Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

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steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

At least the French have some spine and the courage to let the English speakers know what they think about them. Even if it's ultimately to their detriment.

# ? Jul 8, 2016 22:21

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# ? May 10, 2024 15:37

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Do the French get fussy that outside of official events no one ever uses anything other than NATO?
It would be great if every nato member pulled the same poo poo and the official nato logo ended up looking like a word jumble, but I guess no one else has such a linguistic chip on their shoulder other than the french.

At least the French in europe don't demand bilingual stop signs like they do in Canada.

# ? Jul 8, 2016 23:22

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

Douze pointe!

# ? Jul 8, 2016 23:31

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Just because someone speaks French doesn't mean they're a crybaby about their language not getting the respect it deserves.

Because the French are massive crybabies when it comes to language. Like, I'm pretty sure every single field, from politics to architecture to science has had some French dude crying about English superseding French in some organization, and probably leaving it or starting his own rival organization that respects the French language.

The one who is a crybaby about language here is the one who is going "boohoo why do languages other than English exist". NATO has two official languages, deal with it.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 00:27

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Cat Mattress posted:

The one who is a crybaby about language here is the one who is going "boohoo why do languages other than English exist". NATO has two official languages, deal with it.

NATO has one official language, and one faux-official language for babies.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 00:37

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

We really should've just kicked France out for good for their backstabbing ways. Two problems with one stone!

# ? Jul 9, 2016 01:14

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

mobby_6kl posted:

We really should've just kicked France out for good for their backstabbing ways. Two problems with one stone!

Feel free to start a petition on change.org.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 01:26

Mr.Shadow: Feb 17, 2011

Does anyone know what happened to the A.T.O in Ukraine youtube channel that was uploading videos from the Ukraine conflict? I went back to check on it recently and cannot find it at all.

Mr.Shadow fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 9, 2016

# ? Jul 9, 2016 03:29

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Will the Russian terrorism law change anything de facto?

# ? Jul 9, 2016 05:44

TURN IT OFF!: Dec 26, 2012

Arglebargle III posted:

Will the Russian terrorism law change anything de facto?

The new one? Well for one they'll be prosecuting 14-year-olds from now on.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 05:48

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Arglebargle III posted:

Will the Russian terrorism law change anything de facto?

I don't think so?

And honestly it doesn't seem to be worse than antiterrorism laws that have been enacted in the west...

# ? Jul 9, 2016 05:49

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Cat Mattress posted:

The one who is a crybaby about language here is the one who is going "boohoo why do languages other than English exist". NATO has two official languages, deal with it.

I'm perfectly fine with other languages than English existing, hell, one of them is my mother tongue. I just think it's ridiculous that the French want to waste everyone's time and money foisting their language on organizations like it's some sacred thing instead of just being pragmatic and using the lingua franca.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 08:28

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

Lichtenstein posted:

Douze pointe!

Douze points :colbert:

# ? Jul 9, 2016 08:59

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Cat Mattress posted:

And honestly it doesn't seem to be worse than antiterrorism laws that have been enacted in the west...

Well, Russia considers it extremist to say that the USSR allied with Germans to attack Poland, so I'm fairly sure some more creative interpretations of what constitutes terrorism are bound to follow.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 09:14

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Ultimately, I don't consider Russia to be a rule of law country, so it doesn't really matter what their laws say or not. Heck if they can legally put in jail anyone for flimsy reasons, then maybe they'll merely put them in jail instead of having the mob murder them (just ask journalists and political opponents), so ultimately regressive and repressive laws might be the more humane approach.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I'm perfectly fine with other languages than English existing, hell, one of them is my mother tongue. I just think it's ridiculous that the French want to waste everyone's time and money foisting their language on organizations like it's some sacred thing instead of just being pragmatic and using the lingua franca.

