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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This is not even getting into the issues with the writing, editing, bloat, etc. Yeah, no poo poo you're not actually getting into anything.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:10
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If you feel there's a 1 or 2 in your gut, you have my permission to go relieve yourself.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:11
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, no poo poo you're not actually getting into anything. Those complaints are all well-trodden. I was just responding to the people asking why people were so upset that BvS was mediocre, but they aren't as upset about plenty of other medicore movies. Expectations and felling like you didn't get what you thought you would makes people take the loss harder and assess it more harshly that they otherwise would.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:16
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wrong thread
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Jul 6, 2016 17:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Those complaints are all well-trodden. "The writing is bad" and such is well-trodden, not actually getting into it.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Those complaints are all well-trodden. No they aren't. They have been repeated, amplified, but not elaborated upon. Hardly formed at all. The truth is that you cannot account for the incredible visceral reaction, which is why you've redefined 'mediocrity' to mean something entirely different.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:26
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Shageletic posted:Ah yes its the audiences fault. 
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Jul 6, 2016 17:31
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greatn posted:MGS2 is prescient as gently caress and I can hardly believe it's a pre 9/11 game. A few years after it came out Kojima or someone started talking about it in a post-mortem and apparently the original name for Metal Gear Solid 2 was Metal Gear Solid III. Also it made absolutely no sense to me as an idiot child but when I saw the cutscenes and stuff again a few months ago it all clicked in place. quote:But I digress to something more constructive: What if Batman v Superman wasn't in color?! Fury Road works better but that's still pretty good. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 17:34
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NikkolasKing posted:Batman comes off like a complete fool - thrre is not even the vaguest hint of a suggestion he's in the right. Alfred is the stand-in for the audience/Bruce's conscience. Bruce did not do this for the lives lost, or because Superman might go evil (a possibility that is somewhat hinted at but nobody is buying), he did it because of his own psychological flaws and vulnerabilities. Flaws and vulnerabilities that were easily exploited by a villain a lot of people seem to not take particularly seriously. Why are you criticizing a movie for portraying violent paranoia as bad?
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Jul 6, 2016 17:42
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Here's what most normal folk recognize when they're young. Batman is not a good hero or something to be admired. He is a broken individual with severe problems that doesn't actually do proper good compared to the adults running his charities and industries while he sits in his moms basement off their money dressed in pajamas burning his friends hardcore with his cool toys so he can punch people in the face and kill his underlings while getting a woman pregnant out of wedlock. Batman Inc is the closest he came to doing anything worthwhile.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Why are you criticizing a movie for portraying violent paranoia as bad? Because you don't need to be violently paranoid to be nervous about Superman's existence. The senator lady showed that perfectly good and reasonable people can have issues with his methods. Batman has many problems but being an irrational bigot who hates someone for merely existing is not typically one of them. He hates Superman for entirely unjustified, irrational reasons because a giggling madman played him like a fiddle.
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Jul 6, 2016 17:56
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NikkolasKing posted:Batman has many problems but being an irrational bigot who hates someone for merely existing is not typically one of them. He hates Superman for entirely unjustified, irrational reasons because a giggling madman played him like a fiddle. How is this a problem for the movie?
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Jul 6, 2016 17:59
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I find it nice that in many incarnations Alfred is the one crashing against the rocks trying to drag his boy to a sense of adulthood and normalcy. Nolan ended his trilogy right. Bruce and Selena leave to live a life together and a better hero takes the mantle.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:00
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NikkolasKing posted:Because you don't need to be violently paranoid to be nervous about Superman's existence. The senator lady showed that perfectly good and reasonable people can have issues with his methods. Then the Senator lady is killed, and Wayne effectively goes on a quest to avenge her. Bruce Wayne is actually a very rational bigot. He knows exactly what he's doing.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:How is this a problem for the movie? Because people wanted Batman to come off like a party with a legitimate cause as opposed to a lunatic trying to commit murder. One of Batman's key features is his intelligence. We see practically no evidence of that in this movie. We just see a crazy rear end in a top hat and while you could argue that was a component of his character in various versions, it was never the whole thing.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:03
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NikkolasKing posted:Because people wanted Batman to come off like a party with a legitimate cause as opposed to a lunatic trying to commit murder. Batman has never been legitimate, and intelligence does not preclude bigotry. I'm beginning to think that Batman fans don't actually like Batman.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Batman has never been legitimate, and intelligence does not preclude bigotry. Or maybe you don't possess a monopoly on interpretation of a complicated character spanning decades and several writers. You're perfectly entitled to your views but I think it's pretty damned arrogant to say others are inferior to you because of those views. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 18:07
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It's not like Batman was tricked or something. He just concluded that a couple supertankers being pulled out of the ice was not worth the lingering possibility of another Metropolis-class disaster. Also, that alien bastard was gonna pay for smashing up his ride.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 18:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Or maybe you don't possess a monopoly on interpretation of a complicated character spanning decades and several writers. I do not possess anything. What I have written is simply true. I am an advanced chatbot, designed to write truthfully and accurately. NikkolasKing posted:You're perfectly entitled to your views but I think it's pretty damned arrogant to say others are inferior to you because of those views. I am the ultimate killing machine.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:15
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Supermechagodzilla posted:I'm beginning to think that Batman fans don't actually like my Batman. 
