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Jul 11, 2016 07:25
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Deep Thought posted:All bullshit? Those would make famous last words for a cryptanalyst. Are you trying to imply that a dumb pop culture reference in a kid's cartoon is actually proof that numerology has legs, or something? Did your post have a point? quote:You seem sure, fair enough then. I'm sure because I realize that you can find arbitrary significance in meaningless patterns everywhere you look, but that doesn't give those interpretations actual significance. Humans are good at pattern matching, so good that we find a lot of false positives. quote:Ok. There's not any real significance just in three famous English people (can't really class Rickman as an icon in the same way) dying shortly after each other, plus Lemmy died a month before hand, so I concede. But don't you find it at all strange that Rickman played a Dr. Lazarus, Bowie made a song called Lazarus and Lemmy's death was reported in the RadioTimes by a 'Susasanna Lazarus' (ok that one is a stretch)? The word that you're looking for is "coincidence". Sometimes, when flipping a coin, you flip heads 10 times in a row. The difference between a numerologist and everyone else is that the numerologist would find some sort of cosmic significance in this event.
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Jul 11, 2016 07:31
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Deep Thought posted:All bullshit? Those would make famous last words for a cryptanalyst. See? Certifiable nutcase. (Yes, in fact, this is all bullshit, and crypto stuff doesn't work by arbitrarily assigning numbers to events in a way that makes your delusions tingle but involves finding actual algorithms used to garble a real message that is actually there. Since you can't just wave your hands and say "goddidit" or "a wizard did it" the whole premise is blatantly insane). suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 08:58
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Since you can't just wave your hands and say "goddidit" or "a wizard did it" the whole premise is blatantly insane). This is a loving funny sentence
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Jul 11, 2016 09:31
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That is amazing, the effort involved! I like to think of the internet numerologists like a double digit IQ Bletchley Park.
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Jul 11, 2016 10:41
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Schizophrenic reasoning really is interesting stuff sometimes, in terms of how , almost, rational it can be , assuming one accepts a completely different mode of logic. My schizophrenic friend was also a pretty heavy weed smoker, and one day when visiting he pulled out this scientific paper on weed and schizophrenia he had photocopied at the library. It featured the words "Family and friends of schizophrenics who use cannabis report more intense delusional behavior when the patient is under the influence" (or something like that, this was around '93 so my memory is flakey her). He pointed at it and said "I TOLD YOU. THIS PROVES POT ISNT HARMING ME". I looked at it and said "Well, no it suggests the opposite"? And he said "Dont you get it, pot makes your family have delusional behavior. It makes them confusde and think its bad for me!". And in the strangest way I could understand how one could read it that way, as long as one reads it in the paranoid leap-to-huge-conclusions sort of way schizophrenics do.
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Jul 11, 2016 11:18
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Illuminti posted:I like to think of the internet numerologists like a double digit IQ Bletchley Park. For some reason the mental image of a room full of mentally retarded code breakers pouring over hitlers telegrams is funnier than it really has any right to be. Helmets, bibs, and bombes
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Jul 11, 2016 11:21
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duck monster posted:For some reason the mental image of a room full of mentally retarded code breakers pouring over hitlers telegrams is funnier than it really has any right to be. Helmets, bibs, and bombes Freaking out that there are German spies in the building because tonight's dinner menu adds up to 33. Also someone has been sneaking into their rooms and moving stuff around.
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Jul 11, 2016 12:09
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Basically John Nash.
