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And the company that makes their cartridges forecast a huge increase in sales at the same time the NX is releasing. The thing is disc prices and storage space has stagnated while cart space has risen and cart price keeps fallin. The extra cost can at least be partially made up with in large logistics savings(smaller packages, less weight, more units per shipping container), no disc format licensing costs, cheaper console that's more reliable(less returns/warranty cost) with no moving parts(also smaller and thus cheaper logistically)
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Jul 10, 2016 16:35
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greatn posted:And the company that makes their cartridges forecast a huge increase in sales at the same time the NX is releasing. Is there a good write up some where on how cart technology has improved over the years? I guess it could include some flexibility by including extra chips for specific games like the FX chip.
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Jul 10, 2016 16:46
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Modern carts aren't going to have a specialty chip. Think 3ds cart, just with a bigger capacity.
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Jul 10, 2016 16:52
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If the NX lacks an optical drive, then that means there isn't going to be backward compatibility with the Wii U. Which I think is a shame, especially because Nintendo was so good about BC these past few gens, but oh well.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:15
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Dr Cheeto posted:The budget of the game almost always ends up being reflected in the price tag, so really you're just inventing a new way to do the same thing. Chrono Trigger cost 80 dollars when I first got it, but FF3/6 was a cool 70. DKC1-3 were all like 50-60 bucks, and the Mega Man X games on the SNES all came in around 50 apiece if memory serves. I remember paying 70 bucks for a copy of Metal Warriors in Florida waaaaaay back in the day. Game prices used to vary a lot more wildly in the "good old days", and there were very rarely any "special editions" of games compared to now, where practically every major AAA game coming out has a special DAY -1 EDITION or some poo poo that further boosts the price. Of course, you don't need to buy a special edition of a game. On those standard editions, on average, the majority start at 60 USD on console and go down from there, and that's more because this is the price the market has more or less 'settled' on. The budget of a game's production means less to the final price of the game itself than you might think, at least as far as most major publishers/devs are concerned. If nothing else, budgets for videogames have only gone up since the days of the 80 dollar SNES cart. 60 USD is more or less what has become the 'standard', expected price of new games. Anything higher than that usually means it comes with something extra. It's not like the budget for, say, Street Fighter V or Guilty Gear XRD compares whatsoever to the budget of an Assassin's Creed or GTAV, but they all launched at 60 bucks anyway. Odin Sphere was priced 60 bucks on the PS4, 40 on Vita, and 50 on PS2 for its original release (iirc, and despite it being essentially in development hell so deep that it basically required George Kamitani to take out a 20 million yen loan to keep Vanillaware afloat before the game was even finished), so even the platform a game is being released on has more influence on the price than the budget for the game does. With indies it's significantly variable.They trend lower because they have lower budgets across the board, but they also tend to be less... complex as games go, though that's not a particularly good term to use for them admittedly. I'm not saying indies suck or anything when I say it, to head that off now. At the end of the day the actual 'acceptable' price for any game is the amount you are willing to spend on it at the time you decide to make the purchase, regardless of how dramatic you are when you complain about prices in a forums post later down the line. Some people are intensely militant about what that exact dollar/yen/zeni amount actually is, but it's different for every person. TLDR Price chat is still pretty loving stupid, but not necessarily or entirely for the reasons Ventana or Meldonox claim. greatn posted:And the company that makes their cartridges forecast a huge increase in sales at the same time the NX is releasing. I'm legitimately interested to see if the NX cartridge rumors pan out. I don't think they will completely eliminate load times, because even PC games running on SSDs or RAID set ups have loading times between levels or during start up and such, but they can potentially make them very very short on the NX. I'm certain Nintendo will find a way to make the use of large storage capacity carts that are ridiculously fast. On the other hand, the new Zelda looks fantastic and utterly massive on a disc-based system as is, and there are plenty of amazing looking games with massive levels or insane graphical details on PC and PS4/Xbox One as is. The issue of storage space is somewhat solved by there being installs on the PS4 and XB1, and in both cases you have ways to expand your storage memory significantly. They aren't perfect solutions, but they seem to be 'good enough' for the average user. I don't necessarily see cartridges making a huge return across the console medium as a whole, but I think it does also depend a LOT on how well a cartidge-using NX does.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:19
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BexGu posted:Is there a good write up some where on how cart technology has improved over the years? Flash cards are rapidly getting cheaper to produce and have bigger capacities. That's it, basically. It would just be a way to distribute the game data; there wouldn't be extra chips. I doubt there's even room in a 3DS size (for example) cart for expansion chips.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:20
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MechaCrash posted:If the NX lacks an optical drive, then that means there isn't going to be backward compatibility with the Wii U. Which I think is a shame, especially because Nintendo was so good about BC these past few gens, but oh well. Even if the NX ends up having an optical drive I honestly doubt it'll be backwards compatible, as good as the Wii U is there's really not much benefit to backwards compatibility compared to the cost of it, specially when there's only a handful of titles on hot demand for the console and it seems like they're porting them over.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:31
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Yeah, "cartridge" is rather misleading. They'd be glorified flashcards like the 3DS uses. As for improvements in storage, just last week Samsung announced these babies:  A Blu-Ray can hold 50 GB.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:33
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Patter Song posted:Yeah, "cartridge" is rather misleading. They'd be glorified flashcards like the 3DS uses. and how many of those are cheaper to produce than blu ray disks?
