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Alhazred posted:Yes. Modern medicine is based on observation and experimentation, not divine intervention. The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that ferments bread. So many things that are so small and so fast - you couldn't even be sure they happened at all.
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Jul 12, 2016 12:04
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McDowell posted:The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that ferments bread. So many things that are so small and so fast - you couldn't even be sure they happened at all.
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Jul 12, 2016 12:17
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Alhazred posted:Sounds like you're a lovely baker. I'm trying to make an illustration to you about microbiology and the chemical/material miracle of life. But is it surprising to see God's message get such abuse directed at it these days? It's a fast, cheap, out of control world I suppose.
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Jul 12, 2016 12:31
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McDowell posted:The real issue is in yourself - do you want to live forever (either physically and or digitally) in this world, wielding power over others, pursuing a godhood of a sort - or will you accept that your body, spirit, and mind exist at the mercy of God?
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Jul 12, 2016 12:37
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McDowell posted:I'm trying to make an illustration to you about microbiology and the chemical/material miracle of life. But is it surprising to see God's message get such abuse directed at it these days? It's a fast, cheap, out of control world I suppose. Okay, then explain to me how divine intervention made Pasteur discover fermentation.
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Jul 12, 2016 12:43
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^ What circumstances created Louis Pasteur? The same chain of events leading to and stemming from the crucifixion of Christ, the prophecy of Muhammad, and much more.The Belgian posted:The first one. Sure, that is your choice. But such a lesser, material god is still only as permanent as this universe. Humans have full dominion over the Earth now - this stewardship time, this test, is both the beginning and the end of an age.
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Jul 12, 2016 12:43
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McDowell posted:^ What circumstances created Louis Pasteur? The same chain of events leading to and stemming from the crucifixion of Christ, the prophecy of Muhammad, and much more.
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Jul 12, 2016 12:57
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McDowell posted:Sure, that is your choice. But such a lesser, material god is still only as permanent as this universe. Humans have full dominion over the Earth now - this stewardship time, this test, is both the beginning and the end of an age. Universe is pretty permanent. McDowell posted:^ What circumstances created Louis Pasteur? The same chain of events leading to and stemming from the crucifixion of Christ, the prophecy of Muhammad, and much more.
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Jul 12, 2016 13:47
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Conceivable != ActualThe Belgian posted:Universe is pretty permanent. To humans, sure - so is the sun and planet earth. Consider creationism, materialism, and emmanationism - what if, like the holy trinity, all three are 'true'.
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Jul 12, 2016 13:51
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McDowell posted:I would say it is a 6 or 7. Absolutely 100% the former. I see no reason to accept that I should live at the mercy of anything, much less an unknowable entity. And do you have any evidence that anyone was given a gift of "psychic" powers? Edit: McDowell posted:The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that ferments bread. So many things that are so small and so fast - you couldn't even be sure they happened at all. We understand how yeast works very, very well and know for a fact when or when it does not work because we know what effects to be expected. McDowell posted:^ What circumstances created Louis Pasteur? A serious of mostly random events that had no direction behind them. quote:Sure, that is your choice. But such a lesser, material god is still only as permanent as this universe. Humans have full dominion over the Earth now - this stewardship time, this test, is both the beginning and the end of an age. So? McDowell posted:Conceivable != Actual If creationism is true then the creator is stupider than I am because his creations are absolute garbage that I could improve upon in countless ways without even trying. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 14:26
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God gives you free will to believe and worship what you like. I feel these free will and origin of evil problems can be answered to one's satisfaction if you look at what Do and his classroom had to say. But you have the ability to make up your mind - that is with you as long as you exist. Is it better to rule in hell or serve in heaven? A machine shop that makes tanks and guns can just as easily make tractors and washing machines.
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Jul 12, 2016 14:55
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McDowell posted:God gives you free will Does he? How do you know this?
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Jul 12, 2016 14:58
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McDowell posted:God gives you free will to believe and worship what you like. And as I've previous mentioned he also randomly takes it away.
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Jul 12, 2016 15:42
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Alhazred posted:And as I've previous mentioned he also randomly takes it away. That depends on your perspective and your understanding that you are not your vehicle. This planet at this time could be considered as a hell/prison/rehab center.
