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fishmech posted:Again, you need remedial economics classes, or possibly you need to just re-learn English because you are not using the actual definitions. Say this to every libertarian you meet, all of you
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Jul 7, 2016 16:58
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WampaLord posted:Yes, Jrod basically said that there would be no incentive to avoid getting sick if you had free healthcare, which is just pants on head retarded. I'd wonder why people would even have to go that far. If someone really wanted an excuse to get out of work, couldn't they just, you know, call in and tell their manager or whoever that they're sick? I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had a job that required I bring in a doctor's note the next day. In any case, there was some idiot congressman (or maybe some state lawmaker) who said he was against workman's comp because it provides people an incentive to get hurt. So ...yeah.
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Jul 9, 2016 06:10
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Plenty of employers are actually lovely enough to require a doctor's note or whatever The general feeling that I get is that businesses are transitioning toward a big "time off" bucket instead of allocating Sick and Vacation hours separately. That could be a mistaken feeling, but I think that it's a good place to transition toward.
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Jul 9, 2016 06:15
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QuarkJets posted:Plenty of employers are actually lovely enough to require a doctor's note or whatever Anecdotal evidence of one, but seems normal for boring big-company office/tech jobs in the Cleveland area: the company I work for has done since as long as I've been there (eight years). Because my life is amazingly boring and I don't really need all the "paid time off", I wish we could roll over more days to the next year if we wanted (we get 5) and maybe cash it out when we leave, but there's no way to complain about getting 35 days off a year. We can also call off whenever we want. Quite a few times people just send out e-mails at like 7am saying they're not coming in today, see ya Monday. An older guy I work with takes off every Friday from Memorial Day weekend until like early October.
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Jul 9, 2016 06:29
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My last two employers required doctor's notes if you were off for more than two days. Intellectually, gently caress you it's my time and I'm sick, show me studies to justify this poo poo. On the anecdotal hand, I've known a distressing number of people who will blab to anyone about calling in sick for bullshit reasons. But, anyway, no, show me studies, hypothetical sick time policy maker. I have a hunch this note poo poo does more to pressure poor/underinsured people to take too little time off when actually sick, which is probably bad for most work places, but is absolutely a real danger to lives in assisted living where I work. All the note policy will do for time-wasters is ensure they only skip out two days max, but they rarely pull that poo poo more than one day at a time anyway.
That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Jul 9, 2016 |
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Jul 9, 2016 06:50
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QuarkJets posted:Plenty of employers are actually lovely enough to require a doctor's note or whatever It's not really a good thing. Companies aren't doing this for flexibility; they've never given a poo poo about doing that for their employees. It's a way of subtly cutting benefits while telling workers its an improvement. If you used to have 7 days of vacation and 7 sick days per year, now you might only have 10 days off total.
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Jul 9, 2016 07:35
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Curvature of Earth posted:It's not really a good thing. Companies aren't doing this for flexibility; they've never given a poo poo about doing that for their employees. It's a way of subtly cutting benefits while telling workers its an improvement. If you used to have 7 days of vacation and 7 sick days per year, now you might only have 10 days off total. It's a good thing if you had 7 days of vacation and 7 days of sick and instead just have 14 days off that you can use however you want. Reducing the total number of days off is obviously bad but is also tangential to the discussion
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Jul 9, 2016 08:37
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QuarkJets posted:Plenty of employers are actually lovely enough to require a doctor's note or whatever Only lovely companies are doing that from what I hear. Apparently Walmart does that now and you get zero pto at the start. You have to accumulate it so if you get the flu on your second week then lol gently caress you dude. Limited sick time happens because there's always That Guy that gets the flu and has to be out two days every other week. Non-lovely companies will work with you if you do get very sick but other companies want turnover so they can replace an experienced well paid employee with somebody much cheaper. Again Walmart has been doing that for like a decade. Odd to think that when mr. Sam was still on charge they actually were apparently decent to work for. Amazing what bags of poo poo his children became. Especially when the recession hit. Hoooooo boy was that a poo poo show.