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Jul 10, 2016 17:36
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MechaCrash posted:If the NX lacks an optical drive, then that means there isn't going to be backward compatibility with the Wii U. Which I think is a shame, especially because Nintendo was so good about BC these past few gens, but oh well. they'll either make the hits BC for digital or port them over. you will see a lot of Wii u games ported if nx takes off because very few people played them and nintendo will be desperate for software on nx
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Jul 10, 2016 17:37
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Backwards Compatibility is something a lot of people clamor for, but it ultimately matters most when your console has nothing of value to play on it. See: The Xbox One, the PS3 post launch. So maybe Nintendo should have considered it seriously because if third parties abandon them again, they're gonna see a repeat of the Wii U where we wait out droughts in between major Nintendo releases. I'm honestly not excited for BC on the NX, because if Nintendo's eShop practices are anything to go by, we'll likely have to pay full price for games we already own digitally on the Wii U. Besides, my Wii U isn't going anywhere as is.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:40
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Disks are dirt cheap to manufacture while flash memory can be rather pricey. Then again if you expressly set out to make an SD card that will only be written to a single time maybe it will be cheaper?
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Jul 10, 2016 17:41
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fivegears4reverse posted:I'm honestly not excited for BC on the NX, because if Nintendo's eShop practices are anything to go by, we'll likely have to pay full price for games we already own digitally on the Wii U. You could move all your downloadable games from Wii to Wii U in a free system transfer. Neither the 360-XB1 nor the PS3-PS4 allowed you to do this.
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Jul 10, 2016 17:43
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Patter Song posted:You could move all your downloadable games from Wii to Wii U in a free system transfer. Neither the 360-XB1 nor the PS3-PS4 allowed you to do this. Xbox One backwards compatibility is actually really good. When games are moved over (which is up to publishers, MS does the work), they automatically populate in your Games folder and you just download them, no transferring necessary. Or throw the disc in and download the game if you own the hard copy, then use the disc for authentication. It'd be cool if I could just boot up my NX and download games from their servers I've already bought. I didn't gently caress with the Wii stuff, but transferring poo poo from a 3DS to a newer 3DS was annoying, and especially bewildering when they used to have a 5 transfer limit, though that's gone at least.
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Jul 10, 2016 18:00
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Patter Song posted:You could move all your downloadable games from Wii to Wii U in a free system transfer. Neither the 360-XB1 nor the PS3-PS4 allowed you to do this. I can download a bunch of PS1 titles on my PS3 and get a lot of them also on my PSP and Vita. It's a shame I can't do the same on my PS4, but I think it says something positive about the system that it's sold as well as it has even after pretty much dropping backwards compatibility like a bad habit. Meanwhile, I would have to buy Super Metroid, Pilotwings, F-Zero, Link to the Past, Mario Kart, DKC1-3, and Contra 3 separately for the 3DS despite already owning them on the Wii U. The PS3, Vita, and PSP share an absurd amount of games across all three systems compared to what Nintendo has ever offered digitally, and there are still cross-buy games being offered by Sony to a degree Nintendo hasn't even bothered to attempt. Don't be jivjov about this. The transfer from the Wii to Wii U is really nice, but I am not expecting the same thing for digital games that cost a lot more than pretty much any single thing that was ever offered on the Wii's Virtual Console. If it happens, that'd be cool though. fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 18:03
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Commercial blu-ray replication costs (labeled disc, keep case and cover insert) roughly $2-$3 for a single layer BD25 disc. A DVD9 disc would be about $.70 per disc. NAND flash has dropped in price a LOT because of the rise of smartphones and the increased use of SD cards for everything. We're not quite there yet, but at some point in the near future, the price difference between 32 GB of flash memory and a 25GB Blu Ray disc will end up being a complete wash.
