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Solemn Sloth posted:A neonazi has trashed Matthew Guy's(Victorian Liberal leader) electorate office Dude's famously wrong on just about every issue and is one of the dreaded property-developer-body-snatchers that the LNP has become lousy with, and he gets attacked over multiculturalism? What has he done or said in the past two years that didn't boil down to 'labor's wrong and bad because they're labor'? Seems so random.
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Jul 13, 2016 10:56
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Consider this: neonazis are extremely, incredibly, almost unbelievably stupid
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Jul 13, 2016 11:34
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But I mean how did get even get on the luftwaffe's radar, when I wouldn't even know Guy existed if The Age and The Hun didn't drag him into the sunlight every time the state government did anything at all?
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Jul 13, 2016 12:00
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Jumping monkey gently caress, is the ballot counting still going? I've actually thought about ways in which secure e-voting (with real-time tabulation) could be done with minimal vulnerability, but they are far too logical and will cost money that won't be funding tax breaks for rich people. edit: New avatar is not something I find sexy, but I will put up with it until I can scrape up the cash to change it to something I want.
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Jul 13, 2016 12:25
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ScreamingLlama posted:
If you do, someone will just change it back because it's obvious you got owned pretty bad over it.
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Jul 13, 2016 12:38
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ScreamingLlama posted:I've actually thought about ways in which secure e-voting (with real-time tabulation) could be done with minimal vulnerability, but they are far too logical and will cost money that won't be funding tax breaks for rich people. Care to share your thoughts on this? I find e-voting to be a very interesting topic.
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Jul 13, 2016 12:49
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All white, all punchable faces Frogfingers posted:But I mean how did get even get on the luftwaffe's radar, when I wouldn't even know Guy existed if The Age and The Hun didn't drag him into the sunlight every time the state government did anything at all?
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Jul 13, 2016 12:59
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https://twitter.com/mikebairdMP/status/753042860845338624 Burn.
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Jul 13, 2016 13:20
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AgentF posted:Care to share your thoughts on this? I find e-voting to be a very interesting topic. I just want to say first up that if you're so damned technologically illiterate that you can't even handle a touch screen, you are not long for this world and should probably emigrate to the US and find an Amish Ordnung to take you in. (Even that may not help, as apparently some Ordnungs are a lot more comfortable with modern tech than Amish are popularly portrayed.) If I can successfully teach my 77yo grandmother how to use a Steam account, surely Joe Blow can manage touchscreen voting. Now that that's out of the way: What I envision is not really internet voting, but scores of voting booths connected by a multiplexing VPN with MAC address exclusion. The only devices that will be authorized to connect to this electoral network will be the screens themselves, keeping intruders physically locked out as well as electronically. Each touchscreen will be either equipped with a smart card reader (think payWave or similar) or just require each voter to enter a voter ID number into the interface to sign in and vote. Each voter ID is unique and can be cross-checked with the AEC VPN servers in real time to ensure that each person cannot 1) be marked off without having cast their vote, 2) does not try to vote multiple times and 3) have their vote compromised or erased. Any tampering that occurs within the system would likely be done by biased scrutineers, in which case the scrutineers would be the problem, not the system. I thought of a way to address the problem of donkey voting and spoiled ballots, too: if you're one of those 'I think they're all wankers' voters, an option could be added to the e-ballots where you press "I don't know who to vote for" and be taken through a VoteCompass-style questionnaire where you specify your views on common issues and get a result on which candidate best reflects those views. There could even be an auto-vote option where the app says "Your views align best with MCSHIFTYPANTS, Crooked S. (LNP). Would you like your ballot to be filled out for you accordingly?" and pressing [YES] will mean your ballot will be filled out according to LNP preferences and submitted. Pressing [NO] would take you back to the ballot proper to be filled out manually.
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Jul 13, 2016 13:47
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You Am I posted:All white, all punchable faces Um 20% of their female attendees are asian. You just can't satisfy the pc police.