And I just think it's been like this since NATO was created in 1949 and whining about it now is what is really a waste of everyone's time.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 10:59

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Cat Mattress posted:

And I just think it's been like this since NATO was created in 1949 and whining about it now is what is really a waste of everyone's time.

The attitude persists. Also, what is or used to be is not an argument against what should be.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:06

BattleMaster: Aug 14, 2000

Has anyone pointed out how hilarious using this particular phrase is in this context?

A Buttery Pastry posted:

lingua franca.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:33

Kopijeger: Feb 14, 2010

BattleMaster posted:

Has anyone pointed out how hilarious using this particular phrase is in this context?

In Byzantine usage, "frank" was a generic term for anyone from Western Europe. Levantine Arabs and Ottoman Turks inherited the word. The orginal LF was actually an Italian-based pidgin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca

Kopijeger fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jul 9, 2016

# ? Jul 9, 2016 11:40

BattleMaster: Aug 14, 2000

Well yeah, and it has not even meant that for a long time, but I still think it's great to tell the French to give it up and use the lingua franca, especially since French itself used to be something of a standard language.

I'm Canadian and we have to deal with annoying French speakers though, so I'll take whatever catharsis I can get.

edit: especially since half of their words are almost identical but just in the opposite order

# ? Jul 9, 2016 12:03

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Lol French Canadians. I met a couple on holiday (not in Canada) and they were a walking stereotype, barely spoke English and the guy even had a front tooth missing from hockey, for gently caress's sake.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 13:50

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Anybody bring up this article by from The Nation, by Michael T. Klare?

The United States and NATO Are Preparing for a Major War With Russia - Massive military exercises and a troop buildup on NATO�s eastern flank reflect a dangerous new strategy.

Somehow manages to paint escalation in Eastern Europe as almost entirely up to NATO. What is funnier is the comments. Some of them take umbrage even with his milquetoast "Russian intervention in Crimea and eastern Ukraine is certainly provocative and repugnant...":

quote:

I expected better from The Nation. It is the U.S. that has caused increasing tensions with Russia. George H.W. Bush promised Gorbachov that NATO would not go farther east than East Germany. That promise has been broken repeatedly. The U.S. engineered a coup that put a new government in place in Ukraine. You left that part out of your article, Michael T. Klare, and I think you know better.

Russia has been invaded many times in its history; its fears are not unjustified.

Installing a worthless "missile defense" system in eastern Europe is another provocation. If it actually worked, it would give the U.S. the ability to make a first nuclear strike without fearing the destruction of America. It doesn't work, and it never will work, but the message is clear: we want the Russians to fear us. This is madness, and MAD still controls nuclear posturing.

The Soviet Union won World War II for the Allies, at the cost of more than 20 million lives. We shouldn't expect them to take provocations lightly.

So if we want peace, we had better be telling "our" government to back off

quote:

Great article. Just one problem. You describe the "Russian intervention in Crimea and eastern Ukraine" as "provocative and repugnant." I am not sure what you mean by that. Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine and re-join Russia. I'm not clear on what is so "provocative and repugnant" about Crimean self-determination. As for Russia's support for the rebels in eastern Ukraine, it could certainly be described as "provocative" but to call it "repugnant" without examining the context of the situation reeks of dishonesty and bias. The fact is there was a coup in Ukraine that installed a rabidly anti-Russian government that included neo-Nazi leaders and immediately attempted to restrict the rights of the ethnic Russian population in eastern Ukraine. Like anyone in this situation would, eastern Ukrainians decided to fight back, and Russia supported their efforts. You can use any adjective you want to describe Russia's support for eastern Ukrainian rebels, but at least provide some context so your readers can decide for themselves whether they think it is "repugnant" or not.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 13:50

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Russia Today talking points, uncritically accepted as gospel. Can't say I find this surprising, we've seen the same comments everywhere, sometimes even in this thread.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 14:01

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Arglebargle III posted:

Will the Russian terrorism law change anything de facto?