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Jul 11, 2016 13:07
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While grateful for the many concerns about my mental health I can assure you that I'm quite well. I would actually argue that Numerology has been very misrepresented in this thread. It is a truly fascinating subject if one manages to find someone that practices actual numerology and doesn't use some simple mathematic tricks to give people fortune cookies. Numerology is originally the study of numbers. What in mathematics is called number theory (where do numbers come from?). When we think of the bible or other mythical texts we often assume plenty, and know very little. So let us go back to some basics. The "texts" were originally told as stories in illiterate cultures. These stories are often rigidly structured in order to make them more memorable. verses, rhymes etc. As an example both the Illiad and the Bible have a mathematical structure that encodes it's "verse". In both cases the mathematical construction is way more elaborate than a simple verse but I'm simplifying here. In illiterate cultures the entire knowledge of the culture is often carried in the form of stories. Since these preliterate cultures often knew quite a lot of mathematics as evidenced in the giant construction projects of the era we should assume that there is knowledge about mathematics in these "stories". Many of these "stories" are mathematic in nature and might have been used to teach mathematics in some form. Hence it is quite safe to assume that there are quite a lot of "numerology"/"mathematics" in the bible. Since both the greek and hebreic alphabet have a numeric component (letter are also assigned a numerical value) some texts can be read as both story and equation. It is therefor very easy to move a story from a literal to a numeric reading This video is a tad long and quite interesting and interprets the story of genesis as the creation of the universe from prime numbers and Euclidian geometry (from which Pythagorean geometry can be formed). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaWfQWHsa5M If you don't wish to view the video, spoiler, Gods name is (Pi^7)*(Pi^7) This name of god/ "mathematic expression" expresses the mathematical laws that govern life in gods creation. (it expresses both Pi and Phi). The very fact that the true name of God can be expressed in a mathematical formula that encapsulates the specific irrational numbers that allows life to exist is if not proof of God's existance, a very strong indicator that the "hidden meaning of the bible" that can be found by numerology i mathematics written down by a culture with viewed both God, mathematics bus also literacy and culture very differently from us. On of the first applications of numerology in the ancient world was the invention of the cypher. Thus "numerology" might mean the work of "decypher"-ing ancient texts such as the Bible or other ancient texts. These cyphers were then used by "alchemists" in the medieval era in order to hide heretical research from the church. So many of the texts of "alchemic" origin re-use different cyphers and might have other meanings within them than the gibberish they are so famous for. Trying to "crack" these texts and reveal the "hidden" meaning within can thus be a quite different activity than most would assume. It is still like philatelism a road to madness and despair but it's quite interesting. From what I can see now it does appear that "old pagan" cosmologies were not stories about quarreling siblings but highly refined mathematical constructs that narrate the creation the physical world (Prima materia) from the platonic world of prime numbers, geometric shapes and the possibilities created from there. The entity we call "God" is considered the originator of the numbers themselves. These insights have helped me tremendously in studying the worldviews of early christian thinkers. Their Neo-Platonism now seems much more explainable than the older "ethical" arguments that I had heard before. So yeah. Study numerology. It's quite cool. It is after all the hallmark of the educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it so there is nothing to be afraid of. Quift fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 13:19
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Yeah, the same book that claimed pi=3 is actually a mathematical guide to the secrets of the universe. I agree.
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Jul 11, 2016 13:32
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Quift posted:While grateful for the many concerns about my mental health I can assure you that I'm quite well. That's what every crazy person says, you know. duck monster posted:Schizophrenic reasoning really is interesting stuff sometimes, in terms of how , almost, rational it can be , assuming one accepts a completely different mode of logic. The study may have been along the lines of "When family and friends believe a schizophrenic person is high, they believe that they're suffering from more delusional behavior regardless of their actual consumption". Which would make a leap to "Pot makes my parents delusional when I smoke it" pretty easy. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Aug 17, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 13:37
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duck monster posted:Schizophrenic reasoning really is interesting stuff sometimes, in terms of how , almost, rational it can be , assuming one accepts a completely different mode of logic. Given how weed had have a really aggravating effect on schizophrenia, I am slightly worried about what is going to happen when it's legalized in more places and becomes more available. I think we'll end up seeing more people who were borderline cases end up fully crazy and not immediately recognize why.
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Jul 11, 2016 13:47
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Quift posted:
So God not only left clues to his existence, but he did so in a way that would require a language that wouldn't exist for thousands of years and originated in another part of the world from its origins. Good thing English ditched the letter yogh then or we'd never uncover this key to the universe hey?
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Jul 11, 2016 13:53
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Mr. Sunshine posted:Yeah, the same book that claimed pi=3 is actually a mathematical guide to the secrets of the universe. I agree. I'm not claiming that the Bible contains unknown mathematical "Secrets" that we should "decypher" in order to understand the universe. I'm claiming that parts of the bible were used to teach mathematics since it contains knowledge about the subject. What we might get a better understanding of is the culture that wrote the Bible as well as other cultures from the same era that might have used similar models to express their thinking. Pythagoras comes to mind. And the bible like most ancients gives Pi as 22/7.
