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Kemper Boyd posted:The Russian 122mm howitzer still gets issued with HEAT shells for anti-tank use. Now that is forward thinking right there. The D-30 mod. 1963, not the M-30 mod. 1938, although I'm sure the latter can still be found kicking somewhere in the Middle East.
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Jul 6, 2016 15:16
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Koesj posted:Forczyk's Schwerpunkt delves into the details in a very matter of fact manner, and I thought it was a nice and quick read. I was about to mention that. It does a great job of showing how the fights played out, although it doesn't convey the enormity of operational losses. Still, things like calling for a fuel resupply before attacking make a lot of sense in that light. A real quick synopsis of the 1941 section would likely be that a competent armored attack takes supplies of ammunition and fuel, the tanks to actually be there rather than trickling in, artillery and infantry support, decent recon and/or orders issued in time to get to a decent position, and officers who have a vague idea what they're doing. The Soviets usually had maybe one of those factors if they were lucky. It's a long time before Lelyushenko and Katukov get a command with tanks that have fuel and ammo and enough time they can set up a coherent position, and they're still missing enough of the pieces that they're limited to a small scale counterattack before shifting back to a fighting retreat.
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Jul 6, 2016 15:17
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All of the ammo and fuel had to be somewhere right? Was it all left at the railhead? e: Were the Russians able to use their 76 and 85mm guns effectively in 1941? It has come up in more recent books on the subject of 88's that the British QF 3.7-inch and the American 90 mm Gun M1 were pretty good guns in their own right, but rarely used for AT duties. I was wondering if the Soviet guns were as good. The 85mm later ended up in T-34s right? Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 15:21
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Yooper posted:Any good books that cover the industrial side of things? Wages of destruction is a fantastic book about the German war economy.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:05
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I just watched a video where an expert claimed that Vikings were such fearsome warriors because they didn't fear death, on account of how they believed they were going to Valhalla. Is that generally true, or generally bullshit (obviously it's going to vary from Viking to Viking probably)? It definitely sounds not quite right, and my gut reaction is that a society that didn't mind dying would, logically, not last very long But on the other hand, there hasn't been a Viking raid in a while, so
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Jul 6, 2016 16:06
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Some guy on the internet speaks as the authority on all the religious view of all Vikings several centuries on? well, I'll be honest to myself it seems to me a wee bit bullshit.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:12
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Frosted Flake posted:All of the ammo and fuel had to be somewhere right? Was it all left at the railhead? All the fuel was in Moscow. The shells weren't anywhere. Production of new 76 mm AP shells began recently, but hadn't come even close to meeting the needs of the army. 85 mm AA guns were also used in the antitank role in 1941, even though they weren't designed for it. Production of an 85 mm field gun that could function as an antitank gun was supposed to begin, but never did since 76 mm was more than enough to deal with current threats. Production of the 57 mm ZiS-2 and ZiS-4 guns also stopped for that reason. The 85 mm guns that ended up in the T-34-85 had the same ballistics as the AA gun, but were a lot more compact. There was also a 76 mm AA gun, and the ZiS-5 was an attempt to get it into a tank. Eventually the conclusion was the same: the extra power isn't worth the added complexity, so the barrel was replaced with the one from the F-34, even though it was capable of using a much more powerful round. The S-54 gun with 76 mm AA gun ballistics was briefly tried on the T-34, but since the T-34-85 was around the corner, it never entered mass production.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:12
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SeanBeansShako posted:Some guy on the internet speaks as the authority on all the religious view of all Vikings several centuries on? well, I'll be honest to myself it seems to me a wee bit bullshit. Well the guy was a Viking expert, and he lived in a hut with painted shields and axes and stuff so maybe he knows his stuff? However the video was mostly about trains so they didn't spend a lot of time getting into Viking religious beliefs, it was more of a soundbite To me, not fearing death is something that only seems to happen in propaganda and fantasy novels, but now I'm curious if Vikings actually were like that at all. My guess is no but I've been surprised before
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Jul 6, 2016 16:17
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To me, it seems pretty false that somebody whether or warrior or soldier that doesn't fear death or think about it at all seems really really weird and out of place. What, you are surrounded by examples of mortality of others friend and foe and you don't consider it or be shaken by it for a single moment? I mean, logically if the Vikings didn't fear death the whole big rear end party afterlife wouldn't really exist now.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:25
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my house is filled with japanese wallscrolls and pictures of anime babes, does that make me an expert in japan and women?
