Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Lottery of Babylon
Apr 25, 2012

STRAIGHT TROPIN'

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

Anyway that got me thinking about two things - one, is there any good quotes from DE types laying out anti-LGBT opinions?

What to replace sexual orientation theory with

Sexual orientation is a scientific theory, but when you say out loud what it entails, you laugh out loud. While I’m interested in the reasons for the lies of feminism and race-doesnt-exist-ism, sexual orientation is to me pretty clearly not a remotely serious proposition but just a Schilling point for the proggies.

It appears barely believable when you sever your views about human sexuality from both reproduction and ethology. The next generation grows up watching The Discovery Channel, and will think more clearly by and large about ethological issues including the Jewish parasite.

So I’m not here to say that sexual orientation is retarded, but to give pointers to where to look to be actually informed about the other choices humans have beyond marriage.

Marriage is good for humans. It is also good for penguins and snowy owls, who go back to the same partners every breeding season. Peacocks, meanwhile, put on as much bling as they can afford, so they can get a hook up.

Duck women can either get married, have steady boyfriends, hook up, or get raped. They have specially designed vaginas – vaginas, not cloacas – so they can have some control over whether they actually get inseminated by their rapists. Of course, we’re not supposed to talk about the fact that human women also can be raped and want to be raped by the most impressive man. Even progressives who own cats know that cats always reproduce through rape.

Giraffes headbutt their women, then lick their urine, to determine if they are in season. Some human men can sense whether better than other human men whether women are in season. Bear men sometimes infanticide children so the women will go into estrus sooner.

Zebra men will infanticide the new children of their new sex slaves, which is a pretty common and not very talked about occurrence in humans, especially with Black men infanticiding stepchildren. Left unsaid by the ethologists making the video I watched about the zebras is how zebra women ended up following around the strongest man as a harem. I think it’s pretty clear that they do it to avoid infanticide.

Some species of goats like to separate into separate herds. So do the Ents – as Fangorn sadly tells the tale, the Entwives wanted to make nice gardens and the Ents weren’t interested, so they separated, and then they lost track of each other, and there haven’t been any Entings in an age.

Anyway, that’s all about rape and infanticide. My purpose here was transgenderism and sexual orientation.

Salmen like to find a good woman and fertilize her egg pile. Weak salmen, who aren’t able to compete, like to not wear the bright colors salmen are supposed to wear, but instead pretend to be women and skulk around egg piles guarded by salmen who are obeying their gender role. The other salmen probably think that faggots are disgusting and should be fed to the bears, but, it’s an equilibrium.

In one species of goats, that separates into separate herds, there are transwomen. They get the advantage of if a woman enters estrus begins before the herds recombine they get to nail her first. Human transwomen who want to access female safe spaces don’t even promise that they’re only interested in “having sex with” men.

That’s it for transgenderism. But what of sexual orientation?

Everyone hears about the bonobos that love to have lots of sex, including homosexual oral sex and sodomy. (Funny story about the baboons, sexual strategies, and speciation – http://youtu.be/4LTWi13_jjk?t=17m30s – of course, it’s nothing we haven’t seen before). No one ever accuses them of being gay. No one ever talks about how they use man-on-man action to rank themselves, either. Human men who are in prison are notorious for using sodomy to rank themselves.

But wait, why would Anal Turing and Oscar Wild have been interested in buggery, when they were pretty popular guys? Well, I don’t have answers for everything. Also, what’s the deal with humans, in particular the Muzzies, using 12 year old boys for Greek sex? At some point, you’re not ranking yourself, you’re just a pervert, right? The Muzzies may be responding to a culture in which the strongest men have four wives and most men must content themselves with buggering each other, and showing off their strength by buggering the choicest of men. But that doesn’t explain the Greeks like Plato.