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Jul 9, 2016 15:55
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QuarkJets posted:It's a good thing if you had 7 days of vacation and 7 days of sick and instead just have 14 days off that you can use however you want. Reducing the total number of days off is obviously bad but is also tangential to the discussion lovely business practices and the oppression of the worker are never tangential on the libertarian thread 
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Jul 9, 2016 19:46
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Curvature of Earth posted:lovely business practices and the oppression of the worker are never tangential on the libertarian thread Transitioning from a total of 14 days off to a total of 14 days off that you can use more flexibly isn't lovely, though
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Jul 9, 2016 19:58
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^^^ How often does it happen like that? It's like those companies who have the perk of "unlimited" time off; aka you're so busy you're never allowed to take a day off, and oh yeah, since it's unlimited, you have accumulated days to cash out when you leave. ToxicSlurpee posted:Only lovely companies are doing that from what I hear. Apparently Walmart does that now and you get zero pto at the start. You have to accumulate it so if you get the flu on your second week then lol gently caress you dude. This is bad anywhere, but it's triply bad at a retailer. Customers don't want to get sick at your store.
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Jul 9, 2016 20:14
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ChipNDip posted:This is bad anywhere, but it's triply bad at a retailer. Customers don't want to get sick at your store. That's why it comes up in relation to retail and food service, actually. This is especially true when you talk about those workers being totally unable to afford to take a day off. The restaurant I worked at theoretically had unlimited unpaid sick time but people showed up to work ill all the damned time. Reason being that would sometimes be the difference between paying rent on time and not paying rent on time. Some folks there went to work on days they could barely stand up because well, what the gently caress were they going to do? Not feed their children? Some places also set it up so that if you call off sick more than X days in a particular roll time period you get fired. Somebody I used to work with actually ended up getting fired from Walmart recently because her aging mother wasn't doing so well and she got sick a few times as well. She was also experienced and making more than a teenager working part time so obviously it's a good excuse to run around firing people. Rather than being non-lovely and saying "hey we'll work with you, take care of yourself and your own" they just went "lol gently caress you, hope you have fun having no job during a difficult time of your life." It's extremely relevant to lolbertarians because they're against laws that would actually help in those situations. Getting the flu can lead to a poor person losing their job, becoming homeless, and having a ruined life. Because they got sick. Once. This is, of course, also a case where Obamacare turned out to be a good thing. If you got sick enough that'd you'd end up being out for too long you'd have to get a doctor's note to come back to work buuuuuuuuuut if you have no insurance guess what you can't afford? A loving doctor. So you either have to show up while sick or write your job off. And yet lolbertarians long for a world where the expectation is that you'll show up to work anyway unless you were fortunate enough to convince your boss to give you sick time.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:03
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As a person who never gets sick I love having it all combined. I can't speak for how transitions happen and if time is lost there but I suspect the big win for companies going that way is fewer people will call in sick last second to use time off for vacation. Also in the scenario of 7 sick days and 7 vacation days getting combined into 10 pto days I would still benefit. Personally I gravitate towards places that use a pto system where it's combined and where they give it out generously.
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Jul 10, 2016 00:12
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I actually complained to the manager at a major supermarket after encountering an extremely sick guy stocking produce and complaining to his coworker how sick he was but "had" to come in. The manager agreed and said its corporate that sets the regressive sick day policies that demand doctor's notes and poo poo, that they used to have a way better policy around it until they were bought by a bigger corporate chain who forced their awful policies on the local stores that previously had no issues with people "abusing" sick days 
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Jul 10, 2016 01:20
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But if we make it so that people can't afford to be sick then they'll just choose not to be sick, and if their time preference is such that they choose to get sick anyway then that's their problem. Seems like we should just let the free market sort out this situation
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Jul 10, 2016 01:36
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QuarkJets posted:But if we make it so that people can't afford to be sick then they'll just choose not to be sick, and if their time preference is such that they choose to get sick anyway then that's their problem. Seems like we should just let the free market sort out this situation Humans act(choooo)
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Jul 10, 2016 02:10
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I lost a job about a year ago for getting sick a few times during a really cold winter (the first winter I'd experienced in 4 years or so). I worked at a SCHOOL. A school for DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED STUDENTS. Let that sink in for a moment. I was let go because I didn't come to work sick where I almost assuredly would have infected young children who are doubly vulnerable, being developmentally disabled.