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Jul 6, 2016 16:25
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Phobophilia posted:my house is filled with japanese wallscrolls and pictures of anime babes, does that make me an expert in japan and women? I'm wearing a shako right now, smoke tobacco and drink gin every day.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:28
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Phobophilia posted:my house is filled with japanese wallscrolls and pictures of anime babes, does that make me an expert in japan and women? He also had a really big beard
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Jul 6, 2016 16:28
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SeanBeansShako posted:drink gin every day. Same
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Jul 6, 2016 16:30
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Ainsley McTree posted:He also had a really big beard so do i
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Jul 6, 2016 16:34
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007 drink gin erryday
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Jul 6, 2016 16:38
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Ainsley McTree posted:I just watched a video where an expert claimed that Vikings were such fearsome warriors because they didn't fear death, on account of how they believed they were going to Valhalla. Norse sagas and accounts of Vikings commonly speak of Berserkers, warriors who went without armour, fought in a blind fearless fury, who refuse to retreat "from fire or iron". There's enough accounts to probably conclude this was a real phenomenon, whether brought through training or through some type of drugs. However, the fact that such accounts exist underlines the point that this is *unusual*. If your average Viking didn't fear death, why do they write stories about these big scary madmen? Then look at things like Beowulf, and the sorry story of everyone in that tale *except* Beowulf and Wiglaf. Beowulf was fiction, for sure, but the depiction in that story cannot have been *too absurd*. Afterlifes are not a Viking invention.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:48
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YouTube video guy might be suffering from a weird case of a reinactor playing fanfiction with his craft and beliefs. Some reinactors (not all, some are decent!) can be quite odd sometimes. Except HEY GAL who's awesome.
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Jul 6, 2016 16:57
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Rockopolis posted:007 drink gin erryday 007 drank vodka martinis.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:08
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SeanBeansShako posted:YouTube video guy might be suffering from a weird case of a reinactor playing fanfiction with his craft and beliefs. Some reinactors (not all, some are decent!) can be quite odd sometimes. Except HEY GAL who's awesome.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:09
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HEY GAL posted:are you saying there's nothing odd about what i do I wish to live in a world where we can all get drunk and shoot off cannons every day. EDIT: I didn't know forgotten weapons had their own website! SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 17:18
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SeanBeansShako posted:I wish to live in a world where we can all get drunk and shoot off cannons every day. 
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Jul 6, 2016 17:36
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Walk me through this one: why would Viking belief in Valhalla produce less fear of death than Christian belief in Heaven?
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Jul 6, 2016 17:36
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HEY GAL posted:are you saying there's nothing odd about what i do Speaking of you and your predilections I was reminded of something from grad school. I had a buddy who was researching SS trials from the 60s. As part of that he read a lot of Wehrmacht and SS personnel files that were entered as evidence. One of his main guys got in some poo poo and was busted from oberleutnant to leutnant. Why? He got drunk as gently caress on garrison duty behind the lines in the Ukraine somewhere and emptied his service pistol out the window. Somewhere the ghost of a Landesknecht nodded approvingly.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:36
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The 30yw did sound fun
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Jul 6, 2016 17:37
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Cyrano4747 posted:Speaking of you and your predilections I was reminded of something from grad school.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:38
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Can anyone explain the psychology of a rout? I was reading more accounts of Barbarossa and I'm sill wrapping my head around road junctions full of empty vehicles and fields piled with discarded equipment. Is there a psychological difference between that and times when a defeated army was able to retreat with heavy losses? I'm thinking of the German retreats after the Anzio breakout and the Falaise Pocket.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:45
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Kellsterik posted:Walk me through this one: why would Viking belief in Valhalla produce less fear of death than Christian belief in Heaven? Valhalla's fighty heaven, isn't it? I guess the idea is that fighters are gonna be more gung ho about it than the "hold Jesus in your heart" heaven (or whatever the theology of the time and place was) Or, more likely, that it's mostly bullshit
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Jul 6, 2016 17:48
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Phobophilia posted:my house is filled with japanese wallscrolls and pictures of anime babes, does that make me an expert in japan and women? In my experience it makes you self-identify with Japan so much you got offended by those Sapporo beer commercials from a few years ago because you felt they were a Stereotype  Also note this is actually something I witnessed, not a joke e: Valhalla is a Viking conception of heaven. It's filled with your bros, you drink and fight all the time, and there are all these hot women named after aspects of war. Interestingly I think your actual Viking raiders were into Thor, who was a lot more rapey than his Marvel incarnation Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 17:48