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Jul 12, 2016 16:04
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McDowell posted:That depends on your perspective and your understanding that you are not your vehicle. This planet at this time could be considered as a hell/prison/rehab center. Why would such a thing be necessary?
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Jul 12, 2016 16:12
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Who What Now posted:Why would such a thing be necessary? Because God made a universe that creates life with free will and the ability to oppose Him.
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Jul 12, 2016 16:30
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McDowell posted:Because God made a universe that creates life with free will and the ability to oppose Him. How do you know this?
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Jul 12, 2016 16:31
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Eskaton posted:Op, I know I'm pulling from way back here, but have you considered that Christianity is also a thing outside of the Bible? Or any religion with a holy book? Yes? Obviously? That's why I said: quote:You can be a Christian who thinks homosexuality is permissible, but saying the Bible doesn't condemn it is just factually wrong. in, you know, the post you quoted. My point was not to say one can't be a Christian without being homophobic, simply that you can't honestly argue that the Bible offers anything but condemnation on the subject of homosexuality. Obviously you can be a Christian without strict adherence to the Bible - many people do. I will say that I can't understand how, though. If you don't trust the Bible to be uniquely reliable in its claims, I don't get how you can conclude that this particular God story is true out of all the God stories, which I imagine you would relegate to the category of "mythology". The Kingfish posted:This is the difference between Christianity and Islam. Please. McDowell posted:Maybe those who directly witnessed the resurrection were given a gift of 'psychic' powers over physiology and chemistry What in the gently caress are you saying? That the disciples invented penicillin? BrandorKP posted:Over a million on the high end 600,000 on the low end depending on the ancient source. Alternative ways of figuring it out range from a third to half of the estimated population, estimates that way range 350000 to 500000+. Then you know all the people turned into slaves, etc. It was pretty loving bad. Shitloads of crucifixions. Are you arguing that because Christ died amidst (what you judge to be) a uniquely egregious circumstance of community-wide suffering, the Gospel accounts are trustworthy? Or that somehow we can glean from this the divinity of Jesus? Also I really don't think the Roman subjugation of Judea is going to be the Holocaust in the degree of human suffering. Far more Jews died, over a shorter (and thus more concentrated) period of time, and being worked to death is most likely far worse than crucifixion. Unless you are willing to accept the Diary of Anne Frank as equally divine, I don't think this is a concrete argument.
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Jul 12, 2016 16:44
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McDowell posted:That depends on your perspective and your understanding that you are not your vehicle. This planet at this time could be considered as a hell/prison/rehab center. Isn't it exhausting to constantly having to make poo poo up in order to justify your faith?
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Jul 12, 2016 16:58
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Unless you are willing to accept the Diary of Anne Frank as equally divine, I don't think this is a concrete argument. I am. The Bible can be considered as a 'history book'. quote:What in the gently caress are you saying? That the disciples invented penicillin? No, I'm saying something special happened 2000 years ago that convinced lots of people and changed the course of history. The chain of events leading to this very moment should be all the proof you need. Lobbing insults at the creator and saying a human 'discovered' or 'invented' something in nature illuminates a certain arrogance.
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Jul 12, 2016 17:24
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Buckwheat Sings posted:Does that mean all of the bible is made of metaphors? Do we pick and choose? More game of thrones than seinfeld. Isaiah and Kings are good books, leviticus is pretty boring except the bits about demons. To answer your questions, not everything in the bible is metaphorical - some of the people were real and some of the events definitely happened and a couple of the places still exist and so on - but it is a mythology, so it should be read in that vein, and not as court stenography or security cam footage.
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Jul 12, 2016 17:51
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McDowell posted:No, I'm saying something special happened 2000 years ago that convinced lots of people and changed the course of history. The chain of events leading to this very moment should be all the proof you need. Lobbing insults at the creator and saying a human 'discovered' or 'invented' something in nature illuminates a certain arrogance. Likewise saying humans can't do anything and giving all credit to God for what humans worked hard to achieve for themselves illuminates a distressing lack of worth placed on your fellow man.
