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Big Mean Jerk posted:http://io9.gizmodo.com/george-takei-tried-to-convince-the-team-behind-star-tre-1783306619 He seems to think this'll imply that his Sulu was closeted, which is what he's against, but the fact that both timeliness have Demora implies Takei's Sulu was just gay offscreen.
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Jul 8, 2016 02:24
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CharlieWhiskey posted:The outside delta stands for Starfleet, the peacekeeping armada of the United Federation of Planets. During TOS, the arrowhead was mostly only seen on the uniforms of Enterprise personnel. Other ships had their own insignias: the Constellation pretzel, the Exeter door-hinge, and perhaps most glorious of all, the Antares butt:   There were exceptions here and there -- for example, in Court Martial Kirk runs into a few guys at the Starbase that he hasn't seen since the academy, and they all have the arrowhead on. The real explanation is that the show runners either forgot about the whole assignment patch thing or just couldn't be bothered to come up with a couple of new ones. For whatever it might be worth, I have a pet theory on this: it wasn't a unique symbol for every ship, but rather there was a set of a dozen or so symbols (each presumably with some kind of history in the Federation) that the Captains could choose from for their command. Pike and Kirk both picked the arrowhead, as did the commander of whatever assignment those Academy buddies of Kirk's were on. No, I haven't the slightest evidence for this, it's just a thing I came up with many years ago. In any case, by the time the movies rolled around, all of Starfleet was using the arrowhead, and kept using it for at least the next century or so. (This is perhaps more plausible in my pet theory: no, Starfleet wasn't honoring JUST the Enterprise; the arrowhead symbol might have been a favorite for a long time.)
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Jul 8, 2016 02:37
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MikeJF posted:He seems to think this'll imply that his Sulu was closeted, which is what he's against, but the fact that both timeliness have Demora implies Takei's Sulu was just gay offscreen. As a queer person, my objection to it is that there isn't any thought to it beyond "uhhh, famous actor is gay, therefore". It's lazy.
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Jul 8, 2016 02:46
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The "arrowhead" insignia just evolved from the A in NASA logos iirc, so it would make sense as a generic Starfleet logo
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Jul 8, 2016 02:52
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Trent posted:The "arrowhead" insignia just evolved from the A in NASA logos iirc, so it would make sense as a generic Starfleet logo And then when StarFleet became less ambiguous and more faux-militaristic, they decided to standardize.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:05
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MikeJF posted:He seems to think this'll imply that his Sulu was closeted, which is what he's against, but the fact that both timeliness have Demora implies Takei's Sulu was just gay offscreen. George was really invested in that one comic book story where Sulu banged the catgirl Majel played on TAS.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:07
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MikeJF posted:He seems to think this'll imply that his Sulu was closeted, which is what he's against, but the fact that both timeliness have Demora implies Takei's Sulu was just gay offscreen.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:09
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Where in ST canon is Sulu implied or shown to be straight?
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Jul 8, 2016 03:12
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Apollodorus posted:Where in ST canon is Sulu implied or shown to be straight? When he prances around with his shirt off wielding a fencing sword and promising to save the neither fair nor maidenly Uhura. Though, we should have seen the truth pretty easily, his mirror universe characterization is straight. Also he's from San Francisco. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 03:18
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I think the biggest issue he has with it is this feels more like they are honoring him rather than representing the LGBT community earnestly while at the same time making the character Sulu more about him than the character. It can be interpreted as if they felt they couldn't include an openly gay character without this connection.