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Jul 10, 2016 02:31
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Curvature of Earth posted:How Government Ruins 4th of July Travel There's actually some legitimate complaints there that are similar to many urbanists'. Induced demand and the fact that they economically destroyed a lot of cities through subsidized suburbanization. Of all the government has done in the roads business, the interstate system, especially urban routes, is the most controversial with many criticisms from the right and left (and rightly so). Eskaton fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jul 10, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 02:45
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Play posted:I lost a job about a year ago for getting sick a few times during a really cold winter (the first winter I'd experienced in 4 years or so). I worked at a SCHOOL. A school for DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED STUDENTS. I've noticed a ton of horrible randian managers and company owners who make these policies are also the type of people who "never get sick". I think being evil gives you really good health or something. Being sick is a choice, and even if it's not is a sign of weakness and you clearly could have avoided it with more rational choices.
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Jul 10, 2016 02:47
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Play posted:I lost a job about a year ago for getting sick a few times during a really cold winter (the first winter I'd experienced in 4 years or so). I worked at a SCHOOL. A school for DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED STUDENTS.
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Jul 10, 2016 02:50
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Does it cost money to go see a doctor in the US just to get a sick note? Given how lovely health care seems in the US, I'm guessing it does. In Australia you'll need a doctor's note to claim your sick leave, but visiting a bulk billing clinic is free and you can usually be in and out in less than half an hour. Also, most doctors do not give a poo poo about handing out sick notes, you can just say you feel like poo poo, they'll ask if you want a note, you say yes and they print one off right then. No mess, no fuss.
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Jul 10, 2016 06:28
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Leaving your house and going to a doctor is absolutely useless and bad for everyone. There's no test for being sick, there's nothing going to a doctor can do. If you're too sick for work you're probably too sick to drag your rear end to some stupid clinic. Anyone demanding doctor's notes for sick days should be thrown in prison, immediately, no trial.
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Jul 10, 2016 06:35
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Fansy fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Apr 12, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2016 07:00
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Gorilla Salad posted:Does it cost money to go see a doctor in the US just to get a sick note? Given how lovely health care seems in the US, I'm guessing it does. See, that was the other major problem; your doctor was probably not only going to demand money but might not even be able to see you for a month. Then when you finally could see a doctor you were 99% guaranteed that your appointment wouldn't happen on time. "Urgent care" places that you can just walk into have been increasingly prevalent to deal with that sort of thing but even then if you don't have insurance how the hell do you afford it? It gets even more problematic when you see that some insurance won't pay for "out of network" services or will cover them poorly at best. Sometimes it just plain might not be possible to even get to a doctor at all. Even if you do the doctor will probably be unhappy that you bothered them with something that their advice is going to be "drink fluids, sleep a lot, don't go to work." Some doctors will also refuse to give you a note if you're well enough to haul your carcass in in the first place. The best option is really just to go to work anyway. Obamacare did a lot of good but there's still a long way to go.
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Jul 10, 2016 07:28
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Fansy posted:At least a hundred to walk in the door, several hundred after tests. While the ACA helped, healthcare plans are still a shitshow. All the new regulations and subsidies might mean you can technically afford a perfectly fine plan, but your minuscule paycheck is now even smaller, and even a $30 copay can wreck your week. Though, really, if you're in that situation you've probably got a plan that saddles you with higher copays than that.
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Jul 10, 2016 08:58
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Baronjutter posted:Leaving your house and going to a doctor is absolutely useless and bad for everyone. There's no test for being sick, there's nothing going to a doctor can do. If you're too sick for work you're probably too sick to drag your rear end to some stupid clinic. Is this a joke?