Anyway, it’s pretty clear that buggery is a show you put on to impress women, that transwomanism is an attempt to circumvent social mores to access women, and that humans should only be allowed to reproduce in one man : one women marriages. At least until we figure out how to build perfect comrades in tanks.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Woolie Wool
Jun 2, 2006


Parallel Paraplegic posted:

I was talking to my DE-believing-in, /pol/-posting yet gay and genderfluid "friend" earlier today and pointed out that if the DE gets their way he'd probably be up against the wall first with the rest of the "degenerates" and he came back with "actually there's probably more gays and transpeople (and weebs and neets) in the alt-right than in most other internet subcultures" and all I had as a comeback was "the only ones I know are terrible people like Milo and Justine Tunny" and then it just devolved into a weird "would you do Justine Tunny" thing (he would, I wouldn't because I find despicable views a major turn-off, for the record).

Anyway that got me thinking about two things - one, is there any good quotes from DE types laying out anti-LGBT opinions? All I have is people saying wishy-washy things like Milo does. The other is whether or not there's any actual data on how many horrible race traitors completely earnest but just misled LGBT people are in the alt-right. I guess it kind of makes sense that there would be, considering how many people grew up steeped in 4chan, how many people don't want to be associated with the "effeminate queens" part of gayness, and how the only real option for being a right-wing/edgelord these days if you're young and gay is the alt-right I guess.

:psyduck: You can "not be associated with the 'effeminate queens' part of gayness" just by not being camp. It's not like the Homintern are going to loving arrest you for being insufficiently fabulous. Some people like that sort of thing, some people don't, there's no reason to become an anusbreathing shitlord and poo poo on people who do like it.

Some rear end in a top hat quoted by LoB posted:

Sexual orientation is a scientific theory, but when you say out loud what it entails, you laugh out loud. While I’m interested in the reasons for the lies of feminism and race-doesnt-exist-ism, sexual orientation is to me pretty clearly not a remotely serious proposition but just a Schilling point for the proggies.

I did nazi this pun coming! :godwin:

Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 04:55 on Jul 10, 2016

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Woolie Wool posted:

:psyduck: You can "not be associated with the 'effeminate queens' part of gayness" just by not being camp. It's not like the Homintern are going to loving arrest you for being insufficiently fabulous. Some people like that sort of thing, some people don't, there's no reason to become an anusbreathing shitlord and poo poo on people who do like it.

I mean I know this but yet I've met several gays who have to suffix "I am gay" with "but I don't act gay, i'm not like that," and I know a big problem with Grindr is all the people demanding MASC ONLY or whatever for their totally no homo 69 sessions.

Maybe it's just living in the south that's loving everything up.


Thanks, you're the best poster :3:

Woolie Wool
Jun 2, 2006


Parallel Paraplegic posted:

I mean I know this but yet I've met several gays who have to suffix "I am gay" with "but I don't act gay, i'm not like that," and I know a big problem with Grindr is all the people demanding MASC ONLY or whatever for their totally no homo 69 sessions.

Maybe it's just living in the south that's loving everything up.

Who was that totally no homo Nordic YouTube guy with the bleached blond hair and steroid physique who spouts NRx bullshit while flexing shirtless? Dude was like a walking parody.

Lady Naga
Apr 25, 2008

Voyons Donc!

Woolie Wool posted:

Who was that totally no homo Nordic YouTube guy with the bleached blond hair and steroid physique who spouts NRx bullshit while flexing shirtless? Dude was like a walking parody.

The Golden One, still on his crusade to eliminate all the hoh moh sessual beh tahs.

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

I was talking to my DE-believing-in, /pol/-posting yet gay and genderfluid "friend" earlier today and pointed out that if the DE gets their way he'd probably be up against the wall first with the rest of the "degenerates" and he came back with "actually there's probably more gays and transpeople (and weebs and neets) in the alt-right than in most other internet subcultures" and all I had as a comeback was "the only ones I know are terrible people like Milo and Justine Tunny" and then it just devolved into a weird "would you do Justine Tunny" thing (he would, I wouldn't because I find despicable views a major turn-off, for the record).

