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confederacy of dunces is fine. i think it falls into the same category as vonnegut in that i think it's most potent when read as an adolescent, both because the ideas will seem fresher but also because i think the acquired public reputation of these books cannot help but exceed das ding an sich. it is not as good as it is purported to be, but it is still quite good. i'm sure the multithousand page fantasy novels are bad, but that is due to my bayesian priors on such matters. please resist the goonian urge to hateread these books in obsessive detail so your critiques shift from "this books seem bad" to "the books are laughably inconsistent. the orc wizard in the first book has grey hair, but on page 230 of the fourth book, he has black hair!" the creatures outside looked from regular fantasy book reader and ironic fantasy book reader, and from ironic fantasy book reader to regular fantasy book reader; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Jul 7, 2016 18:30
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Beyond sane knolls posted:I like to think he meant "The thing screeched in a manner similar to that of about a thousand known falcons. Not every falcon screeches the way the thing screeched, but at least a thousand do." Mel Mudkiper posted:Its a toss up. On one hand, there is deciding the best embodiment of a personal struggle with disease is a wizard. On the other hand, there is deciding that the disease should be loving leprosy.
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Jul 7, 2016 18:32
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Struggle Against the Booze Wizard would be a cool book idea
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Jul 7, 2016 18:38
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Also, hawks apparently don't really flock together, as they are solitary predators. So getting a thousand together screech in chorus is silly from an ornithological perspective.
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Jul 7, 2016 18:38
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Struggle Against the Booze Wizard would be a cool book idea Isn't that Doctor Sax?
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Jul 7, 2016 18:39
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Franchescanado posted:Also, hawks apparently don't really flock together, as they are solitary predators.
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Jul 7, 2016 18:41
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Beyond sane knolls posted:I like to think he meant "The thing screeched in a manner similar to that of about a thousand known falcons. Not every falcon screeches the way the thing screeched, but at least a thousand do." This actually reads like one of the better parts of The Princess Bride
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Jul 7, 2016 18:44
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:therefore it would be incredibly unusual and alarming to see a flock of a thousand, much as it is unusual and alarming when rape aliens dismember your children. I really hoped the "literature" thread would understand deep metaphors better than this. "Falcons are solitary predators, if you put a thousand of them together they'd be really pissy and squawk at each other all day." "Precisely. That's how you know poo poo just got real."
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Jul 7, 2016 18:49
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Mel in The Vegetarian thread you showed some interest in Literary fantasy, I made a post in the fantasy thread about just that, ( I also got told off for very mildly suggesting that Terry Pratchett wasn't as a good as Jane Austen).fez_machine posted:If you want Literary fantasy here are a few suggestions (beyond this anything published by the Fantasy Masterworks imprint is a good starting point): You might like "The Slovo Stove" by Avram Davidson if you want a Magical Realist emphasis.
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Jul 7, 2016 18:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:This actually reads like one of the better parts of The Princess Bride Nakar posted:The difference being that your way is actually funny and a fantasy full of lovely metaphors the storyteller keeps hedging on and qualifying in ludicrous ways would be enjoyable in the "slightly senile old guy spins you some bullshit that may or may not be true" folk tale style. Do you think R. Scott Bakker would be okay with me rewriting his books with a William Goldman/T.H. White-style narration? Or will he send demons to sex-murder me and my family?