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Jul 10, 2016 14:23
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Goddamn America, every time I hear anything about your health care system it gets worse. The longest I've waited so see a medical professional in my life was a couple of weeks, but that was to see an eye specialist after an accident. For a GP visit, I think it was maybe two hours - but that was on a public holiday with only a couple of doctors in attendance. Lucky you guys aren't all loving socialists, hey? EDIT - okay, that was dickish. In all honesty, the thought of living somewhere with a health care system like the US is horrifying to me. Being sick or injured is bad enough, but having some small complaint end up destroying your life because of lack of medical care or living in a state where they can just fire you for no reason is the stuff of nightmares. fishmech posted:Is this a joke? Although I get what Baronjutter's trying to say, yeah "no test for being sick" is some prime stupid phrasing. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jul 10, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 15:05
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There's also the "nothing a doctor can do" part which is obvious crap, and the "if you're too sick to work you're definitely too sick to go to a doctor" which is really really crap. Because the biggest reason you shouldn't show up for work is in case you're contagious, in order to avoid getting other people sick. But merely having something contagious doesn't mean you can't go to a doctor! And people loving end up dead or crippled because they assumed something they were sick with was no big deal, and then woops, turns out it was! I mean sure, tons of people are still screwed on insurance et al so they can't afford to go to the doctor when they should, but that doesn't mean "there's no point in going to a doctor" is true at all. Things should be fixed so they can go to the doctor! fishmech fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jul 10, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 15:50
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fishmech posted:Is this a joke? I assume so.
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Jul 10, 2016 15:54
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Eskaton posted:There's actually some legitimate complaints there that are similar to many urbanists'. Induced demand and the fact that they economically destroyed a lot of cities through subsidized suburbanization. Of all the government has done in the roads business, the interstate system, especially urban routes, is the most controversial with many criticisms from the right and left (and rightly so). Of course there are valid (or valid-ish) criticisms of transportation policy in this country. The libertarian position though is some unhinged rant about how THE FREE MARKET should have decided where to build highways rather then GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS MOVING TANKS because the system of stopping every mile to pay a coin to whoever had the land and capital to put down some asphalt was working just fine, thank you.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:04
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Eskaton posted:There's actually some legitimate complaints there that are similar to many urbanists'. Induced demand and the fact that they economically destroyed a lot of cities through subsidized suburbanization. Of all the government has done in the roads business, the interstate system, especially urban routes, is the most controversial with many criticisms from the right and left (and rightly so). Suburbanization started well before the interstates were even close to complete, by 1960 for instance, only 10,000 miles of the original ~43,000 miles of interstates were completed, and most of that was composed of adopting-in already completed roads from the past, and stretches out in rural areas which cost significantly less to get built. You have to remember that the shrinking of cities was primarily a result of their population being artificially swollen by the forces of the great depression and then World War II employment driving in masses of people straight from rural areas into the city, because they had no other choice. Once they could afford to leave the cities, they immediately left, but had no reason to go all the way back to the rural areas they or their parents had come from. Hence, why we see suburbanization pick up in a big way. Further, we see severe suburbanization in other countries that had nowhere near the amount of freeway construction in the same time period as the US did - like the UK for instance, or Australia. And that's because having the freeways really isn't any sort of need for them.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:14
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A lot of surburbanization also happened due to white flight. White professionals that could afford the commute ran from the densely packed cities full of apartments and mixed-use buildings and those people to live in their perfectly manicured little surburan paradises full of manufactured homes. Manufactured housing was also a big contributor; not only was the road system, cars in general, and whatever just plain better but it became just plain cheaper to buy a house in the suburbs thanks to economies of scale. In the 60's and 70's urban areas were often scenes of massive unrest. Gay clubs were getting raided by police who were literally murdering people and blacks were becoming unruly because they had every goddamned right to be angry. This was the civil rights era as well; a bunch of white people were running off into suburban neighborhoods to create home owner's associations to create respectable towns there were full of respectable people. You couldn't do that easily in the city if you lived in apartments or rowhouses that you rented and couldn't control. You could do that easily in new suburban developments. I think that's a major thing that people often forget in these discussions; the suburbs as we know them partly happened because of upper middle class white people wanting to create their own little bubbles.