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Jul 10, 2016 18:03
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fivegears4reverse posted:Backwards Compatibility is something a lot of people clamor for, but it ultimately matters most when your console has nothing of value to play on it. See: The Xbox One, the PS3 post launch. So maybe Nintendo should have considered it seriously because if third parties abandon them again, they're gonna see a repeat of the Wii U where we wait out droughts in between major Nintendo releases. Games you owned digitally on the Wii transferred free to the U though(except one for some reason, maybe cause it was the first WiiWare title and they never had gotten the licensing worked out yet? And you had to use Wii mode of course) and all the DSi digital games transferred freely to the 3DS. And when they did start releasing retail Wii games on WiiU, they were $20. Obviously we're not going to get best case scenario(your entire 3ds and WiiU library playable and available for download at no cost day one), but I highly doubt you'll have to rebuy everything at full price.
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Jul 10, 2016 18:14
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:and how many of those are cheaper to produce than blu ray disks? Those are rewritable media. ROM tends to be quite a bit cheaper. I'm having a hard time finding any hard numbers but 3DS cartridges assuredly cost well under $5, and I have no reason to believe that it would cost any more than that for a cart that could hold the current Wii U maximum capacity of 25 GB while also giving options to make even bigger ones if a developer/publisher were so inclined. Going back to cartridges really isn't a terrible idea considering how finnicky and expensive an optical reader is versus its performance (and the licencing cost of something like Blu-Ray) and how cheap it is to make ROM chips on par with optical discs now, not to mention that Nintendo assuredly is a fan of anything that adds any barriers to piracy. Boten Anna fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jul 10, 2016 |
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Jul 10, 2016 18:51
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Guy Mann posted:Price doesn't matter if you're a NEET who either pirates everything or has their parents to buy everything for them. Not really? I mean, maybe if you're talking about people who buy every game under the sun or get every console or something. But you can be responsible and buy the occasional game without breaking the bank. fivegears4reverse posted:
I actually think our points align I think, cause I agree with the stuff you listed out with varying prices over the years. And in recent years as well, prices still can vary when you factor in DLC, different pricing models from FTP or kickstarters, or the large can of worms that comes from factoring in the varying prices of Used/Old games especially when it comes to sales. The point I wanted to make is that prices in games can be extremely variable based on a lot of environmental circumstances, not really tied to the content within the game itself or it's quality. "Quality" here is kind of a messy thing to define, but I dunno if anyone here really wants to argue about that point. And I wasn't saying that judging based on a game's budget wasn't without it's own fault, but I always found that getting people to think about it had more of a chance to at least be more introspective of the whole situation at the very least, rather than getting to the silly "How can a 7 hour single player experience cost $50?" argument.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:04
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Yeah I don't buy many games but I have a large backlog due to little free time, and the combination of being thrifty, having a decent job and no kids means it doesn't really matter how much a game costs if I want it. You obviously don't have to ignore the price but whether it's worth my time is way more important to me than how much it costs.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:16
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The other thing about a cart is you can buy 8GB of flash memory if your game is only 8GB. Most games don't fill an entire bluRay disc. So a small game can be distributed cheaper. Look at the download sizes for games on PS4/Steam/XBONE. SSDs and phones are going to keep driving the price down the capacity up. The real question is where will saves live? small dedicated rewrite able (more expensive) 1GB in the cart, or on an SSD on the console. Games near the end of the life of the console could also opt for faster more expensive storage and have faster load times. It might be jumping the gun and early gen will cost more, but it's a pretty safe gamble that it will pay off near mid / end of life of the console.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:23
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I imagine they'd handle saves like they do with the 3DS, you save to a cart and can move it to the console to use with a digital version.