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Jul 11, 2016 13:53
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Pythagoras was completely loving insane so he's not really helping your case. I mean he's my favourite figure of ancient Greece but thats mostly because of how insane he was.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:03
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 Drudge is back on the infowars train again.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:11
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Baka-nin posted:So God not only left clues to his existence, but he did so in a way that would require a language that wouldn't exist for thousands of years and originated in another part of the world from its origins. Good thing English ditched the letter yogh then or we'd never uncover this key to the universe hey? I don't think you understand the reasoning so I will try to make it a bit clearer. To begin with I'm not making an argument for the existence of God. What I'm trying to do is to get inside the head of early christian scholars and they are all theists. So all reasoning must be made with a theistic mindset. From a theistic standpoint the existence of God is evident through the act of creation ex nihilo. God doesn't need us to express himself. He has already done so through his creation. We on the other hand need to understand creation since we cannot boil a cup of tea without some basic understanding. If we wish to understand God we should do this by trying to understand and observe creation. If we do this we will find that creation consists of two things. Matter and Pattern. (etomology is fun!) From the patterns we can create a purely symbolic language and we then discover mathematics. Since mathematics isn't invented as much as discovered it is often referred to as "the language of God". From here we get to the Platonic Ideal (and Pythagoras before him). We can now start to express ideal forms. If we consider these forms are as real without being physical, we get a lot of interesting questions about the universe. Most of which are still not solved.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:18
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Skinty McEdger posted:Pythagoras was completely loving insane so he's not really helping your case. To claim that he was insane with such certainty is an obvious sign of delusion. No healthy mind would ever assume so much on the back of so little.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:23
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Quift posted:I don't think you understand the reasoning so I will try to make it a bit clearer. To begin with I'm not making an argument for the existence of God. What I'm trying to do is to get inside the head of early christian scholars and they are all theists. So all reasoning must be made with a theistic mindset. You used a video arguing a number sequence proves the existence of God, to validate your claim that numerology has hidden truths. I've given you a few incredibly basic reasons why the example you've cited is absurd. The man could of found that Genesis converts to Pi or a recipe for rice pudding, it doesn't matter, his methods are flawed, so by necessity must be the conclusions he has drawn from it and the ones you have drawn from them too. Your one example of hidden mathematics isn't true so your hypothesis has no backing regardless of your stand point.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:23
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Sir Tonk posted:
The cops actually did something kinda crazy this time: they wheeled a bomb disposal robot carrying a block of C4 into the room the Dallas police shooter was hiding in and blew him up. The last time police are known to have used bombs in a siege, it was firebombing the ghetto in Philadelphia. Not really a good connotation there.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:24
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Quift posted:I'm not claiming that the Bible contains unknown mathematical "Secrets" that we should "decypher" in order to understand the universe.  idiots do.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:28
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Quift posted:And the bible like most ancients gives Pi as 22/7. Where?
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Jul 11, 2016 14:32
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Baka-nin posted:You used a video arguing a number sequence proves the existence of God, to validate your claim that numerology has hidden truths. I've given you a few incredibly basic reasons why the example you've cited is absurd. The man could of found that Genesis converts to Pi or a recipe for rice pudding, it doesn't matter, his methods are flawed, so by necessity must be the conclusions he has drawn from it and the ones you have drawn from them too. You mix up the arguments. He claims that applying numerology to the Bible expresses God in mathematical terms and thus proves God. I claim that by applying numerology to the creation myth he uncovers an elegant and mathematical world-view within these texts. A mathematical world-view that is probably a better representation of how great thinkers like Aristotle, Thomas of Aquinas or Plato viewed the world than the children tales that is told at the surface. I do not claim that this world view is correct (which my source does). I merely admire the elegance of it. Specially when I compare it to the lacklustre cosmology of our own culture.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:35
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Quift posted:
????