bull3964 fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 03:23
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Apollodorus posted:Where in ST canon is Sulu implied or shown to be straight? There's a line in Mudd's Women where Sulu and the navigator-of-the-week are coming on the bridge, the navigator says "You can feel their eyes when they're looking at you, like something grabbing hold of you. Do you notice that?" Sulu respnds with a leer, "I noticed. How I noticed." (There's also Mirror-Sulu taking an interest in Uhura, which I'm certain will be instantly dismissed as being just like Mirror-Kira being lesbian, or he's only doing it as a power play, or whatever) It's also pretty clear in TMP that Sulu has the hots for Ilia.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:26
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Timby posted:Dude loved having a cult of personality around himself. And he never liked to lose. I think it's in Inside Star Trek that Doohan tells a story about a weekly poker game held at Bill Campbell's house, and one night Roddenberry got in the hole to the tune of like three thousand bucks, and he kept on fighting to keep playing, until Campbell said something like, "Gene, shut the gently caress up, this is my house, and if I say we forgive the debt, then we forgive the debt." Pretty sure it was James Doohan who called an end to the game, although Campbell was there too.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:29
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Seriously, I think he's probably right that it should be a new character, but there is not enough room in these movies for the characters in them much less anyone new. The films have always been pretty bad about making the crew outside of the main three something of an afterthought and I doubt this one will be any different, so it barely matters if they make Sulu gay or not because it's not like he's going be in the movie for more than a minute or two.
remusclaw fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 03:30
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remusclaw posted:Seriously, I think he's probably right that it should be a new character, but there is not enough room in these movies for the characters in them much less anyone new. The films have always been pretty bad about making the crew outside of the main three something of an afterthought and I doubt this one will be any different, so it barely matters if they make Sulu gay or not because it's not like he's going be in the movie for more than a minute or two. imo it should have been anyone but Taki's character for my previously stated reason. One of the main three especially, but they already kind of blew that. (I mean, they could be bisexual, but that's always used to have characters be exotically queer while still sticking them in hetero relationships)
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Jul 8, 2016 03:33
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They should make Kirk bisexual, make the old slashers swoon. You are right though, The characterization of the main characters is pretty set now, and modern Kirk and Spock barely even seem to like each other, much less have any romantic chemistry. Sulu is so poorly characterized at this point it might as well be him. I don't even remember him doing anything in the second movie, my mind flashes back to skydiving and folded samurai swords when he comes up. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 03:34
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Jul 8, 2016 03:41
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They should make Kirk be gay.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:42
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Good thing they didn't pick Chekov, or there'd be accusations of Jeep Burying The Gays... 
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Jul 8, 2016 03:43
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remusclaw posted:Sulu is so poorly characterized at this point it might as well be him. That sentence perfectly encapsulates why many view it as a kind of cheap. Showing that a poorly realized character is straight doesn't add to the character in any appreciable way. If you are treating sexuality as something beyond a gimmick, the same can be said about showing a character as gay. As many said, he probably has screentime that can be counted on one hand regardless so there's really not much chance the character is going to be developed more anyways. I can just understand why Takei's kinda underwhelmed by the whole thing.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:50
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Showing that it isn't big deal in the future to be queer is a great sentiment and all but really isn't enough, because right now, it is a big deal.
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Jul 8, 2016 03:59
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bull3964 posted:That sentence perfectly encapsulates why many view it as a kind of cheap. He wasn't saying that, he was just saying that because he was so poorly characterised up to now there was nothing locking down his orientation. remusclaw posted:Showing that it isn't big deal in the future to be queer is a great sentiment and all but really isn't enough, because right now, it is a big deal. Ehhh, it's how Trek did (real) race, too. Show it's not a big deal, say no more about it. Of course, they also paired it with heavy-handed metaphor episodes, but this is a movie. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jul 8, 2016 |
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Jul 8, 2016 03:59
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True, but I would argue that worked as well as it did because Uhura was there week in week out on the bridge. A movie can't normalize things in the way a television show can.
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Jul 8, 2016 04:02
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MikeJF posted:Ehhh, it's how Trek did (real) race, too. Show it's not a big deal, say no more about it. Of course, they also paired it with heavy-handed metaphor episodes, but this is a movie. Yeah, but like I said earlier, it's only impressive when minorities being on screen at all is a notable thing. Gays are minor and/or killed characters all the time. We have higher standards, for good reason.