Since government forced data storage onto the carriers, speculations predict anywhere between double and quadruple phone service cost increase.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 14:13

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Cat Mattress posted:

And honestly it doesn't seem to be worse than antiterrorism laws that have been enacted in the west...

There's a number of things, in my opinion, that are off compared to the run of the mill anti-terrorism legalese in developed countries.

Mandatory snitching law with up to year in jail. (How are you enforcing this, again?)
Calling and apologising for terrorism on social networks now falls under mass media regulations, up to 7 years in jail. (7 years, really? Is critique of Russian actions of Syria an apologism of terrorism? Alternatively, what isn''t?)
6-month storage of contents of calls and messages made over any communication services. (Not meta-data, exact contents of messages transferred in any form.)
Missionaries must be officially registered and conduct their activities in specially designated buildings. (I like Jehowah's Witnesses about as much as the next normal person around the corner, but you could as well be shooting them on border if this is the regulation.)
Mass protest penalising law contains phrase "other involvement", penalised with jail time from 5 to 10 years. (Could just make at this point a law where people can just be jailed for prophylactic purposes.)
Criminal responsibility for 14-year olds on grounds of mandatory snitching law. ( "I swear to God, officer, Godzilla told me himself he plans to assassinate president Putin.")
Mail parcel content verification for lack of prohibited items and poo poo. (Appears alright at first, but mail carriers are the only responsible part here should anything happen.)

And yeah, on technical side of things 6-month call and message storage for users in Russia is something maybe Google can do, and not necessarily. They'd have to hire half the planet for half a decade to build infrastructure for this, and it would cost something like half of the profits in Russian budget for 2015. Government thinks it won't spend a dime here, but the phone carriers and messaging service providers will, and in the end both customers will suffer increased costs and the government will too - tax income off the profit margins will shrink. Either that, or Russian government has to find one more mountain of gold somewhere to do it. Decryption law (everyone must give FSB all their description keys; Putin publicly told FSB they have 2 weeks now to obtain all of them) is fairly silly too, and to some extent implies that no one responsible has even the slightest idea about encryption, it's forms and widespread. Even if we drop hilarious amount of technical problems with this law, it also violates right to have private conference, as defined in Russian constitution.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 14:36

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

kalstrams posted:

There's a number of things, in my opinion, that are off compared to the run of the mill anti-terrorism legalese in developed countries.

Mandatory snitching law with up to year in jail. (How are you enforcing this, again?)

Calling and apologising for terrorism on social networks now falls under mass media regulations, up to 7 years in jail. (7 years, really? Is critique of Russian actions of Syria an apologism of terrorism? Alternatively, what isn''t?)

6-month storage of contents of calls and messages made over any communication services. (Not meta-data, exact contents of messages transferred in any form.)

Missionaries must be officially registered and conduct their activities in specially designated buildings. (I like Jehowah's Witnesses about as much as the next normal person around the corner, but you could as well be shooting them on border if this is the regulation.)

Mass protest penalising law contains phrase "other involvement", penalised with jail time from 5 to 10 years. (Could just make at this point a law where people can just be jailed for prophylactic purposes.)

Criminal responsibility for 14-year olds on grounds of mandatory snitching law. ( "I swear to God, officer, Godzilla told me himself he plans to assassinate president Putin.")

Mail parcel content verification for lack of prohibited items and poo poo. (Appears alright at first, but mail carriers are the only responsible part here should anything happen.)

And yeah, on technical side of things 6-month call and message storage for users in Russia is something maybe Google can do, and not necessarily. They'd have to hire half the planet for half a decade to build infrastructure for this, and it would cost something like half of the profits in Russian budget for 2015. Government thinks it won't spend a dime here, but the phone carriers and messaging service providers will, and in the end both customers will suffer increased costs and the government will too - tax income off the profit margins will shrink. Either that, or Russian government has to find one more mountain of gold somewhere to do it. Decryption law (everyone must give FSB all their description keys; Putin publicly told FSB they have 2 weeks now to obtain all of them) is fairly silly too, and to some extent implies that no one responsible has even the slightest idea about encryption, it's forms and widespread. Even if we drop hilarious amount of technical problems with this law, it also violates right to have private conference, as defined in Russian constitution.