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Jul 11, 2016 14:39
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Quift posted:You mix up the arguments. No I don not you are being deliberately facetious now. You cited the video to show that number sequences can reveal hidden truths. I've shown that he is incorrect therefore you haven't actually proven anything at all because your evidence is false, whether you believe in God or not is completely irrelevant, you believe he proves your bizarre faith in numerology has validity and I have shown you otherwise.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:40
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You know, most untreated religious schizophrenic people I've... Received words from all claim that "Schizophrenia isn't a Debilitation, it is a Gift from God.". The others deny having it. Quift, please go get professional help. We aren't trolling, we are honestly trying to help you. Focacciasaurus_Rex fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 14:41
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Quift posted:I claim that by applying numerology to the creation myth he uncovers an elegant and mathematical world-view within these texts. A mathematical world-view that is probably a better representation of how great thinkers like Aristotle, Thomas of Aquinas or Plato viewed the world than the children tales that is told at the surface.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:44
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Jethro posted:The problem is, applying numerology to any text can never reveal anything about that text. It can only tell you anything about the person doing the numerology. So it's a bit like reading the news?
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Jul 11, 2016 14:51
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Jethro posted:The problem is, applying numerology to any text can never reveal anything about that text. It can only tell you anything about the person doing the numerology. Numerology has no basic rules. The various guidebooks and older texts all have different numerical symbols and methods and rules. People will outright ignore or deny ones except the ones they actually use. It's confirmation bias all the way down. I've read books, each different and each having very sincere followers, where the "Numerological Name of god" are- 0 1 3 11 ("if Only they knew") 13 42 (Yes, really. Guy was 'decoding' Hitchiker's.) 777 ("Satan's number is 666, and god is greater than satan in all ways.") 2,582,325 8,000,000 The infinity symbol, which isn't a number but they insisted it was. and, of course, "An unknowable divine number that mortal maths cannot represent." It's all bullshit.
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Jul 11, 2016 14:52
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Quift posted:So it's a bit like reading the news? Yeah the news is entirely subjective who knows if things actually happen maaaaaaaan
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Jul 11, 2016 15:04
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Quift posted:So it's a bit like reading the news? Yes, cognitive biases are the prime driver when people try to use it to support their conclusions, good job! Normal functioning humans try to minimize those biases. NLJP posted:???? Reality has such a poo poo narrative arc, maaaan.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:06
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Your basic argument here seems to be that because this individual is able to derive a mathematical formula here, then there must be some sort of universal underlying mathematical formula that ties all things together, even if this particular example perfectly complete. This argument allows you to claim all kinds of wild things as evidence or proof for your thesis, whilst ignoring whenever a particular piece of "evidence" whenever it does not turn out to be true because you're not trying to prove the individual claim of a particular piece of evidence, you're trying to prove that because there's so many different pieces of evidence they all must mean something . This faulty structural logic that underlies your argument is what I feel that many in this thread are objecting to, Quift. You are essentially taking a position wear whatever evidence you offered to support it does not actually have to pan out to be true, you think that the simple act of being able to offer any form of evidence whatsoever proves your general thesis. As a result meaningfully disagreeing or debating with you is impossible, because you don't actually care whether your evidence is correct or not. You only care that some form of what you consider evidence exists, and you're not trying to prove a specific mathematical formula so much as you're trying to prove that there must be one. Also your belief structure seemingly carries the imolication that if one could understand and recognize this underlying mathematical formula then one would have access to incredible insight into the world. Or rather, some sort of Godlike power is possible if one only understands the formula that God used to create the world. Many posters will perceive this as an example of magical thinking. With all that said Quift please allow me to add to the chorus of voices who are encouraging you to seek professional Mental Health help. I'm coming from this as a diagnosed schizophrenic that sees a great deal of the same type of logic and belief structures in your writing as what my own belief structure and arguments word before I was formally diagnosed and sought treatment. Although there are a few people trolling you here, (as you should expect from an internet message board), I would say that their are also a good number of posters in this thread that are genuinely concerned for you, and are suggesting you seek professional help in good faith.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:06
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Baka-nin posted:No I don not you are being deliberately facetious now. You cited the video to show that number sequences can reveal hidden truths. I've shown that he is incorrect therefore you haven't actually proven anything at all because your evidence is false, whether you believe in God or not is completely irrelevant, you believe he proves your bizarre faith in numerology has validity and I have shown you otherwise. This isn't what I originally intended to argue. Not to mention how you almost deliberately seem to miscontrue my words. So to clarify further. I showed the video since he uses numerology to make an interesting story. (key word here is interesting, not TRUE!). I have no "fatih" in numerology besides the obvious. It exists and has existed in some forms for millennia. It is a part of the historical and cultural inheritance of our culture and merits some study on this basis alone. Your argument that "numerology" is incorrect" is like someone claiming that Gaming theory is irrelevant to study since the house always win at 21. The history of using numerology to read the Bible is millenia old, and still an active part of the both the Christian and the Jewish Faith in many parts of the world. This tradition of applying numerology to the sacred texts to find hidden meaning has had a significant effect on our culture. This regardless of the "scientific merit" of the endeavor. I find this study of ancient texts from a different perspectives interesting, as it gives me more material from which to understand many other texts. Texts that were written by people who had a similar "numerologic" bent. So knowing something about the subjects gives me a better understanding of the world view of the original author.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:14
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Quift posted:I have no "fatih" in numerology besides the obvious. It exists and has existed in some forms for millennia. It is a part of the historical and cultural inheritance of our culture and merits some study on this basis alone. This seems like a pretty dumb reason to study something. People who claim they are psychic have existed for millennia but they certainly don't merit any study beyond "are they scammers or mentally ill?"
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Jul 11, 2016 15:17
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So where's the evidence of all these great thinkers using the bible and other texts for mathematics? Where are the Euclidean proofs that mention they were derived from a previous book? You'd think one of them would have mentioned something... edit: also if you think modern cosmology is lovely and boring I submit that the problem may just possibly lie with you.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:28
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Quift posted:This isn't what I originally intended to argue. Not to mention how you almost deliberately seem to miscontrue my words. I'm afraid I'm not misconstruing anything, I'm explaining why the evidence you've given us isn't convincing, again I don't actually care what your beliefs are since you can't substantiate them, so there really is no point going down that road with you. You keep saying it doesn't matter if its true but then go on to say that it is still useful, this is a contradiction in terms, how can it possibly give you any slither of information on the "original author" if its incorrect? If numerology isn't true then the only information to be gleaned is about the numerologists themselves not the original work in question. You have two choices, either numerology is correct and gives us information and furthers our understanding. Or it is incorrect and therefore is incapable of giving us information. This is the crux of the issue. Baka-nin fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 15:35
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Prester Jane posted:Your basic argument here seems to be that because this individual is able to derive a mathematical formula here, then there must be some sort of universal underlying mathematical formula that ties all things together, even if this particular example perfectly complete. This argument allows you to claim all kinds of wild things as evidence or proof for your thesis, whilst ignoring whenever a particular piece of "evidence" whenever it does not turn out to be true because you're not trying to prove the individual claim of a particular piece of evidence, you're trying to prove that because there's so many different pieces of evidence they all must mean something . My belief structure is not part of the discussion. The personal "beliefs" that I have expressed boil down to "weird subjects are interesting". "Magick" is not a science, nor tries to be.. But it's a very interesting subject with a long history. I'm not given to "magical thinking" in my normal life in case someone wonders. However one needs to have a "magick state of mind" when one discusses magic. Otherwise it doesn't work  Just rest assured that I have an non-magical belief system to default back to.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:36
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Baka-nin posted:I'm afraid I'm not misconstruing anything, I'm explaining why the evidence you've given us isn't convincing, again I don't actually care what your beliefs are since you can't substantiate them, so there really is no point going down that road with you. You keep saying it doesn't matter if its true but then go on to say that it is still useful, this is a contradiction in terms, how can it possibly give you any slither of information on the "original author" if its incorrect? If numerology isn't true then the only information to be gleaned is about the numerologists themselves not the original work in question. My point is exactly that! By studying Numerology we learn more about Numerologists! The validity of the conclusions of numerologists is irrelevant. The study derives it's merit from the historical importance if numerologists in our culture. The conclusions of numerologists are thus interesting from a historical perspective. Therefor I recommend giving this arcane subject some attention. Cause it's interesting.
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Jul 11, 2016 15:45
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Quift posted:My point is exactly that! Yes we learn that they were numerologists and couldn't validate their conclusions, that's it, unless one of them finally cracked the magic code to nirvana we don't gain anything but a list of people who wasted their time. Oh and I've just read your comments again, you were definitely claiming numerology gives you insight into hidden truths about original authors and early scholars. If you wish to be the one to compile that list then feel free to do so. Baka-nin fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jul 11, 2016 |
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Jul 11, 2016 15:52
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