Anyway that got me thinking about two things - one, is there any good quotes from DE types laying out anti-LGBT opinions? All I have is people saying wishy-washy things like Milo does. The other is whether or not there's any actual data on how many horrible race traitors completely earnest but just misled LGBT people are in the alt-right. I guess it kind of makes sense that there would be, considering how many people grew up steeped in 4chan, how many people don't want to be associated with the "effeminate queens" part of gayness, and how the only real option for being a right-wing/edgelord these days if you're young and gay is the alt-right I guess.

He's full of poo poo, and is claiming some Reagan "silent majority" bullshit. Most of the channer LGBT I know are far-left tumblr-krew, moderate libertarians, or stringently apolitical. There are the occasional edgelords who might flirt with Alt-Right poo poo, but I can count the number on one hand.

divabot
Jun 17, 2015

A polite little mouse!

ikanreed posted:

So... I decided to go to a futurism meetup.
Didn't last long until the words "blockchain" and "singularity" made an appearance and the idea of progress was turned into a single variable with "exponential" increase. Still, these were real people and I didn't want to treat them with the same scorn I reserve for internet hugbox people doing the same thing.

Yes yes but did they get into the thinly-veiled scientific racism?

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

I was talking to my DE-believing-in, /pol/-posting yet gay and genderfluid "friend" earlier today and pointed out that if the DE gets their way he'd probably be up against the wall first with the rest of the "degenerates" and he came back with "actually there's probably more gays and transpeople (and weebs and neets) in the alt-right than in most other internet subcultures" and all I had as a comeback was "the only ones I know are terrible people like Milo and Justine Tunny" and then it just devolved into a weird "would you do Justine Tunny" thing (he would, I wouldn't because I find despicable views a major turn-off, for the record).

It's true, though, that the word salad Moldbug fan club end of neoreaction is hella queer. Despite the galloping homophobia.

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

Anyway that got me thinking about two things - one, is there any good quotes from DE types laying out anti-LGBT opinions? All I have is people saying wishy-washy things like Milo does. The other is whether or not there's any actual data on how many horrible race traitors completely earnest but just misled LGBT people are in the alt-right. I guess it kind of makes sense that there would be, considering how many people grew up steeped in 4chan, how many people don't want to be associated with the "effeminate queens" part of gayness, and how the only real option for being a right-wing/edgelord these days if you're young and gay is the alt-right I guess.

I actually know of nothing coherent that doesn't descend into difficult-to-quote word salad.

Fututor Magnus
Feb 22, 2016

by FactsAreUseless
This alt-right critical analysis of Zootopia is a loving goldmine.

McGlockenshire
Dec 16, 2005

GOLLOCKS!

(((the article))) posted:

Almost immediately, she learns that it was all con-artistry and she was the mark. Nick took the enormous $15 elephant-sized popsicle, melted it down into dozens of “pawsicles” and resold them at $2 each. The Fox, a clear stand-in for a member of a parasite tribe, had gotten the better of her. Looking carefully at his cooler, the sticker says “Niceberg.” Was that a subtle allusion to his (((ethnicity))) or just a random word that rhymes with Iceberg. We think the former is more likely, yet the latter offers plausible deniability.


Holy gently caress, these people.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Shouldn't he be a rat then, by the allegorical logic of nazi fuckheads?

Baloogan
Dec 5, 2004
Fun Shoe
.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Jack Gladney posted:

Shouldn't he be a rat then, by the allegorical logic of nazi fuckheads?
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/fuchs.htm

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009


The gently caress is up with that writing? Is that just ridiculously flamboyant cursive? It looks more like Armenian script.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Tesseraction posted:

The gently caress is up with that writing? Is that just ridiculously flamboyant cursive? It looks more like Armenian script.
before the 1940s or 50s, german was written in a different script than the Romance languages and english
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
That Zootopia thing reminds me of that one glowing neo-Nazi review of The Angry Birds Movie.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005


Lottery of Babylon posted:

What to replace sexual orientation theory with

Sexual orientation is a scientific theory, but when you say out loud what it entails, you laugh out loud. While I’m interested in the reasons for the lies of feminism and race-doesnt-exist-ism, sexual orientation is to me pretty clearly not a remotely serious proposition but just a Schilling point for the proggies.