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Jul 13, 2016 13:47
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ScreamingLlama posted:What I envision is not really internet voting, but scores of voting booths connected by a multiplexing VPN with MAC address exclusion. The only devices that will be authorized to connect to this electoral network will be the screens themselves, keeping intruders physically locked out as well as electronically. Each touchscreen will be either equipped with a smart card reader (think payWave or similar) or just require each voter to enter a voter ID number into the interface to sign in and vote. Each voter ID is unique and can be cross-checked with the AEC VPN servers in real time to ensure that each person cannot 1) be marked off without having cast their vote, 2) does not try to vote multiple times and 3) have their vote compromised or erased. Any tampering that occurs within the system would likely be done by biased scrutineers, in which case the scrutineers would be the problem, not the system. MAC address spoofing is simple, voter anonymity is a good thing, plus requiring ID to vote is bad. Try again. Plus the cost of the whole shebang and the fact that any human made system will be crackable. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/12/lets-put-e-voting-where-it-belongs-on-the-trash-heap-of-bad-ideas NPR Journalizard fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 13:55
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Frogmanv2 posted:MAC address spoofing is simple, voter anonymity is a good thing, plus requiring ID to vote is bad. Came to post that link. Is Melbourne Ports still a three way race? There was that story a couple of days ago, but haven't heard anything since...
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Jul 13, 2016 14:11
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ScreamingLlama posted:What I envision is not really internet voting, but scores of voting booths connected by a multiplexing VPN with MAC address exclusion. The only devices that will be authorized to connect to this electoral network will be the screens themselves, keeping intruders physically locked out as well as electronically. Each touchscreen will be either equipped with a smart card reader (think payWave or similar) or just require each voter to enter a voter ID number into the interface to sign in and vote. Each voter ID is unique and can be cross-checked with the AEC VPN servers in real time to ensure that each person cannot 1) be marked off without having cast their vote, 2) does not try to vote multiple times and 3) have their vote compromised or erased. Any tampering that occurs within the system would likely be done by biased scrutineers, in which case the scrutineers would be the problem, not the system. Where are the votes stored and how are they transferred to the AEC? How is the software of the voting machine validated? How can one audit the correctness of the stored results while maintaining voter anonymity? How do you handle a voter claiming that the machine recorded their vote incorrectly, or claiming that they already voted while they claim that they haven't? Who would choose the questions to include in the questionnaire and their wording?
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Jul 13, 2016 14:24
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ScreamingLlama posted:Any tampering that occurs within the system would likely be done by biased scrutineers, in which case the scrutineers would be the problem, not the system. If the system is vulnerable to tampering, it's a problem with the system.
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Jul 13, 2016 14:30
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ScreamingLlama posted:I just want to say first up that if you're so damned technologically illiterate that you can't even handle a touch screen, you are not long for this world and should probably emigrate to the US and find an Amish Ordnung to take you in. (Even that may not help, as apparently some Ordnungs are a lot more comfortable with modern tech than Amish are popularly portrayed.) If I can successfully teach my 77yo grandmother how to use a Steam account, surely Joe Blow can manage touchscreen voting. What accommodations would there be for people that cannot effectively use touch screens? Would you still have physical postal votes? What if I actually don't want to vote for any party, am I still prevented from casting a blank ballot?
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Jul 13, 2016 14:34
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ScreamingLlama posted:I just want to say first up that if you're so damned technologically illiterate that you can't even handle a touch screen, you are not long for this world and should probably emigrate to the US and find an Amish Ordnung to take you in. (Even that may not help, as apparently some Ordnungs are a lot more comfortable with modern tech than Amish are popularly portrayed.) If I can successfully teach my 77yo grandmother how to use a Steam account, surely Joe Blow can manage touchscreen voting. lmfao And if this technological marvel breaks down or even merely just operates slowly on the election day?
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Jul 13, 2016 14:39
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What benefits does such a system offer over just using a pencil on some paper and putting it in a box? That's beyond THE SINGULARITY pipe dreams, I mean.