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Jul 7, 2016 19:07
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"I don't like Fantasy. It's not a genre that appeals to me." "Oh! Well, you should read all these Fantasy books." "No, I mean, I've read some Fantasy. It doesn't appeal to me." "Ohhh. Well, then you should read THESE Fantasy books." "No no. Consider that it may take me five hours to read a book. I would rather devote those five hours to a book that doesn't have wizards. Because I don't like them." "Oh, okay. Well, you should read THESE books with wizards, because they're good books with wizards." "They may be good books with wizards, but that is not something I want to read. Because there are wizards. Which I don't like. I have a finite amount of money and time on this planet, and even less time to devote to reading. So wizard books are not a priority to me." "Got it, got it...So, here's a list of fifteen books with wizards that will show you why you should like books with wizards." "Okay, hear this: you like books with wizards. Okay, I accept that. I do not like books with wizards. Can you accept that? So, with a mutual understanding of our interests, I do not want to read a book with wizards, or is a book traditionally considered in the Fantasy genre." "Great. I understand." *Slides a copy of "Moon Wizards and the Rape of Ul'Gath'Ma'Zan" across table* *Wink* EDIT: It's a bitter irony that a genre that constantly has gratuitous rape scenes has a fan base that is constantly trying to push that genre onto other unwilling people. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 19:19
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Franchescanado posted:"I don't like Fantasy. It's not a genre that appeals to me." Honestly, I don't mind people recommending stuff like this to me because I am always looking to expand. And honestly, I did suggest some openness to it in the Vegetarian thread. It's when people act like their wizard books are better than what I am reading and I should read it right away that I get annoyed. fez_machine posted:You might like "The Slovo Stove" by Avram Davidson if you want a Magical Realist emphasis. Thanks, I will take a peak Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 19:24
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Remember when the literary fiction thread was for talking about literary fiction, and when the people in it who liked fantasy realized there was a time and place for that? Those were good times.
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Jul 7, 2016 19:43
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Has anyone else ever read Richard Powers? He is one of my favorite authors and its interesting because his writing is probably the closest I have ever seen to the big red line between sci fi and literature. Like, if you take what sci fi fans say sci fi is, Richard Powers absolutely does it, but he does it in a way that is a lot more subtle than a lot of those authors. His books are all about the influences of science and technology on the human experience, but often in a way that is considerably less grandiose. Three Farmers on their Way to a Dance is a good example. Its about how the explosive growth of technology during modernization was both the best and worst thing to happen to a group of German farmers on the eve of WWI. The Gold Bug Variations uses the cracking of the human genetic code to meditate on our obsession with legacy. Its the best reflection on the philosophy of science in literary form I have ever seen.
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Jul 7, 2016 19:45
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Solitair posted:Remember when the literary fiction thread was for talking about literary fiction, and when the people in it who liked fantasy realized there was a time and place for that?
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Jul 7, 2016 19:46
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:imo we should get back to the discussion a couple of weeks ago about Hideo Kojima Persona 4 is literature
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Jul 7, 2016 19:47
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Books are stupid and only dumb people like them
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Jul 7, 2016 19:50
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Smoking Crow posted:Books are stupid and only dumb people like them I haven't read a fiction book in a month 
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Jul 7, 2016 19:54
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Has anyone else ever read Richard Powers? He is one of my favorite authors and its interesting because his writing is probably the closest I have ever seen to the big red line between sci fi and literature. These look really interesting, I'm going to check them out. I posted that list in here because no one should ever have to go back into The Vegetarian thread again.
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Jul 7, 2016 19:54
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Persona 4 is literature Did you watch Ping Pong: the Animation like I told you to
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Jul 7, 2016 20:01
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I've got the vegetarian on my Kindle now, but I'm travelling abroad in about one month's time and I cba to bring physical books, so I think I'm gonna wait till then before i read it
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Jul 7, 2016 20:06
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corn in the fridge posted:I wonder if fantasy writers read anything other than fantasy They do, but most of them don't even 'get' fantasy, let alone non-fantasy.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:14
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there's an amusing irony somewhere in fantasy fans complaining about being pigeonholed by stuffy literary elitists while also having no interest or empathy w diverse (female, LGBT, black, whatever) authors that are victims of the same thing
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Jul 7, 2016 20:17
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Persona 4 is literature Persona 4 Golden transcends literature
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Jul 7, 2016 20:21
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Cloks posted:Persona 4 Golden transcends literature new chie voice 