I tried looking up "Schilling point," which doesn't seem to be a thing (other than a location in Virginia). Google suggested "Schelling point" as an alternative, so I checked that out, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense in this context, so now I'm just :psyduck: trying to figure out what he thought he was expressing. A misspelled "shilling" meant to replace "talking" in "talking point"? Just a complete misunderstanding of a basic concept? What was this strange man trying to say?!

(I'm also wondering how bottom surgery fits into his theory of how transwomen just want to sneakily inseminate all the ciswomen.)

Tardigrade
Jul 13, 2012

Half arthropod, half marshmallow, all cute.

Lottery of Babylon posted:

Duck women
Zebra men
zebra women
Salmen like to find a good woman
if a woman enters estrus

Is this the opposite of the stemlord tendency to overuse "females"?

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Puppy Time posted:

I tried looking up "Schilling point," which doesn't seem to be a thing (other than a location in Virginia). Google suggested "Schelling point" as an alternative, so I checked that out, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense in this context, so now I'm just :psyduck: trying to figure out what he thought he was expressing. A misspelled "shilling" meant to replace "talking" in "talking point"? Just a complete misunderstanding of a basic concept? What was this strange man trying to say?!

(I'm also wondering how bottom surgery fits into his theory of how transwomen just want to sneakily inseminate all the ciswomen.)

It's some game theory jargon they've appropriated and made too big of a deal about(like all game theory amiright)

Woolie Wool
Jun 2, 2006


Puppy Time posted:

I tried looking up "Schilling point," which doesn't seem to be a thing (other than a location in Virginia). Google suggested "Schelling point" as an alternative, so I checked that out, but even that doesn't make a lot of sense in this context, so now I'm just :psyduck: trying to figure out what he thought he was expressing. A misspelled "shilling" meant to replace "talking" in "talking point"? Just a complete misunderstanding of a basic concept? What was this strange man trying to say?!

(I'm also wondering how bottom surgery fits into his theory of how transwomen just want to sneakily inseminate all the ciswomen.)

He was trying to say (((Jews))) because he is an anti-semite. Or at least, it sure looks like anti-semitism.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

McGlockenshire posted:

Holy gently caress, these people.

hahaha. holy poo poo. so the foxs are supposed be jews now. wtf. I thought it was kinda supposed to be the lesson of "everyone can be an intolerant dickhead, so try to actualy learn the truth and meet people"

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 7, 2010

by R. Guyovich

Dapper_Swindler posted:

hahaha. holy poo poo. so the foxs are supposed be jews now. wtf. I thought it was kinda supposed to be the lesson of "everyone can be an intolerant dickhead, so try to actualy learn the truth and meet people"

This is probably the nicest comparison of Jews to animals an anti-semite has ever made. Foxes are cool as heck. Progress!

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

divabot posted:

Yes yes but did they get into the thinly-veiled scientific racism?

Nope, just a casual focus on the white middle class future without a word towards any other segment of society. More privileged than racist. Definitely all left-leaning types.

ManlyGrunting
May 29, 2014

McGlockenshire posted:

Holy gently caress, these people.

Hey now, Nick was just taking a service for those who needed more resources and was able to turn a profit by selling it to those who might need it more and need less but can;t have it. It's the free market at work, baby.