And keep in mind before this law was adopted it also contained revoking citizenship and deportation for violators. Those two parts were stricken before the Duma voted on it. In short, this is an unconstitutional law no one has the infrastructure to accommodate, the funds to pay for, and puts the burden of implementing it on the institutions it impacts, such as the postal service. And Vova wants the FSB to be ready in two weeks to enforce it.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 14:49

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

In short, this is an unconstitutional law no one has the infrastructure to accommodate, [or] the funds to pay for

In other words, a run of the mill anti-terrorism law.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 15:01

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Do folks have any thoughts on Sputnik? It seems to be a new generation of RT- with more thought and craft going into its propaganda.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 15:49

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Discendo Vox posted:

Do folks have any thoughts on Sputnik? It seems to be a new generation of RT- with more thought and craft going into its propaganda.

When it launched it was RT-esque garbage, and still is.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 16:30

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

kalstrams posted:

When it launched it was RT-esque garbage, and still is.

Yeah, RT and Sputnik are pretty much one and the same.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 16:40

Horns of Hattin: Dec 21, 2011

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

This is what happened in Russia today.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2016/06/24/russia-s-state-duma-just-approved-some-of-the-most-repressive-laws-in-post-soviet-history

https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/751019610258964480

Thanks for posting this, I wanted to do it, but kept putting it off. Since that article, everything's already been signed into law by Putin.

If anyone else didn't notice, Snowden's twitter post has a link to the Moscow Carnegie Center which has lots of informative analyses (translated into English!) if anyone is interested.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 17:04

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Discendo Vox posted:

Do folks have any thoughts on Sputnik? It seems to be a new generation of RT- with more thought and craft going into its propaganda.

They killed RIA Novosti for that. Novosti was of much better quality and relatively reliable, which is why it had to be killed.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 17:09

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

Skimming their headlines, I'd say Sputnik is like a more blatant RT. Both are pretty clearly Russia propaganda fronts, but RT has a better mix of headlines on their front page that don't immediately scream propaganda, like the viral section or a piece on water on Mars. Sputnik has a lot fewer of those and a lot more "Does Amerikkka want to declare war on China or Russia first?".

# ? Jul 9, 2016 17:21

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

DrProsek posted:

Skimming their headlines, I'd say Sputnik is like a more blatant RT. Both are pretty clearly Russia propaganda fronts, but RT has a better mix of headlines on their front page that don't immediately scream propaganda, like the viral section or a piece on water on Mars. Sputnik has a lot fewer of those and a lot more "Does Amerikkka want to declare war on China or Russia first?".

Sputnik hypothetically is meant to be something like Russian Al-Jazeera, but since it's being run more or less by the same people as Russia Today, it ends up being the "wake up to crimes of Amerikkka, sheeple side" of "Russia stornk" coin.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 17:34

Radio Prune: Feb 19, 2010

https://twitter.com/Sputnik_Not is a pretty good Sputnik parody account, for those who are into that sort of thing.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 17:41

Rincewinds: Jul 30, 2014; MEAT IS MEAT

kalstrams posted:

There's a number of things, in my opinion, that are off compared to the run of the mill anti-terrorism legalese in developed countries.

Mandatory snitching law with up to year in jail. (How are you enforcing this, again?)

Calling and apologising for terrorism on social networks now falls under mass media regulations, up to 7 years in jail. (7 years, really? Is critique of Russian actions of Syria an apologism of terrorism? Alternatively, what isn''t?)

6-month storage of contents of calls and messages made over any communication services. (Not meta-data, exact contents of messages transferred in any form.)

