up that mod and seeing how they did it I tried, using the better starting units for poor Azhag (yes there is one!) but the thing is its tied to start pos modding, and you cannot see what tables they use in those mods, it'll just give you a startpos.esf file which you cannot look through with PFM like you can with normal mods. Annoying!
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Jul 6, 2016 17:40
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:So how do treaties and alliances work and what happens when you break them Alliances mean you fight together and if you break them maybe people will get mad but also maybe they won't really care. It's very in depth.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:40
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Captain Beans posted:
CA on DX12 and graphics cards: http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War_WARHAMMER_DirectX_12_System_Requirements It looks like, for now, the big DX12 performance booster for TWWH is the async compute feature, which nvidia cards don't seem to offer until the 10 series. You should upgrade windows regardless, 10 is faster.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:45
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Perestroika posted:The giants weren't the problem, really, just the masses of trolls and the orc bosses. Basically the trolls kept handily beating up the frontline and usually didn't die before the next waves came in. In the end the melee infantry (Longbeards, at the time) were ground down in extended melees, while some of the later troll waves just slipped around the already engaged melee dorfs and beat up the ranged line. When I did that battle, I went in with the standard ironbreakers/thunderers core with cannons, brimstone gyros, and slayers to round out the army, all at rank 9 from all the Thanes with maxed exemplars. It went pretty smooth for me and the ironbreakers didn't really throw any of their satchel charges much since the trolls broke and died from the gun line very fast. I usually delay doing the quest battles until I have a stable footing and three to five provinces under my control though. 
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Jul 6, 2016 18:26
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Having now played all the factions, the one that I feel gets into the most hopeless stalemate slog is the Dwarves. To start I pushed into Gunbad as suggested and began bribing Kazak Kadrin for confederation. The southern border with the greenskins is quiet and I take out the Bloody Spears pretty early to keep them off of me. Pretty much immediately after confederating Kadrin I get declared on by the Vampire Counts and they start raiding me. I send Thorgrim and another stack up to deal with vampires when the border princes declare on the dwarf faction west of my start and my defensive ally, so I make a new army lead by Ungrim to go help with that. By this point I've razed a few VC cities, get a peace offer from him, and pull Thorgrim back when I get notification that a savage ork horde has spawned back in Gunbad. Queue me sending Thorgrim to chase him over creation. By the time I chase him back to the southern border of my territory and finally snatch him in an underway fight, Templehoof has started squatting in those VC cities I razed and decided it's their turn to declare war and start raiding Kadrin. Queue Thorgrim having to book it back north again. Meanwhile in the south circa turn 50 poo poo is going sour. Ungrim and another dwarf half stack is able to beat away the main Border Princes offensive push, but my ally has one city left and a limited army. So of course that means it's time for the greenskins to show up in force, and by force I mean SIX full stacks including a level 16 Azhag and a level 20 Grimgor. The jump in the amount of armies the AI fields going from normal-> hard is ridiculous.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:31
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Oh dear god, this game on legendary with a mod which makes the AI recruit way more melee infantry is crazy. Dwarf armies consisting of mostly fighty warrriors is sooo hard early game greenskins.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:32
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Perestroika posted:The giants weren't the problem, really, just the masses of trolls and the orc bosses. Basically the trolls kept handily beating up the frontline and usually didn't die before the next waves came in. In the end the melee infantry (Longbeards, at the time) were ground down in extended melees, while some of the later troll waves just slipped around the already engaged melee dorfs and beat up the ranged line. I did the same battle on very hard, maybe the latest patch made trolls better, but with a 50% melee/50% ranged/art army and a buff focused lord I could just send 2 or 3 quaellers to focus trolls and after 5 seconds they would route from damage sustained, without the ranged fire the melee would take a lot of damage and can't do much to trolls themselves. Mostly just sounds like a problem of a lack of focusing the ranged on the right targets or melee not checkerboard formation for better ranged coverage.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:33
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Yukitsu posted:That looks like that Radious sort of trend of removing any faction unique elements from the game just so you can go about with a high tier shielded unit when the orcs seem to have that design philosophy built into them to some extent. It also pushes them into the realm of having a high defense unkillable line holder which orcs also aren't really all about. It's weird that TW Orcs aren't nearly as versatile as tabletop Orcs. TT Black Orcs actually have a special rule where any unit can switch between chopp+shield, two choppas, and great weapons.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:41
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TT Black Orcs definitely relied on winning combats by doing the most damage, because they were too expensive to form a very large unit. The shield option was mainly useful against missiles and rarely used in melee.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:55
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Could someone post a video of thunderers being used in a checkerboard pattern? I can see it in my minds eye but in practice I'm having difficulty with it.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:56
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I don't know how people are having trouble with the greenskin campaign or their troops, they were by far the easiest campaign for me even with a lovely azhag start, might just suit my playstyle of constant conquest and war, maybe there are people who play them and turtle up and never get a waaargh together?
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Jul 6, 2016 19:02
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