Come to think of it, DE and the alt-right have a really bizarre relationship with capitalism: they hate the elites but rally against groups with the fewest of them, they like the free market but not when it goes out of control and creates the super elites but hate socialism, they like libertarian values but constantly try for collectivism through race or social class instead of nationality, despite being heavily nationalist. It's almost like they don;t give a poo poo about the economy as long as they're not threatened by some other from above or below.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

ManlyGrunting posted:

Hey now, Nick was just taking a service for those who needed more resources and was able to turn a profit by selling it to those who might need it more and need less but can;t have it. It's the free market at work, baby.

Come to think of it, DE and the alt-right have a really bizarre relationship with capitalism: they hate the elites but rally against groups with the fewest of them, they like the free market but not when it goes out of control and creates the super elites but hate socialism, they like libertarian values but constantly try for collectivism through race or social class instead of nationality, despite being heavily nationalist. It's almost like they don;t give a poo poo about the economy as long as they're not threatened by some other from above or below.

Or, you know, they're just mad that capitalism didn't make them the elites like it rightfully should have because they're the sunken socketed white godkin who deserve it more than those jews wall-street hotshots or whatever

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



ManlyGrunting posted:

Hey now, Nick was just taking a service for those who needed more resources and was able to turn a profit by selling it to those who might need it more and need less but can;t have it. It's the free market at work, baby.

Come to think of it, DE and the alt-right have a really bizarre relationship with capitalism: they hate the elites but rally against groups with the fewest of them, they like the free market but not when it goes out of control and creates the super elites but hate socialism, they like libertarian values but constantly try for collectivism through race or social class instead of nationality, despite being heavily nationalist. It's almost like they don;t give a poo poo about the economy as long as they're not threatened by some other from above or below.
They're angry because they can't quite manage to win at the game. Like that China Mieville article.

massive spider
Dec 6, 2006

ManlyGrunting posted:

Hey now, Nick was just taking a service for those who needed more resources and was able to turn a profit by selling it to those who might need it more and need less but can;t have it. It's the free market at work, baby.

Come to think of it, DE and the alt-right have a really bizarre relationship with capitalism: they hate the elites but rally against groups with the fewest of them, they like the free market but not when it goes out of control and creates the super elites but hate socialism, they like libertarian values but constantly try for collectivism through race or social class instead of nationality, despite being heavily nationalist. It's almost like they don;t give a poo poo about the economy as long as they're not threatened by some other from above or below.

The capitalist system is perfect, it's some corrupting element (elites/Jews) that's ruining it.

Samovar
Jun 4, 2011

I'm 😤 not a 🦸🏻‍♂️hero...🧜🏻



Y'know, I'm surprised these dickheads haven't been screaming about Dallas since it would seem to play into their dumb-rear end race realism.

...Or are they commentating on it, and people are just not posting it cause it is depressing as hell?

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

massive spider posted:

The capitalist system is perfect, it's some corrupting element (elites/Jews) that's ruining it.

Like when republicans talk about how the pope only hates capitalism because he's only seen "crony capitalism."

(I still have no idea what the difference is supposed to be)

neonnoodle
Mar 20, 2008

by exmarx

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

Like when republicans talk about how the pope only hates capitalism because he's only seen "crony capitalism."

(I still have no idea what the difference is supposed to be)
Capitalism done by swarthy people.

Peztopiary
Mar 16, 2009

by exmarx

Darth Walrus posted:

Did they at least have nice art?

The Italian Futurists were protofascist dickbags, but some of the stuff they came up with was hella rad.

Plus they lived their philosophy and died horrifically doing so, so points for conviction.

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

I was talking to my DE-believing-in, /pol/-posting yet gay and genderfluid "friend" earlier today and pointed out that if the DE gets their way he'd probably be up against the wall first with the rest of the "degenerates" and he came back with "actually there's probably more gays and transpeople (and weebs and neets) in the alt-right than in most other internet subcultures"...