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Jul 7, 2016 20:23
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I've been lurking in this thread a bit since the last BOTM, and it's pretty great, though my to-read list is growing at an alarming rate. Also that was my first BOTM, and I hope every month is that exciting. I finished One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest today. I was almost late to a physio appointment as I reached a point where I couldn't stop reading until it was done. I know there's a movie so I might watch that at some point, but the book is still so raw in my head that I don't want to mess with it yet. There were some really beautiful passages in it, like when Bromden goes to the window one night and watches the dog in the moonlight, or when they go out to sea. I don't really understand the title that much though. I know cuckoo can mean crazy, but I also know cuckoo's don't have nests but sneak their eggs into other nests. I always have a hard time working out the meaning of poems/rhymes in books, especially when they are where the title comes from. I've also never read Moby Dick, but there seemed to be a lot of references to it in this book which I think I am missing.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:23
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:there's an amusing irony somewhere in fantasy fans complaining about being pigeonholed by stuffy literary elitists while also having no interest or empathy w diverse (female, LGBT, black, whatever) authors that are victims of the same thing "I don't like female/black authors, all they talk about is being women/black, unlike my authors who talk about human experiences that are universal" - something I hear way too often Smoking Crow posted:new chie voice My trial of the dddddddrrrrrrrraaaaaagggggggooooooonnnnnnnn
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Jul 7, 2016 20:26
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Enfys posted:I've been lurking in this thread a bit since the last BOTM, and it's pretty great, though my to-read list is growing at an alarming rate. Also that was my first BOTM, and I hope every month is that exciting. One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is interesting because it posits a pretty strong "burn em all" position on mental health institutions but post-Reagan we did burn em all and we discovered its a terrible idea. It's like how Fight Club is the ultimate pre-9/11 movie and novel.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:30
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Enfys posted:I don't really understand the title that much though. I know cuckoo can mean crazy, but I also know cuckoo's don't have nests but sneak their eggs into other nests. I always have a hard time working out the meaning of poems/rhymes in books, especially when they are where the title comes from. Note, I haven't read the book in a few years, but: Crazy people are called cuckoo. A mental institution could be called a cuckoo's next. McMurphy is convinced he doesn't belong in the institution, that he is beyond that. He also believes that he can be a Christ figure, a messiah, to these lunatics by letting them live a true life, outside of the oppression of the medical field/nurses/doctors/society. He is also fighting a personal battle to never be controlled by these forces. So, there's a few ways he's "flying over" the cuckoo's nest. It is also an actual nursery rhyme for children, and Nurse Ratched is like an overprotective/cruel mother. You should try The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, since it's all about Ken Kesey after his success with Cuckoo's Nest.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:47
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Mel Mudkiper posted:One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is interesting because it posits a pretty strong "burn em all" position on mental health institutions but post-Reagan we did burn em all and we discovered its a terrible idea. Kesey Was Right, Reagan's real sin in this regard was underfunding community programs =(. But, discussion for another thread.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:52
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Also, most of the perspectives from Cuckoo's Nest comes from Kesey working in mental institutions and being horrified by the conditions, during a time when counter culture was looming and everyone (especially himself) was experimenting with drugs.
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Jul 7, 2016 20:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is interesting because it posits a pretty strong "burn em all" position on mental health institutions but post-Reagan we did burn em all and we discovered its a terrible idea. Yeah, I watched the movie and I was firmly on Ratched's side before that one guy killed himself. If someone like Jack Nicholson's character got in my face like that I'd really want him to gently caress off. Edit: Don't get me wrong, I get how horrible mental health institutions used to be, but McMurphy was portrayed as one step above Robin Williams' portrayal of Patch Adams. If he had triumphed instead of getting lobotomized, the story would be almost completely insufferable. Also, doesn't Chief have really intense hallucinations that aren't apparent in the movie? Solitair fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jul 7, 2016 |
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Jul 7, 2016 21:31
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Solitair posted:Yeah, I watched the movie and I was firmly on Ratched's side before that one guy killed himself. If someone like Jack Nicholson's character got in my face like that I'd really want him to gently caress off. This is interesting, because the book does more to blur the lines, where you can see she is struggling with control. But the movie always makes her seems so goddamn stoic and evil, and I always found it obvious that she's completely disregarding the well-being of her patients just to gently caress with McMurphy because she can, just to prove she's in charge. McMurphey's doesn't begin as a hero, but his rivalry with Ratched ends with him having good intentions (with poor execution). I have never once sympathized with movie Ratched. Solitair posted:Also, doesn't Chief have really intense hallucinations that aren't apparent in the movie? Yes. He has schizophrenia. It's also told from perspective, so it bleeds into the prose and story.