Missionaries must be officially registered and conduct their activities in specially designated buildings. (I like Jehowah's Witnesses about as much as the next normal person around the corner, but you could as well be shooting them on border if this is the regulation.)

Mass protest penalising law contains phrase "other involvement", penalised with jail time from 5 to 10 years. (Could just make at this point a law where people can just be jailed for prophylactic purposes.)

Criminal responsibility for 14-year olds on grounds of mandatory snitching law. ( "I swear to God, officer, Godzilla told me himself he plans to assassinate president Putin.")

Mail parcel content verification for lack of prohibited items and poo poo. (Appears alright at first, but mail carriers are the only responsible part here should anything happen.)

And yeah, on technical side of things 6-month call and message storage for users in Russia is something maybe Google can do, and not necessarily. They'd have to hire half the planet for half a decade to build infrastructure for this, and it would cost something like half of the profits in Russian budget for 2015. Government thinks it won't spend a dime here, but the phone carriers and messaging service providers will, and in the end both customers will suffer increased costs and the government will too - tax income off the profit margins will shrink. Either that, or Russian government has to find one more mountain of gold somewhere to do it. Decryption law (everyone must give FSB all their description keys; Putin publicly told FSB they have 2 weeks now to obtain all of them) is fairly silly too, and to some extent implies that no one responsible has even the slightest idea about encryption, it's forms and widespread. Even if we drop hilarious amount of technical problems with this law, it also violates right to have private conference, as defined in Russian constitution.

Combine it with the new national guard consisting of a few hundred thousand men, answerable to only Putin, he want the ability to ensure that any attempts to stage large scale protests won't happen again after the election this year. The protests in 2012 got attention but did not attract enough to worry Putin, but he wants to ensure that any attempt to repeat the Orange revolution is dead in the water.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 19:06

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Someone posted this under the same Facebook link to that The Nation article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PgSX-WD96Q

# ? Jul 9, 2016 20:20

Torquemadras: Jun 3, 2013

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Someone posted this under the same Facebook link to that The Nation article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PgSX-WD96Q

Should go without saying that you should not check out Youtube comments if you want to preserve your faith in humanity, but

"Someone should stop America's and Israel's JEWHAD"

Holy poo poo these people

# ? Jul 9, 2016 20:39

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

So my Russian in-laws who live in Ukraine want to move "back" to Russia because they feel like 2nd class citizens in Ukraine and don't have great job prospects. I have no idea why 2 retirement age people would want to move country for "job prospects" but it's all mostly emotional.

The problem is, I'm never going to Russia, ever. The idea of traveling there scares the poo poo out of me, specially since I spend a lot of my time poo poo-talking Russia, it's church, and its various disgusting policies on the internet. I'm also vocally involved with some organizations and causes that would be flat out illegal in Russia. No I don't think the KGB is going grab me at the airport and send me off to some gulag for people who talk poo poo about russia or spread gay propaganda on the internet but they don't seem too far off from that either. I also wouldn't want my wife visiting Russia either, she's a Canadian citizen now but technically she still has Russian citizenship too and getting rid of it officially is hard. Her plan was just "never go to Russia ever again because gently caress Russia". She's also quite outspokenly anti-russia and anti-putin.

We've tried to explain that if they move back to glorious russia they are never going to see me ever again, and seeing their daughter might be tough too. I'm certainly not sending over any grandkids either. They don't get it though, they see Russia as this nice stable motherland vs the war-torn nazi-sympathizing russian-hating Ukraine. They're shocked we'd rather visit them in Kiev than Russia or feel safer there.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 20:51

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Show them Medvedev's "There is no money but you hang in there!" video from Crimea.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 21:27

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# ? May 10, 2024 15:37

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Why don't they move to Canada instead? Or is that off the table due to all the homonazis you guys have?

I have some relatives in Russia too and they invited me over several times. They, though not actually Russian, were in complete denial and couldn't see why I would possibly have an issue with going there.

# ? Jul 9, 2016 21:42

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