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Jul 12, 2016 17:53
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McDowell posted:The real issue is in yourself - do you want to live forever (either physically and or digitally) in this world, wielding power over others, pursuing a godhood of a sort - or will you accept that your body, spirit, and mind exist at the mercy of God? I want to save humanity from death by any means possible. I don't trust your method to work, although I acknowledge the noble sentiment behind it.
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Jul 12, 2016 18:07
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^ Let go, Luke.Who What Now posted:Likewise saying humans can't do anything and giving all credit to God for what humans worked hard to achieve for themselves illuminates a distressing lack of worth placed on your fellow man. I don't shy away from the label of misanthrope. If you don't have a disdain for the material world you really can't be a disciple of Christ. You also have to think about the difference between being 'mean spirited' and 'good natured'. I think we can agree that humans didn't will themselves into existence, life worked its way up from dust one way or the other.
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Jul 12, 2016 18:09
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McDowell posted:^ Let go, Luke. Well, probably worked its way up from the thermal vents on the ocean floor, but tomato/tomahtoe. But it makes me wonder why you believe in Free Will if you don't think mankind can be given credit for anything? Or why the material world is lesser than... whatever other thing you think exists. How can you be sure that the material world isn't the height of existence and the realm of God is a lesser one?
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Jul 12, 2016 18:20
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McDowell posted:I think we can agree that humans didn't will themselves into existence Why not? That isn't more improbable than being created by a divine being.
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Jul 12, 2016 18:47
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McDowell posted:The real issue is in yourself - do you want to live forever (either physically and or digitally) in this world, wielding power over others, pursuing a godhood of a sort - or will you accept that your body, spirit, and mind exist at the mercy of God? The idea of humans being uploaded digitally is complete science fiction*. If it ever becomes possible, it won't be for a very, very long time. More importantly - Are you just trying to say "I have faith that this is true" or do you believe that the things you're saying should be persuasive and help prove (or at least provide evidence of) your ideas for others? If the former that's totally fine, but if it's the latter you're failing pretty badly. *To clarify, it's in the realm of things that has some chance of technically being possible (as opposed to, say, time travel), but it's so far off that it's not worth considering for anyone of our generation (or even our grandchildren's generation probably). McDowell posted:I think we can agree that humans didn't will themselves into existence, life worked its way up from dust one way or the other. There are many things that spontaneously arise in the universe, and there's no reason life/humans can't be one of those things. The fact that we don't fully understand the mechanisms by which life first arose doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened (and from what I understand there are already a number of plausible ideas; it's just virtually impossible to prove due to the lack of evidence from that long ago). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 18:55
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BrandorKP posted:Over a million on the high end 600,000 on the low end depending on the ancient source. Alternative ways of figuring it out range from a third to half of the estimated population, estimates that way range 350000 to 500000+. Then you know all the people turned into slaves, etc. It was pretty loving bad. Shitloads of crucifixions. Where are you getting these estimates from? Are you saying it was worse than modern atrocities? Or comparable? Black Bones posted:- but it is a mythology, so it should be read in that vein, and not as court stenography or security cam footage. Oh I agree for sure but it's still a funny in a dark humor kind of way. In GOT the general idea is that God doesn't give a poo poo and being smart and sneaky instead of just and righteous keeps you alive. Kind of like how things probably were back then and are now. Most Christians believe in the LITERAL TRUTH or pick and choose passages to be true. Suddenly now gays are ok in the bible because if they aren't then Christianity becomes obsolete. Or how it's ok to setup a Starbucks and banks in churches because that story of a camel walking through an eye of a needle is just saying it's hard to get into heaven. Jesus was just kidding about moneylenders. Also rich people are closer to god instead of poor ones because they're rewarded by god for their success. The whole thing is pretty funny to me. McDowell's comments are probably my favorite since there's a strong sense of scrambling and escapism behind his words. Buckwheat Sings fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 19:23
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Buckwheat Sings posted:Where are you getting these estimates from? Are you saying it was worse than modern atrocities? Or comparable? I'm not scrambling for anything, the responses to what I am trying to tell you don't surprise me at all. You have the right idea about how all religions are less than truth because churches are constructs of the human world. I am trying to direct you to other stepping stones on the path of Truth- which is a living, changing thing.