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Jul 7, 2016 21:49
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I'm not sure McMurphy was really portrayed as that great and admirable a guy, though that is based off the book rather than the movie version. I'm not sure that Kesey really sees the problems presented in the book as having a simple answer. Sure in the end Ratched's brutally ordered world of the ward is destroyed, but McMurphy is also destroyed. There's a lot in the last two parts about how McMurphy didn't really want to keep messing with Ratched and the institution she represented, but he felt he had to because the other patients wouldn't and demanded it of him. There seems to be a lot of truth to the other patients' concerns that he is just conning them and has been since he first walked in, just as there seems to be a lot of truth to his anger when he first arrives that the patients' are using him to get what they need and want without having to risk their own necks.
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Jul 7, 2016 21:50
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Mel Mudkiper posted:A Confederacy of Dunces is really well written and very funny and clever and I think the novel stands exceptionally well on its own outside of its "backstory". But...it's not funny.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:04
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Franchescanado posted:But the movie always makes her seems so goddamn stoic and evil, and I always found it obvious that she's completely disregarding the well-being of her patients just to gently caress with McMurphy because she can, just to prove she's in charge. McMurphey's doesn't begin as a hero, but his rivalry with Ratched ends with him having good intentions (with poor execution). Maybe I'm a sociopath, because it came off to me (at first) like she was just unwilling to put up with McMurphy's bullshit. Anyway, the book sounds better and I should read it sometime.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:15
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McMurphy's not an admirable guy, but he's more sympathetic to me than Ratched. He's a career criminal, and he probably does deserve to be in the institution, even though he's only there because he thinks he's breaking the system and getting out of prison. And now he's surrounded by a bunch of new saps. The patients, however, do mold him into this weird figure of freedom. I think it's after the guy drowns himself when he has the change of heart, and he feels defeated. That, and there's no hope for him to ever have his own freedom if he keeps raising hell for the people around him. He's selfish throughout the whole book, because it's fun for him, it's his nature. But it's also an existence where his actions MEAN something. He hurts other people, but he does help them in a weird way. He's liberating them. He's reminding them they are people, humans, and that their existence is under the stern fist of mother figure who is an emotionless robot, who doesn't REALLY care. It's her job. And after he has given the patients a taste of hedonistic freedom, to remind them they are alive, he has an opportunity to escape, to be free, to re-enter the cycle that he's been living his whole life. And instead, he allows himself to take the consequences of his actions. Maybe it's defeat, maybe it's fear, maybe it's because he WANTS to be the Messiah that some of the patients consider them, or it's some kind of selfless act for all the bullshit he's done, or to give Nurse Ratched her inevitable victory under his own terms, but nonetheless, it's still a sacrifice. And with the bad poor Billy... there is good Chief's liberation. Again, it's been seven years since I read the book, so I could have hosed up some of the details. Solitair posted:Anyway, the book sounds better and I should read it sometime. You really should, it's awesome.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:18
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the_homemaster posted:But...it's not funny. quote:"Aw, ain't that a shame." She filled two cups half full with thick cold coffee and poured the boiling milk in up to the rim. "Ignatius loves his doughnuts. He says to me, 'Momma, I love my doughnuts.'" Mrs. Reilly slurped a bit at the rim of her cup. "He's out in the parlor right now looking at TV. Every afternoon, as right as rain, he looks at that show where them kids dance." In the kitchen the music was somewhat fainter than it had been on the porch. Patrolman Mancuso pictured the green hunting cap bathed in the blue-white glow of the television screen. "He don't like the show at all, but he won't miss it. You oughta hear what he says about them poor kids."
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Jul 7, 2016 22:29
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the_homemaster posted:But...it's not funny. you are wrong sorry it happens to everyone well not to me but you know what I mean
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Jul 7, 2016 22:35
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Talk about the communiss.
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Jul 7, 2016 22:44
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