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Frosted Flake posted:Can anyone explain the psychology of a rout? I was reading more accounts of Barbarossa and I'm sill wrapping my head around road junctions full of empty vehicles and fields piled with discarded equipment.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:50
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A route is when it's every man for himself and you're just trying to save your skin. An army in retreat is still an army, a routed one is just a mass of individuals who might still be wearing uniforms trying to get away.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:53
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Are you running as fast as you can from the enemy? If the you is a single person that ditches your truck when it runs out of gas, it's a rout. If the you is a unit that can fight a delaying action and you don't ditch your truck because you'll get more gas, it's a retreat. E: These posts are a rout, there's no coordination even though they have a common objective. I think the truck test is a good way to sum up a rout psychologically. Is there trust that things are still working and paperwork is happening to keep it that way? HEY GAL posted:you have a pistol, you have a window, it's self evident Silly American pilots using doors. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 17:57
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I would point out that the distinction between the two can frequently become rather vague.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:02
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Ainsley McTree posted:Well the guy was a Viking expert, and he lived in a hut with painted shields and axes and stuff so maybe he knows his stuff? However the video was mostly about trains so they didn't spend a lot of time getting into Viking religious beliefs, it was more of a soundbite There's lots of instances where the vikings land and steal poo poo in X_country, and pile into their boats to go somewhere else when the local lord raises enough troops to properly fight them. They knew they weren't invincible, and other peoples were perfectly willing to fight them. By and large, the average viking raider was just some guy who lived in Denmark and stole poo poo on the regular. You don't need to be Beowulf to rob peasants.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:09
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I always took it that they were not "not afraid" in a fearless / suicidal sense but they embraced death knowing it is inevitable and that an honorable death on the battlefield trumps all others and worked that into their belief system. So it wasn't that they were unafraid to die, they just saw it as the logical conclusion to being a bad rear end
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Jul 6, 2016 18:32
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xthetenth posted:Are you running as fast as you can from the enemy? working towards the OP
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Jul 6, 2016 18:34
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EX250 Type R posted:I always took it that they were not "not afraid" in a fearless / suicidal sense but they embraced death knowing it is inevitable and that an honorable death on the battlefield trumps all others and worked that into their belief system. So it wasn't that they were unafraid to die, they just saw it as the logical conclusion to being a bad rear end How is this any different from a crusader, mujahideen, or some Kipling or SS die hard just oozing nationalistic fervor? Being willing to die in combat because you think you have an eternal reward or are contributing to a cause beyond your self isn't exactly unique to Vikings.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:54
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EX250 Type R posted:I always took it that they were not "not afraid" in a fearless / suicidal sense but they embraced death knowing it is inevitable and that an honorable death on the battlefield trumps all others and worked that into their belief system. So it wasn't that they were unafraid to die, they just saw it as the logical conclusion to being a bad rear end Just because it's a big part of mythology and belief doesn't meant that they stopped being human. I'm sure a lot of vikings talked game, but we have plenty of records vikings losing fights and running away, on various scales. There was probably a small core of die-hard warriors, but that's true of almost any culture.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:25
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Grand Prize Winner posted:working towards the OP Well played.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:50
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Cyrano4747 posted:How is this any different from a crusader, mujahideen, or some Kipling or SS die hard just oozing nationalistic fervor? it isn't different at all imo and i didnt claim it was unique Slim Jim Pickens posted:Just because it's a big part of mythology and belief doesn't meant that they stopped being human. and i didnt say they were inhuman The United States Army is arguably the highest trained and most lethal fighting force known to humanity and look at the win/loss record there. Look at any 'backwards' group doing war poo poo, such as isis or one of their peers, and you see plenty of the same poo poo romanticized in the days of old just with modern weapons and darker skin
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Jul 6, 2016 20:23
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Nebakenezzer posted:intruder missions with Ju 88s against british bombers Luftwaffle night fighters are my favorite WW2 planes. They look like clumsy dragonflies. Not Ju88s:    
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Jul 6, 2016 20:28
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