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Jul 12, 2016 19:32
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McDowell posted:I am. The Bible can be considered as a 'history book'. Well, yes, a flawed and heavily biased one. It can be useful in some respects in the study of history. I'll grant you that. Also that had nothing to do with what I was asking. quote:No, I'm saying something special happened 2000 years ago that convinced lots of people and changed the course of history. The chain of events leading to this very moment should be all the proof you need. Lobbing insults at the creator and saying a human 'discovered' or 'invented' something in nature illuminates a certain arrogance. This is such a bizarre line of reasoning. I mean, technically you are right that the events of 2000 years ago caused the events of today, but only in the same sense that the events of a random day in August three years ago caused today. Does the fact that the presidential election in 2008 caused a specific person to be president today mean that the '08 election was some divine event? And this can just as easily be done the other way around: events of 1000 years before the crucifixion lead up to it, so those events must be special? I don't honestly know exactly where to begin responding to this. It comes across as a sideways version of that old "some of the smartest people/most influential artists in history were Christians" argument.
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Jul 12, 2016 19:32
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:My point was not to say one can't be a Christian without being homophobic, simply that you can't honestly argue that the Bible offers anything but condemnation on the subject of homosexuality. The "Disciple Jesus Loved" or the "Beloved Disciple" : Who is it? What is the nature of the relationship? How valid are the traditional explanations in light of what we know about how some groups heavily edited early scripture for their own political ends? In other words it's a strong possibility that Jesus was always sneaking off to... Be alone with Mary Be alone with one of his male disciples ... in the uh, bibilical sense.
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Jul 12, 2016 20:34
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BrandorKP posted:The "Disciple Jesus Loved" or the "Beloved Disciple" : Who is it? What is the nature of the relationship? How valid are the traditional explanations in light of what we know about how some groups heavily edited early scripture for their own political ends? Please. A fanfiction-level speculation that Jesus was gay with one of his disciples proves the Bible is pro-homosexuality? Again: GAINING WEIGHT... posted:you can't honestly argue that the Bible offers anything but condemnation on the subject of homosexuality.
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Jul 12, 2016 21:08
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McDowell posted:I'm not scrambling for anything, the responses to what I am trying to tell you don't surprise me at all. You have the right idea about how all religions are less than truth because churches are constructs of the human world. I am trying to direct you to other stepping stones on the path of Truth- which is a living, changing thing. I'd really appreciate it if you could explain how you know, or at least why you believe, these things.
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Jul 12, 2016 22:04
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Holy Jesus, can we just come right out and say that McDowell isn't prepared to actually post in this thread? He's just spouting spiritual platitudes that don't mean anything. It's pretty obvious he's never taken a skeptical look at his own beliefs.
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Jul 12, 2016 22:16
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Dragonshirt posted:Holy Jesus, can we just come right out and say that McDowell isn't prepared to actually post in this thread? He's just spouting spiritual platitudes that don't mean anything. It's pretty obvious he's never taken a skeptical look at his own beliefs. I don't really see a point in doing that, no.
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Jul 12, 2016 22:27
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Who What Now posted:I don't really see a point in doing that, no. Ok, fine. Fish in a barrel and whatnot. My god is the sun, and he has been very angry lately. Probably mad about the Sanders endorsement.
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Jul 12, 2016 22:41
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Yes? Obviously? That's why I said: Because religion isn't really a science, maybe..? There is no rigor required. You might want to take a look at a lot postmodern stuff. You know Christian Atheism is a thing? Zizek has a good thing on it. Eskaton fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 22:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I want to save humanity from death by any means possible. I don't trust your method to work, although I acknowledge the noble sentiment behind it. Hi, Sobornost / Fedorovist buddy.   
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Jul 12, 2016 23:12
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Please. A fanfiction-level speculation that Jesus was gay with one of his disciples proves the Bible is pro-homosexuality? Been a thing in Christianity going way back. It's dependant on how one interprets John. One can honestly make this argument and in the past it has been used to argue for "spiritual friendship" or "brother making" or "adelphopoiesis".
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Jul 12, 2016 23:15
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If Jesus had been gay you'd think he could have spared a second to mention that it's not cool to attack, kill, or oppress homosexuals.
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Jul 12, 2016 23:24
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