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Jul 8, 2016 04:05
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remusclaw posted:Showing that it isn't big deal in the future to be queer is a great sentiment and all but really isn't enough, because right now, it is a big deal. The token Asian is a token gay too! What more do you people want???
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Jul 8, 2016 04:05
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I want them to not give him a goddamn samurai sword. Honestly, what the gently caress. Do you think New Sulu was a gay character in the first two movies or do you think they saw the same thing I did earlier and said "Hey, there's nothing in those movies that say's he isn't!"
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Jul 8, 2016 04:09
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MikeJF posted:He wasn't saying that, he was just saying that because he was so poorly characterised up to now there was nothing locking down his orientation. I agree with that and I wasn't trying to put words in someone else's mouth, it's just that many will feel that way. At the end of the day, it just comes off as Sulu is gay because Takei is gay. I think the sentiment behind it is genuine, but it still feels like a (4th wall breaking) callback like so many others in the movies. It really isn't them striking out and making something new of the characters, now they're just co-opting elements of real life.
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Jul 8, 2016 04:12
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Well there's room for a brand new character in the 4th movie now. Honestly though, wouldn't it be kinda weird to have a new bridge character? "Here's the young versions of all your favorite TOS characters and their new friend Welshy! He was on the show too, just slightly off camera in the background of each shot!"
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Jul 8, 2016 05:18
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https://twitter.com/JohnTheCho/status/751254241885364226
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Jul 8, 2016 05:20
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It's odd, but Ray-Bans really fit that new uniform.
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Jul 8, 2016 05:21
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FilthyImp posted:You mean consonance??? https://i.imgur.com/KJOUZwU.mp4
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Jul 8, 2016 06:12
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Trent posted:The "arrowhead" insignia just evolved from the A in NASA logos iirc, so it would make sense as a generic Starfleet logo Its not an "A." The red thing in the logo is actually an airplane. Read this here book: http://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/emblems_of_exploration_detail.html Start on page 57. It tickles me that the Starfleet insignia evolves out of a drawing of a supersonic airfoil, not a spacecraft.
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Jul 8, 2016 06:34
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Well there's room for a brand new character in the 4th movie now. It's Lt Arex's time to shine now!
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Jul 8, 2016 12:24
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Bring back Yeoman Rand!
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Jul 8, 2016 14:05
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On a more serious note than my last post, I get where George is coming from, mostly (I'm honestly doubtful if Gene actually gave a poo poo about LGBT representation) but the two most obvious counterpoints are what's already been mentioned: Sulu's only passingly identified as into women in the original series, and most people are smart enough to understand the context of the time for that series; and introducing a new LGBT character is basically not possible in the context of the movies, at least not if you want them to have anywhere near the weight of the main bridge crew. The closest we got to a new 'main' character in any of the movies, JJ-verse or not, is Saavik and she lasted all of one movie before being made irrelevant. What would've happened, had Takei gotten his wish, would've been like that one apparently gay helmsman in First Contact, where either his scenes would be first on the cutting room floor because he's not one of the main characters, or he WOULD be reduced to "the gay one", which I'm not sure is the message you want in Star Trek. If he wants more original character LGBTQ representation in Trek, he should be talking to Fuller. Get a queer person on the bridge in the new show. gently caress it, have a transgender person as the captain.
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Jul 8, 2016 14:34
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Lt. Sassy is a Gaybaloid, a race that's entirely gay. *winks at camera*
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Jul 8, 2016 14:37
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Gaz-L posted:If he wants more original character LGBTQ representation in Trek, he should be talking to Fuller. Get a queer person on the bridge in the new show. gently caress it, have a transgender person as the captain. It's Fuller, the two things we can expect are gays and death.