The thing with the LGBT folks in the alt-right is that we'd be second against the wall. First would be whatever groups actively opposed them, second would be us, and then when society hadn't magically fixed itself third would be the people on the alt-right who agreed but didn't agree hard enough. The gentleman's agreement they've got about no enemies to the Right only lasts as long as there is a coherent Left. Once they've crushed the opposition into the ground it's open season on allies. Better hope you picked the right brand of Monarchism/Elitism/Some weird psuedo-nationalism or you're next for the skull pile.

Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011


I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

Will Davis Aurini get to curate the skull pile? He's spent a lifetime preparing.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Small Frozen Thing posted:

He's full of poo poo, and is claiming some Reagan "silent majority" bullshit. Most of the channer LGBT I know are far-left tumblr-krew, moderate libertarians, or stringently apolitical. There are the occasional edgelords who might flirt with Alt-Right poo poo, but I can count the number on one hand.

I don't think he's saying "a majority of LGBT people are actually in the alt-right," he's saying "the alt-right has a significant amount of / majority LGBT people." The first one is trivially untrue, the second one is hard to prove either way since I don't even have any good statistics on how many people constitute the alt-right to begin with.

Peztopiary posted:

The thing with the LGBT folks in the alt-right is that we'd be second against the wall. First would be whatever groups actively opposed them, second would be us, and then when society hadn't magically fixed itself third would be the people on the alt-right who agreed but didn't agree hard enough. The gentleman's agreement they've got about no enemies to the Right only lasts as long as there is a coherent Left. Once they've crushed the opposition into the ground it's open season on allies. Better hope you picked the right brand of Monarchism/Elitism/Some weird psuedo-nationalism or you're next for the skull pile.

Yeah, though I'm not sure how to convey this fact to someone who's already a self-professed ancap and who was saddened when moldbug closed his blog.

... maybe I should just :sever:

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Parallel Paraplegic posted:

I don't think he's saying "a majority of LGBT people are actually in the alt-right," he's saying "the alt-right has a significant amount of / majority LGBT people." The first one is trivially untrue, the second one is hard to prove either way since I don't even have any good statistics on how many people constitute the alt-right to begin with.

Let me adjust that for you: There are a number of gay people, no lesbians that I'm aware of, at least one transwoman, and probably some bisexuals.

ManlyGrunting
May 29, 2014

Samovar posted:

Y'know, I'm surprised these dickheads haven't been screaming about Dallas since it would seem to play into their dumb-rear end race realism.

...Or are they commentating on it, and people are just not posting it cause it is depressing as hell?

Mostly that. I've seen it about but I'm not about to go searching for it. Mostly they're doubling down on BLM though: you know, the ones having a peaceful protest who were getting along fine with the cops to the degree that they weren't wearing body armour to de-escalate the situation? :sigh:

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

The Vosgian Beast posted:

no lesbians that I'm aware of

There are some TERFs who have made allies with Alt-Right folks, but they don't consider themselves "alt-right"

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow
I feel like TERFs are enough of their own weird terrible thing that I'm willing to acknowledge that distinction.

As opposed to the distinction between MRAs and PUAs, which should eternally be ignored to enrage both semi-identical parties

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/...ment-2769563885


i love modern nerddom

pookel
Oct 27, 2011

Ultra Carp
I can see how "basing all your opinions on gender relations on antiquated stereotypes and quack science" is a thing that would appeal equally well to gay men as to MRA incels. Both groups usually lack experience in interacting with real women in the dating arena or having to care about women's issues.

I Killed GBS
Jun 2, 2011

by Lowtax

Haha, someone was butthurt

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

pookel posted:

I can see how "basing all your opinions on gender relations on antiquated stereotypes and quack science" is a thing that would appeal equally well to gay men as to MRA incels. Both groups usually lack experience in interacting with real women in the dating arena or having to care about women's issues.

Might want to rephrase that a little. It sounds like you're implying that gay men can't have empathy for women, which is pretty unsteady ground to walk on.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply