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NikkolasKing posted:See, this is all fine the way you say it. An old, jaded Batman is a fine idea. They made one of the most iconic and beloved Batman comics out of that idea. But I didn't think that was expressed very well. Like, I never felt this was an old, jaded Batman. You mentioned his partner dying? Do you mean that business dude at the start of the movie who didn't evacuate with everyone else for some reason? When you first mentioned his partner dying I thought "did I miss the fact Robin existed in this movie in some form?" and I think that would have been a far more effective background to build on. You watched the UC, the stuff you mention in your post is addressed in the movie. Batfleck stares at a Robin costume. Batman thanks Alfred for always being there for him before the Martha rescue and Alfred responds. His line to Martha is make her feel more at ease, he knows he is not Supes best bro or anything.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:45
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NikkolasKing posted:Like, I never felt this was an old, jaded Batman. You mentioned his partner dying? Do you mean that business dude at the start of the movie who didn't evacuate with everyone else for some reason? When you first mentioned his partner dying I thought "did I miss the fact Robin existed in this movie in some form?" and I think that would have been a far more effective background to build on. I thought that was the point of the Robin costume in the Batcave with "ha ha ha ha!" spray painted on it? Aren't there several long discussions between Bruce and Alfred that basically say "you are old and broken", "Bruce Wayne can accomplish more than angry Batman", etc. Edit: drat!
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Jul 6, 2016 19:45
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There's only so many on-the-nose monologues a script can have before it becomes enough and its just on the audience to receive the message or not.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:47
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Picard Day posted:I'm curious - from which statement do you infer that SMG believes themself to be superior to you? (Or suggests that you are "inferior.") Is it because he suggested that Batman fans don't actually like Batman? That's generally just a pretty blanket statement that many enthusiasts fail to critically engage with the actual material relating to the character they idolize. I obviously don't speak for anybody excepy myself, but, I doubt SuperMechaGodzilla would say he is superior to you because he believes you don't actually like Batman. Like if that's the case I'm sure the argument for superiority goes a lot deeper than legitimate Batman fandom. To be honest, I don't think SMG is actually even a Batman fan (or fan of anything. Maybe Godzilla) It read to me like No True Scotsman. I pointed out Batman was in the wrong here and he didn't need to be and SMG said that Batman is pretty much always in the wrong and criticized people who like him for not understanding this "fact." quote:And he actually does possess a monopoly on said fictional interpretation etc. You do too. Canon/Continuity is really just a marketing conceit that is somewhat unnecessary to fiction. It's all fiction you are experiencing and interpreting. It's entirely up to you to sort, organize and associate fiction. There is only one continuous universe and it's ours. The only creative committee that should matter to anyone is the one in their head. (In mine Ike Perlmutter is chained up in a gimpsuit. Sorry, that's canon.) I perhaps did jump the gun for the reason you outline. I'm not good in new places in general and I'm new to this thread so I feel a bit on edge. Also, as you said, I'm not exactly the most confident person in general. This thread has already gone into huge walls of text discussing symbolism and poo poo that never even crossed my mind which kinda only exacerbated a feeling of being out of my depth. I apologize for overreacting, SMG. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 19:48
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NikkolasKing posted:huge walls of text discussing symbolism and poo poo that never even crossed my mind which kinda only exacerbated a feeling of being out of my depth. This is why I stuck around this subforum. I had similar feelings back in my lurking days.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:50
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Violator posted:I thought that was the point of the Robin costume in the Batcave with "ha ha ha ha!" spray painted on it? Aren't there several long discussions between Bruce and Alfred that basically say "you are old and broken", "Bruce Wayne can accomplish more than angry Batman", etc. I honestly missed the Robin costume scene. I don't remember that at all. I'm not the most observant guy. My bad and I retract that criticism absolutely.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:50
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NikkolasKing posted:It read to me like No True Scotsman. I pointed out Batman was in the wrong here and he didn't need to be and SMG said that Batman is pretty much always in the wrong and criticized people who like him for not understanding this "fact." Don't worry, hang around for awhile and you'll be just like us and see dicks literally everywhere. It's a silly life.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:54
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Picard Day posted:Don't worry, hang around for awhile and you'll be just like us and see dicks literally everywhere. It's a silly life. I've never enjoyed movies more than when I started reading this forum.
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Jul 6, 2016 19:57
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bushisms.txt posted:I've never enjoyed movies more than when I started reading this forum. Empty quoting this.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:02
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This is why Man of Steel is secretly the best super hero movie ever Dicks be everywhere
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Jul 6, 2016 20:07
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NikkolasKing posted:I honestly missed the Robin costume scene. I don't remember that at all. I'm not the most observant guy. He sort of gives this bad boy a sad look 
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Jul 6, 2016 20:15
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Burkion posted:This is why Man of Steel is secretly the best super hero movie ever Just watched this again for the first time since release last night. What a beautiful joy of a film. Gonna watch the ultimate cut tonight, but the parallels are already really apparent. Jor-el had so many plans, you'd think he was Batman's dad.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:21
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MacheteZombie posted:. His line to Martha is make her feel more at ease, he knows he is not Supes best bro or anything. I like the idea that Superman called his mom to bitch about this crazy weirdo he's dealing with.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:23
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Basebf555 posted:Its like you didn't even watch the movie. All this stuff is definitely in there. Just to clarify a bit because it is a fairly quick shot, there's a moment where Bruce is in the batcave and he looks up at a Robin costume in a glass case with "HA HA HA! Joke's on you, Batman!" scrawled in yellow spray paint on it, implying pretty heavily that the Joker killed Robin a la Death of the Family at some unspecified date in the past. Edit - Beaten like the PMC goons in the warehouse scene And not to derail any further but every MGS game owns for usually very different reasons. God bless you, Kojima. When the comic book bubble pops someday, no doubt they'll mine beloved game franchises more frequently for adaptations. Hopefully they do MGS justice when that day comes. MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 6, 2016 |
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Jul 6, 2016 20:25
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NikkolasKing posted:See, this is all fine the way you say it. An old, jaded Batman is a fine idea. They made one of the most iconic and beloved Batman comics out of that idea. But I didn't think that was expressed very well. Like, I never felt this was an old, jaded Batman. You mentioned his partner dying? Do you mean that business dude at the start of the movie who didn't evacuate with everyone else for some reason? When you first mentioned his partner dying I thought "did I miss the fact Robin existed in this movie in some form?" and I think that would have been a far more effective background to build on. Yeah, I do agree the presentation was lacking. I think that's just the weakness of Snyder's directing style. It's very stark and Spartan, so you have to read a lot of textual clues to understand everything that's going on. When it comes to Robin being killed, the previews and trailers talk about how the Robin who died is the one who was clubbed to death by the Joker with a crowbar. In one of the trailer's Btuce has a narration that says "my partner has been murdered," and includes a shot of the Robin suit:  I have not seen the Ultimate Edition yet but there's supposed to be some scenes talking about this development, that Robin has been murdered by the Joker and that this is what sent Bruce into a tailspin. I think it's a weakness in the theater cut because the audience never saw the part the murder played in setting Bruce down his path of despair.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:50
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The Robin thing is superfluous anyway. What about the entire opening with the Wayne Building collapsing? What about the scene where Alfred chastises Bruce for going too far with the brands? What about the scene where Bruce explains his reasoning to Alfred, the "20 years in Gotham and how many good men are left" scene? What about the fact that Bruce doesn't even live in the mansion anymore and is letting it rot? I don't really see how it could be any more clear that this Batman is beaten down, tired, and even more pessimistic than usual. Every other scene hammers that aspect of his character home, if anything I might criticize the movie for emphasizing it too much.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:57
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HIJK posted:I have not seen the Ultimate Edition yet but there's supposed to be some scenes talking about this development, that Robin has been murdered by the Joker and that this is what sent Bruce into a tailspin. I think it's a weakness in the theater cut because the audience never saw the part the murder played in setting Bruce down his path of despair. We absolutely see that in the theatrical version, based on the shot you posted of Robin's suit and Bruce's reaction to it and its place in the story. There's just no dialog about it. Nor is there any in the ultimate cut.
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Jul 6, 2016 20:59
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Sir Kodiak posted:We absolutely see that in the theatrical version, based on the shot you posted of Robin's suit and Bruce's reaction to it and its place in the story. There's just no dialog about it. Nor is there any in the ultimate cut. I think it needed that dialogue though, I imagine most audience members wouldn't immediately identify that as the Robin suit. The quick shot of the suit certainly indicates that someone close to Batman died but I think that aspect should have been developed more in the theatrical version because it's kind of a big deal. On the other hand this is also true: Basebf555 posted:The Robin thing is superfluous anyway. What about the entire opening with the Wayne Building collapsing? What about the scene where Alfred chastises Bruce for going too far with the brands? What about the scene where Bruce explains his reasoning to Alfred, the "20 years in Gotham and how many good men are left" scene? What about the fact that Bruce doesn't even live in the mansion anymore and is letting it rot? I don't really see how it could be any more clear that this Batman is beaten down, tired, and even more pessimistic than usual. Every other scene hammers that aspect of his character home, if anything I might criticize the movie for emphasizing it too much.
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Jul 6, 2016 21:07
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HIJK posted:I think it needed that dialogue though, I imagine most audience members wouldn't immediately identify that as the Robin suit. The quick shot of the suit certainly indicates that someone close to Batman died but I think that aspect should have been developed more in the theatrical version because it's kind of a big deal. If you don't know enough about Robin to recognize the suit, then knowing it's Robin is irrelevant and you just need to know that someone close to Batman died horribly and Batman was mocked about it by the killer.
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Jul 6, 2016 21:10
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Maybe it's just me, but I think the movie not taking pains to hang a lantern on every plot or character detail is a point in its favor. I appreciate it when a movie trusts me to pick up on what it's laying down, even if I don't get everything as a result. BvS gives you lots of character detail and exposition but lots of it isn't done through dialog. I like that we had what was basically Bruce experiencing an alternate timeline due to some residual effect of a future Flash using the Speed Force and not having the movie grind to a halt to explain who these people are, what this hellscape is, and why it all matters. The immediate effect is being just as  as Bruce is, so it works. Hell, I wasn't even sure that was the Flash for a second. But I liked that the movie wasn't afraid to show some stuff that would reward people who love and know the source material even if it meant losing people who didn't as to what exactly is happening. And even if you didn't understand the vision, it's yet another signifier (along with the nightmares and the Robin costume and the decayed Wayne Manor and the branding) that this Batman is under lots of different strains simultaneously. I missed the Mother Box connection in Lex's rant at the end, the Darkseid symbol of evil in the vision sequence, and I only heard about them on this forum. And even if that meant I missed out on some exposition here and there sitting in the theater, it didn't detract from my first viewing and has made the movie tons of fun to reflect on after the fact.
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Jul 6, 2016 21:21
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Sir Kodiak posted:If you don't know enough about Robin to recognize the suit, then knowing it's Robin is irrelevant and you just need to know that someone close to Batman died horribly and Batman was mocked about it by the killer. It worked for me on that level as well but then we had a guy complaining that he didn't know someone important to Batman died even though he saw the Ultimate Cut, soooo... MeatwadIsGod posted:Maybe it's just me, but I think the movie not taking pains to hang a lantern on every plot or character detail is a point in its favor. I appreciate it when a movie trusts me to pick up on what it's laying down, even if I don't get everything as a result. BvS gives you lots of character detail and exposition but lots of it isn't done through dialog. I like that we had what was basically Bruce experiencing an alternate timeline due to some residual effect of a future Flash using the Speed Force and not having the movie grind to a halt to explain who these people are, what this hellscape is, and why it all matters. The immediate effect is being just as TBH I loved this too, and the fact that the film goes out of its way to esoteric as hell and keeps slamming on the accelerator while yelling KEEP UP KEEP UP KEEP UP is a huge weight on the "this film is good" scale for me. I guess I just wish audiences kept up with it more.
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Jul 6, 2016 21:24
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HIJK posted:It worked for me on that level as well but then we had a guy complaining that he didn't know someone important to Batman died even though he saw the Ultimate Cut, soooo... Sucks to be that guy, I guess.
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Jul 6, 2016 21:26
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The "ding ding ding" was something I missed the first time, because he's talking about signs of Revelation, gates being thrown open, etc. But he's also talking about hearing the distinctive sound of a Mother Box. It's only a reference if you want it to be.
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Jul 6, 2016 21:28
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I like the way the music flows with that scene. I don't know if Zimmer did that intentionally or not, but it works. (Zimmer sometimes writes music before the film for certain projects, which I think owns)
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Jul 6, 2016 22:03
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I wish you could show these arguments to someone in 1949 who just read a Batman comic and say "yep, people still know Batman in 2016 bizarrely enough. He stood the test of time for whatever reason. some people even get very engaged in arguing his worth and symbolism in the real world." I wonder how they'd react. It would have to feel like learning that Minions are considered a divisive yet generally beloved shared social heritage by adults and children alike in 2116.
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Jul 6, 2016 22:35
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The benefit of these recent posts is that we are getting a coherent picture of why internet people are extremely upset at the film. The consistently-raised point is that BVS was 'supposed to be' Avengers. Who supposed this? Well, internet people supposed that the studio supposed it. As SnakeBandana's theory goes, Warner Bros is 'trying to be loved' by 'catching up' to the concept of And as the other guy said, the 'failure' to meet this expectation caused such things as the acting, writing, and cinematography to become 'bad' for absolutely no reason. There's nothing actually wrong with them, but the 'Universe' is 'muddled' and therefore everything in the 'Universe' automatically loses 4 points on an arbitrary 10-point scale. So everything boils down to the Avengers "Universe" being 'muddled', and we are left with one fundamental question: what makes the Universe muddled? Why aren't things the way they're supposed to be? Answer: it's not actually a universe. It's a series of films. BVS is nothing more than Part 2 in a tetralogy of Justice League films. There are a handful of planned spin-offs, but those aren't particularly important. There are no Suicide Squad references in the film. All the characters introduced are characters who will appear in Justice League 3. It is almost exactly the same as the uncontroversial X-Men trilogy, with its eventual spin-offs (Wolverine, Deadpool, etc.). There are various hints that this is not the introduction to a static Universe, like the fact that one protagonist dies and the other has a massive character arc based on trilogy of unrelated films. Under the 'Universe' theory, we are 'supposed to' see a pure incarnation of Batman: Batman at his best, doing unchallenging Batman things. Punch some criminals in the face or whatever. The basic fact that this doesn't happen is perceived as an affront to God - since it is ultimately He who supposes everything in all our universes Now, apply this logic to literally everything.
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Jul 6, 2016 22:39
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:He's a damned sage and we should all be so lucky that he made people waste their time realistically modeling what bullets do to watermelons or ice melting or whatever, or making sure that the pregnant Russian commando you have to be careful not to kill has hairy armpits. In another subforum someone pointed out that he designed MGS1 levels out of Legos & used his finger to show camera placement and stuff to his team.
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Jul 6, 2016 23:09
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Hat Thoughts posted:In another subforum someone pointed out that he designed MGS1 levels out of Legos & used his finger to show camera placement and stuff to his team. That loving rules.
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Jul 6, 2016 23:29
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Detective Dog Dick posted:That loving rules. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6aPAncMHKA
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Jul 6, 2016 23:32
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HIJK posted:It worked for me on that level as well but then we had a guy complaining that he didn't know someone important to Batman died even though he saw the Ultimate Cut, soooo... I have a visual impairment. As such, other people probably had no trouble identifying the Robin suit. This is not a mark against the film since it's more my problem.
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Jul 6, 2016 23:58
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NikkolasKing posted:I have a visual impairment. As such, other people probably had no trouble identifying the Robin suit. Does the film have audio description? I remember Daredevil season 2 did, and the audio description track was practically the best part.
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Jul 7, 2016 00:10
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greatn posted:Does the film have audio description? I remember Daredevil season 2 did, and the audio description track was practically the best part. I... don't know. I've never heard or used something like that. I wouldn't even know where to turn it on.
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Jul 7, 2016 00:13
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NikkolasKing posted:I... don't know. I've never heard or used something like that. I wouldn't even know where to turn it on. It's usually in the subtitle section of DVDs
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Jul 7, 2016 00:14
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Electromax posted:I wish you could show these arguments to someone in 1949 who just read a Batman comic and say "yep, people still know Batman in 2016 bizarrely enough. He stood the test of time for whatever reason. some people even get very engaged in arguing his worth and symbolism in the real world." I wonder how they'd react. It would have to feel like learning that Minions are considered a divisive yet generally beloved shared social heritage by adults and children alike in 2116. I like to imagine that someday, hundreds or thousands of years in the future, archaeologists will scrutinize whatever trade paperbacks or .cbr files still remain as a way of understanding 20th and 21st century humans. But it's just a fun daydream and the world will probably be engulfed in nuclear fire before then anyway 
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Jul 7, 2016 00:19
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:(also something nobody ever mentions is that Pa Kent might not actually know if Clark can withstand the tornado. Unless you think Pa Kent took Clark into a field and ran him over with a tractor and shot him a couple of times to test his invulnerability - which is a funny image) I know this is so far away from the point but he doesn't need to withstand the tornado clark could have walked out and grabbed the dog and come back at healthy teenager speed and he could have easily not gotten stuck with normal well built teenager strength, like saving the dog and coming back was not something that could only be accomplished by an act of god. also everyone other than clark should be dead anyway cuz the stood in an underpass during a big loving tornado. in the midwest we learn not to do that by age 6
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Jul 7, 2016 05:25
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Maybe it's just me, but I think the movie not taking pains to hang a lantern on every plot or character detail is a point in its favor. I appreciate it when a movie trusts me to pick up on what it's laying down, even if I don't get everything as a result. BvS gives you lots of character detail and exposition but lots of it isn't done through dialog. I like that we had what was basically Bruce experiencing an alternate timeline due to some residual effect of a future Flash using the Speed Force and not having the movie grind to a halt to explain who these people are, what this hellscape is, and why it all matters. The immediate effect is being just as It still feels really odd that the film beats the audience over the head with some of the connections (there's two different scenes that really laboriously establish that the person in the WW1 photo is Diana, and they literally spell it out by having the camera zoom in on Bruce's email to Diana saying "It IS you") but then it doesn't make it at all clear that the guy in the Quickie-Mart security footage is the same guy who timetravelled to warn Bruce.
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Jul 7, 2016 09:31
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JFC, "teenager speed." How about we take the movie and understand what the story it is trying to tell is about. Where was my tactical realism in Alladin, man, all he had to do was stand outside the palace with a boom box and a mixed tape, wtf is this genie poo poo about? Gatts fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 11:24
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Gatts posted:JFC, "teenager speed." How about we take the movie and understand what the story it is trying to tell is about. Once you get stuck arguing about "Why did the character make this decision" it's often really hard to step outside that mindset and make the move to "What was the filmmaker trying to convey with this scene". Lord knows I know I've been guilty of that plenty of times. Edit: the answer to "Why did the character do that?" is pretty much always "Because the story required them to take that action" so I guess a better question would be "Why didn't the depiction of the scene work for me?" Quite often it's a problem with the film breaking its own internal logic, or a situation not being set up sufficiently, or prior exposition got cut, or a longer speech got cut down and the message got slightly changed, or a scene got moved to a different point int he movie, etc etc etc.. Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 11:29
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I think the scene would have worked better with child actor Clark instead of Cavill
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Jul 7, 2016 12:21
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Gatts posted:JFC, "teenager speed." How about we take the movie and understand what the story it is trying to tell is about.  Man, why is this guy so upset? If he'd calm down everything would be fine. He's so bendy too :/
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