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Jul 10, 2016 18:05
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fishmech posted:There's also the "nothing a doctor can do" part which is obvious crap, and the "if you're too sick to work you're definitely too sick to go to a doctor" which is really really crap. Because the biggest reason you shouldn't show up for work is in case you're contagious, in order to avoid getting other people sick. But merely having something contagious doesn't mean you can't go to a doctor! And people loving end up dead or crippled because they assumed something they were sick with was no big deal, and then woops, turns out it was! This is loving stupid, just FYI. Earlier this month I had a wicked bad cold. It was a cold, but the type that you wake up and go "I'm not going into work with this because it hurts like hell and I can barely speak." My day job is sensible and told me to take a few days off and come back when I was healthy. My girlfriend (who caught the cold from me) also had to take a few days off but her work insisted she get a doctors note. So they required a sick woman to leave the house, dive across town, wait an hour to see a doctor to tell her whst everyone already knew, she had a cold and she should get bed rest while drinking fluids and taking cold medication. Duh. This wasted time for both her and the doctor, and put everyone in the waiting room at risk for catching her very contagious cold.
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Jul 10, 2016 19:39
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Caros posted:This is loving stupid, just FYI. But then the doctor could have charged her money which boosts the economy 
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Jul 10, 2016 19:51
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:But then the doctor could have charged her money which boosts the economy Hahn, gently caress no. I'm in Canada.
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Jul 10, 2016 19:52
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Caros posted:Hahn, gently caress no. I'm in Canada. commie
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Jul 10, 2016 19:53
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Gorilla Salad posted:EDIT - okay, that was dickish. In all honesty, the thought of living somewhere with a health care system like the US is horrifying to me. Being sick or injured is bad enough, but having some small complaint end up destroying your life because of lack of medical care or living in a state where they can just fire you for no reason is the stuff of nightmares. Like someone else pointed out, it's fine (sometimes even good) if you have good health insurance. It's a system that caters to wealth, which is why our conservatives are so loving pissy about any changes to it.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:09
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fishmech posted:Suburbanization started well before the interstates were even close to complete, by 1960 for instance, only 10,000 miles of the original ~43,000 miles of interstates were completed, and most of that was composed of adopting-in already completed roads from the past, and stretches out in rural areas which cost significantly less to get built. The first large-scale highway projects actually started in the 1930s, when the Works Progress Administration built several hundred thousand miles of roads, a massive giveaway to cars that public transit received no equivalent of. Furthermore, early-era surburbia was much different from post-1960s suburbia. Lots were much smaller, typically around 1/8th of an acre, and mixed-use still prevailed, with light commercial like corner stores still relatively common. Assuming a healthy ratio of land use (50% public spaces/infrastructure), early suburbia had a practical population density of between 5,000 and 7,500 people per square mile (depending on whether the 50% of space occupied by actual buildings was either all residential or only mostly). So, basically, old-school suburbia looks like Portland, which to the city's detriment, is mostly zoned for older small-lot suburbia. Or put another way, old suburbia is between two and three times as dense as my hometown, where the majority of residential zoning has a minimum lot size of a fifth of an acre.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:10
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QuarkJets posted:Like someone else pointed out, it's fine (sometimes even good) if you have good health insurance. It's a system that caters to wealth, which is why our conservatives are so loving pissy about any changes to it. This does not mean it is a good system by any metric though.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:19
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Twerkteam Pizza posted:This does not mean it is a good system by any metric though. It's good if you're wealthy, and it's good if you feel like the poors are lazy and deserve lovely treatment. Keeping that in mind helps to explain US conservative outrage over all proposed changes to the healthcare system and why they so desperately want to go back to the pre-Obamacare days.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:28
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