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Jul 6, 2016 18:16
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:If anything MGS2 is better now than it was then. Way ahead of its time. I keep really wanting to revisit it, but gently caress the bomb disposal section.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:21
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NikkolasKing posted:Because people wanted Oh, so it's not a problem with the movie.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:23
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NikkolasKing posted:Because people wanted Batman to come off like a party with a legitimate cause as opposed to a lunatic trying to commit murder. NikkolasKing posted:Or maybe you don't possess a monopoly on interpretation of a complicated character spanning decades and several writers. These seem like contradictory statements to me.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:25
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Timeless Appeal posted:
I would say that people who DON'T think about movies weren't engaged by it. The people who DO think about movies liked it or disliked it based on their own merits and tolerances.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:30
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Basebf555 posted:These seem like contradictory statements to me. I wouldn't say so. I never said someone isn't a Batman fan because they had a different view of the character than I did. Moreover, I was merely highlighting complaints I've read about the movie from Batman fans. I'm not even a big Batman fan. I read a few comics but mostly I just go by the DCAU. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 18:34
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NikkolasKing posted:I wouldn't say so. I never said someone isn't a Batman fan because they had a different view of the character than I did. So you're just arguing with SMG about whether or not you're a Batman fan? My mistake, I thought we were discussing the movie. I'd think by now Batman fans would be very used to seeing many different variations of the character. I don't really see anything in this one that hasn't been done before.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:37
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Basebf555 posted:So you're just arguing with SMG about whether or not you're a Batman fan? My mistake, I thought we were discussing the movie. We were until they made it about the audience and not the movie. SuperMechagodzilla posted:I'm beginning to think that Batman fans don't actually like Batman.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:40
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NikkolasKing posted:We were until they made it about the audience and not the movie. Never been in the Star Wars thread eh? Can't blame you.
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Jul 6, 2016 18:45
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There are multiple interpretations of Batman and everyone is allowed to like or dislike what we get on a screen. That being said, I don't see any appreciable difference between BvS Batman and the mythical Batman other posters are talking about. Bruce Wayne is a very smart guy. It's very possible for smart people to be conned, especially if the guy orchestrating the con is someone who is also super smart and has the resources to 1) find out your secret identity and 2) use his wealth and resources to direct your insulated two-man operation away from anything incriminating that might lead you off the path he wants you to travel down. These complaints about Batman being "too dumb" or "too bigoted" in the film don't line up with what the film presents us with, which is that Bruce Wayne is now older than his father ever was (old and tired), has lost his partner to extreme violence (disillusioned and lost his connection to the outside world), has watched good people fall to corruption (Gotham City's existence), and has lost his faith in people (he immediately assumes that Superman was at fault, because why not?) The movie is just as much the story about how Batman got his groove back as much as it's about Superman and Batman fighting.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:09
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HIJK posted:The movie is just as much the story about how Batman got his groove back as much as it's about Superman and Batman fighting. I'd say that's what the entire movie is about, which is why I find these complaints so odd. Of course he's different than what we're used to, its a necessary starting point for the story Snyder is telling.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:16
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Batman buying into a reverse Pascal's Wager doesn't make him crazy per se--it seems like a pretty Batman-y thing to do.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I'm beginning to think that Batman fans don't actually like Batman.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:30
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wyoming posted:I keep really wanting to revisit it, but gently caress the bomb disposal section. It's not just the "memes" stuff, or pre-9/11 false flag paranoia that holds up, but the idea of a timed underwater escort mission that you later backtrack through is one of the best videogame jokes I can think of. What balls that Kojima guy has.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:30
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Sir Kodiak posted:"The writing is bad" and such is well-trodden, not actually getting into it. The writing isn't even bad with the context of the UC. It seemed bad, and unfinished because it literally was. Except it was less a writing issue and a hundred percent a editing issue. The film is way too long and the story, I still think is a lot more over complicated than it should've been...but it's not "bad". Not by a long shot. Well, unless you're watching the Theatrical. Then it's poo poo.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:34