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Jul 10, 2016 20:44
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Neurolimal posted:Idk why people have a bug up their rear end about gone home I thought people liked Uninvited??? is this like brutal legend and sacrifice Univited had actual tricky puzzles and lose conditions. Gone Home is one of those experimental 3D filesystem browsers where they buried some audio clips. If anything the weird thing is that people are groaning about Ubisoft collect-a-thons, which have good gameplay and well written or narrated "secrets", while applauding to badly written 90's nostalgia interactive exhibit that was promoted wildly by polygon just because the reviewer used to be the programmer's flatmate.
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Jul 11, 2016 06:24
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limaCAT posted:Univited had actual tricky puzzles and lose conditions. Gone Home is one of those experimental 3D filesystem browsers where they buried some audio clips. Sorry you couldn't empathize with some characters without the implied risk of your own virtual death, I guess. I hope the NX hybrid console/portable rumor is true, because being able to play Monster Hunter when I'm on business trips or otherwise not at home is the poo poo, and all the haters who think it "belongs on the playstation" can fuckin eat me. Playstation already has like... every other game in that genre, instead.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:00
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limaCAT posted:filesystem browsers where they buried some audio clips. Hmm, that gives me an idea for a game. DO NOT STEAL!!
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Jul 11, 2016 14:04
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Working title "Spooky Explorer"
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Jul 11, 2016 14:33
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MechaCrash posted:If the NX lacks an optical drive, then that means there isn't going to be backward compatibility with the Wii U. Which I think is a shame, especially because Nintendo was so good about BC these past few gens, but oh well. If this generation of consoles has taught us anything, it's that backwards compatibility is pointless when people are more than willing to buy "Remastered" ports of last generation games that they've already played through with no problem whatsoever, even if it's only been like a year or two since it was originally released.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:37
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If they're trying to kick PowerPC to the curb, it would be difficult to do backwards compatibility without some kind of dedicated component AFAIK.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:47
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Dr Cheeto posted:If they're trying to kick PowerPC to the curb, it would be difficult to do backwards compatibility without some kind of dedicated component AFAIK. Microsoft has managed. Sort of.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:03
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ddogflex posted:Microsoft has managed. Sort of. They used a dedicated little board specifically for this IIRC.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:05
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After seeing the insane success of Pokemon Go nintendo will probably just cancel the NX and create only mobile games imo. edit - seriously though I loves me some Pokemon but there seems like nothing to do in Go really, outside of just catching monsters.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:18
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ColonelJohnMatrix posted:After seeing the insane success of Pokemon Go nintendo will probably just cancel the NX and create only mobile games imo. The NX is a phone.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:23
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Disks are dirt cheap to manufacture while flash memory can be rather pricey. Then again if you expressly set out to make an SD card that will only be written to a single time maybe it will be cheaper? I think the really compelling use of cartridges is using them to completely replace the way consoles these days use internal storage: always updatable, with plenty of space to save games on it. The advantage of cartridges over installing games is that you insert the cartridge and and it starts up instantly, no need to wait for it to download or for an installation sequence.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:49
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It stands for New Xylophone and heck, that's just what it is.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:54
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A brand new xylophone you unwrap beneath the Christmas tree, thanks Nintendo, thanks Santa Claus.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:55
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FactsAreUseless posted:It stands for New Xylophone and heck, that's just what it is. I'd be pretty pissed off if they don't release a Korg, a SmileBasic, Colors and Art Academy for it.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:59
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Here to demonstrate the features of the NX, please welcome Ravi Xylophone 
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Jul 11, 2016 16:22
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Dr Cheeto posted:They used a dedicated little board specifically for this IIRC. Nah they emulate, which is why some games run like poo poo
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Jul 11, 2016 16:47
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The OG fat PS3 had the PS2 hardware built in so it could be backwards compatible. The Wii U has a separate partition and boot loader that uses the same CPU and GPU to run Wii software natively. The Xbox 360 used a software emulator that was kinda broken and never worked right. The Bone uses a mix of software emulation and recompiled executables to run Xbox 360 games.
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Jul 11, 2016 16:56
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Mercury Crusader posted:If this generation of consoles has taught us anything, it's that backwards compatibility is pointless when people are more than willing to buy "Remastered" ports of last generation games that they've already played through with no problem whatsoever, even if it's only been like a year or two since it was originally released. The NX would benefit a lot from either one of those things tbh, there's quite a few great games that most people missed out on because no one bought a Wii U.
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Jul 11, 2016 17:21
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