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Jul 8, 2016 14:39
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Maybe Prime Sulu was closeted and JJ Sulu embraced his true sexuality. Given the gratuitous sexuality elsewhere in Trek, I personally don't give a gently caress about ~Gene's Vision~ when it comes to character sexuality. I don't think Sulu smooching a few cute boys will unravel the delicately woven tapestry of sex planet Risa, Riker trying to gently caress a hologram, and erogenous-eared Ferengi.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:00
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Does anyone know of a good quality YouTube video of that one scene in "Paradise Lost" with Brooks and Colm Meany? I can only find low quality YouTube videos.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:01
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wins.
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I guess you guys are right. On one hand, in TOS, the characters that weren't Kirk\Spock\Bones\Scotty didn't get a lot of characterization. I kinda felt like making Sulu gay would make him a little more unique. He well... didn't really have much of a personality. He had fantasies about swashbuckling and liked botany, I guess? I think because of this, I would often transplant the personality of George Takei into Sulu in my head. Because the real person that is George Takei is an interesting individual, whereas the fictional person that is Sulu kind of... isn't. Zoe Saldana Uhura is extremely different from Nichelle Nichols Uhura, but I was okay with this because well... Uhura was kind of a blank slate. She basically sat there and answered the phone. Star Trek XI gave her a personality. On the other hand, it's weird to make Sulu gay when someone other than George Takei is playing the character. Especially when George Takei himself doesn't really want that. You aren't really honoring George Takei with this if you're going against his wishes and he literally told you not to. Sure, the actors who played these characters down "own" them but acting like you're doing it for George when he said no feels kinda... wrong. But people are also absolutely right that adding a new cast member from out of nowhere into the TOS crew would also be pretty weird and bad. It's like a Poochy or Scrappy Doo kind of thing. You could always bring back Yeoman Rand and make her a lesbian. Talk about a character with zero personality. It would be hilarious to see a gay\bisexual Captain Kirk because if they did that, I bet Bill Shatner's head would explode. I'm okay with pissing Shatner off.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:02
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Gaz-L posted:On a more serious note than my last post, I get where George is coming from, mostly (I'm honestly doubtful if Gene actually gave a poo poo about LGBT representation) but the two most obvious counterpoints are what's already been mentioned: Sulu's only passingly identified as into women in the original series, and most people are smart enough to understand the context of the time for that series; and introducing a new LGBT character is basically not possible in the context of the movies, at least not if you want them to have anywhere near the weight of the main bridge crew. The closest we got to a new 'main' character in any of the movies, JJ-verse or not, is Saavik and she lasted all of one movie before being made irrelevant. What would've happened, had Takei gotten his wish, would've been like that one apparently gay helmsman in First Contact, where either his scenes would be first on the cutting room floor because he's not one of the main characters, or he WOULD be reduced to "the gay one", which I'm not sure is the message you want in Star Trek. This is what I was getting at too, and it's part of what I remember this book being about that we read in a sci-fi film class in college: https://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-History-Race-ing-toward/dp/0813524660 The gist being that Trek was always hailed as being progressive and forward-thinking for having representation of women, blacks, Asians, and other otherwise invisible groups front-and-center on the show (including Spock as a stand-in for nonspecific "other" groups that might not even have been identified yet). But that even with this being the case, the way it was handled was always with a Straight White Male as the captain, the paternalistic leader. Every other character that represented something was a sidekick or a secondary/tertiary fringe character; always the purest kind of tokenism that became such a joke by the 90s. Even the famous interracial kiss is only a halfhearted victory, since it's presented as a thing done under duress, a moment of shock and disgust for the viewers rather than elation or catharsis. There's even a whole chapter on Quark and how Armin Shimerman's portrayal of him, while he was trying his damnedest to bring depth and interest to a character under his control, semi-inadvertently just ended up creating the biggest ugly Jewish stereotype that's ever been on TV. And so any show—but especially Star Trek—making a character with all the centrality and plot significance of Sulu gay is exactly the kind of scraps-from-the-table move that supposedly had been thrown out as garbage when they stopped talking about "civil unions" being equivalent to marriage and how gays should just take what they were given and be glad.
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Jul 8, 2016 15:02
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