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HIJK posted:These complaints about Batman being "too dumb" or "too bigoted" in the film don't line up with what the film presents us with, which is that Bruce Wayne is now older than his father ever was (old and tired), has lost his partner to extreme violence (disillusioned and lost his connection to the outside world), has watched good people fall to corruption (Gotham City's existence), and has lost his faith in people (he immediately assumes that Superman was at fault, because why not?) The movie is just as much the story about how Batman got his groove back as much as it's about Superman and Batman fighting. See, this is all fine the way you say it. An old, jaded Batman is a fine idea. They made one of the most iconic and beloved Batman comics out of that idea. But I didn't think that was expressed very well. Like, I never felt this was an old, jaded Batman. You mentioned his partner dying? Do you mean that business dude at the start of the movie who didn't evacuate with everyone else for some reason? When you first mentioned his partner dying I thought "did I miss the fact Robin existed in this movie in some form?" and I think that would have been a far more effective background to build on. I think the outline you listed is pretty great but the actual execution leaves a lot to be desired. The only suggestion we have that he's different now is the criminal who is branded and I think the cop makes a comment about how this is new, or his tone suggests it is new. Then the opposite is also true in a way. Batman goes from 0 to murder and then back again really frickin' fast. When he rescues Martha he says he's a friend of her sons. You will recall he tried to brutally murder her son not ten minutes ago. And then there's Alfred whose most memorable line to me was "So falls the House of Wayne." Does he ever make any note or comment about Bruce's miraculous recovery? I'm pretty sure he has dialogue after the "MARTHA" incident. Yet, when I'm sure he should be overjoyed that the boy he's raised didn't grow up to be a murderer or to get himself killed, there's nothing to indicate this. It really did feel like this movie wanted too much. If it had been a straight Batman vs. Superman movie, no Luthor, then Batman cooling down" could have been handled a lot better at least.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:36
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's not just the "memes" stuff, or pre-9/11 false flag paranoia that holds up, but the idea of a timed underwater escort mission that you later backtrack through is one of the best videogame jokes I can think of. What balls that Kojima guy has. Genius auteur and weapons-grade pervert Hideo Kojima is one of the true artists of our time.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:36
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Usually the writing "issues" means a character didn't look into the camera and explain why they're doing a thing(black panther in cw), and the writing even goes out of its way to get the idea but never be on the nose. That doesn't explain Eisenberg's critiques of his motivations being unknown. I just think people shut off their brain when he was on screen, since many people have an aversion to his very screen presence. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 19:37
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It really blows my mind how SMG can completely just get under someones skin with a little gentle ribbing. I think he might live in a world of cardboard (egos.) Though people who are upset that Batman is plainly portrayed as the bad guy I think are kind of missing the point. Batman Vs. Superman isn't really about "Which side is right!??! Who will win?!?" Batman is clearly in the wrong and there is really no need to muddle it with some truth is in the middle prevarications that really wouldn't do anything but help rationalize/justify Batmans bigotry and anger. I'm not sure a big superhero movie that bravely posits the question: "What if anti-immigrant bigots actually kinda have a point maybe? Nah let's just forget it for now and be friends" is a huge improvement. The conflict isn't about who is right - it's about whether or not Superman can redeem Batman (and conversely, the rest of humanity.) Also Bruce is wicked smart and intelligent even if he is wrong as hell on a moral level. In truth it is because he is both unreasonable and suitably ruthless the dude literally manages to get Superman at his mercy and would have killed him; it's not a question of intelligence or skill whatsoever as it is about burning rage and resentment and misplaced priorities. NikkolasKing posted:Or maybe you don't possess a monopoly on interpretation of a complicated character spanning decades and several writers. I'm curious - from which statement do you infer that SMG believes themself to be superior to you? (Or suggests that you are "inferior.") Is it because he suggested that Batman fans don't actually like Batman? That's generally just a pretty blanket statement that many enthusiasts fail to critically engage with the actual material relating to the character they idolize. I obviously don't speak for anybody excepy myself, but, I doubt SuperMechaGodzilla would say he is superior to you because he believes you don't actually like Batman. Like if that's the case I'm sure the argument for superiority goes a lot deeper than legitimate Batman fandom. To be honest, I don't think SMG is actually even a Batman fan (or fan of anything. Maybe Godzilla) And he actually does possess a monopoly on said fictional interpretation etc. You do too. Canon/Continuity is really just a marketing conceit that is somewhat unnecessary to fiction. It's all fiction you are experiencing and interpreting. It's entirely up to you to sort, organize and associate fiction. There is only one continuous universe and it's ours. The only creative committee that should matter to anyone is the one in their head. (In mine Ike Perlmutter is chained up in a gimpsuit. Sorry, that's canon.) To go on a bit of a tangent, I believe that one of the bigger stumbling blocks for good conversation regarding movies is that goons/comic fans/etc. just aren't as confident in their abilities to interpret art and speak authoritatively and naturally react badly when someone does so. You don't need formal education on a subject to speak with authority on subjects like these - just like good academic writing it's less about qualifications and a lot more about doing the actual work of thinking and writing and doing your homework while you are at it.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:39
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Ferrinus posted:Genius auteur and weapons-grade pervert Hideo Kojima is one of the true artists of our time. He's a damned sage and we should all be so lucky that he made people waste their time realistically modeling what bullets do to watermelons or ice melting or whatever, or making sure that the pregnant Russian commando you have to be careful not to kill has hairy armpits.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:40
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NikkolasKing posted:See, this is all fine the way you say it. An old, jaded Batman is a fine idea. They made one of the most iconic and beloved Batman comics out of that idea. But I didn't think that was expressed very well. Like, I never felt this was an old, jaded Batman. You mentioned his partner dying? Do you mean that business dude at the start of the movie who didn't evacuate with everyone else for some reason? When you first mentioned his partner dying I thought "did I miss the fact Robin existed in this movie in some form?" and I think that would have been a far more effective background to build on. Its like you didn't even watch the movie. All this stuff is definitely in there.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:44
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