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Jul 13, 2016 14:40
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Milky Moor posted:What benefits does such a system offer over just using a pencil on some paper and putting it in a box? Presumably, speed of counting. So we're not stuck in a situation like we are now where it's been a week and a half since the election and we still don't know the exact results yet. Not like that's a major issue, though. Most of the time we get a workable answer not far from the truth on the night, it's only when things are really close that it takes a significant time. And in that case, I think you want time to be taken to be accurate anyway.
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Jul 13, 2016 14:44
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Milky Moor posted:What benefits does such a system offer over just using a pencil on some paper and putting it in a box? Not that I agree with Whispering Llama's proposal, but some the best STV systems require machine counting. E: although I guess that can be done with OCR stuff Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 14:45
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Screaming Llama does not disappoint. Well played AusPol for actually keeping your cool and slow playing the clueless spoon. That cheered me right the gently caress up.
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Jul 13, 2016 14:49
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ScreamingLlama posted:I just want to say first up that if you're so damned technologically illiterate that you can't even handle a touch screen, you are not long for this world and should probably emigrate to the US and find an Amish Ordnung to take you in. (Even that may not help, as apparently some Ordnungs are a lot more comfortable with modern tech than Amish are popularly portrayed.) If I can successfully teach my 77yo grandmother how to use a Steam account, surely Joe Blow can manage touchscreen voting. this is one of the worst takes on e voting i've ever seen
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Jul 13, 2016 14:50
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Also man I hope you meant to sayquote:There could even be an auto-vote option where the app says "Your views align best with MCSHIFTYPANTS, Crooked S. (LNP). Would you like your ballot to be filled out for you accordingly?" and pressing [YES] will mean your ballot will be filled out according to LNP preferences and you could review and submit it. because otherwise wow
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Jul 13, 2016 14:58
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bags being the guy who gets to write the vote compass lol
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Jul 13, 2016 15:04
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The only good e-voting system is one where when a person votes for a conservative party a trapdoor opens beneath them and they fall into a pit of fire.
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Jul 13, 2016 15:10
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AgentF posted:Where are the votes stored and how are they transferred to the AEC? How is the software of the voting machine validated? How can one audit the correctness of the stored results while maintaining voter anonymity? How do you handle a voter claiming that the machine recorded their vote incorrectly, or claiming that they already voted while they claim that they haven't? I was actually thinking about this the other day too and I came up with an idea, but it will be monumentally more expensive than what we have now. The obvious thing with this system is that it A) needs to be fault tolerant B) needs to be verifiable C) needs to be anonymous A is simpler, it must be an offline system that stands alone and can fall back to paper entry. B and C fight against each other so hard it's not funny, but my thoughts were to open up the entire database to the public after the election so that people can both see all other votes and their own but are unable to determine who submitted the other votes. To do this my thought would be to provide you a token of some sort when you go to vote, like a stack of pre printed cards with a barcode and some number that is basically your vote's ID so you can look it up later Once you have this you now need to make a way to verify that these cards weren't duplicated so you would need to take this number and some info from your entry on the roll and generate a hash (not sure how this bit will function offline, hash functions are hard on paper) for you to scan into the voting machine. Once you have voted you would get a receipt style printout of your vote, your voteId and your voter info hash - The printout allows joe public to verify their votes by plugging the numbers into a website and seeing that their votes are there - The hash function would be a publicly published algorithm so that you could recompute your hash later if you lost it without compromising your anonymity to the AEC - apart from the computation of the hash all of this could be done on paper ballots in the case of system failures Im sure there's a hole/exploit whatever in my plan and even if it would work I still think it's an awful idea, people just need to calm the gently caress down with their instant gratification.
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Jul 13, 2016 15:12
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ScreamingLlama posted:I just want to say first up that if you're so damned technologically illiterate that you can't even handle a touch screen, you are not long for this world and should probably emigrate to the US and find an Amish Ordnung to take you in. (Even that may not help, as apparently some Ordnungs are a lot more comfortable with modern tech than Amish are popularly portrayed.) If I can successfully teach my 77yo grandmother how to use a Steam account, surely Joe Blow can manage touchscreen voting. The current system needs some cardboard booths to be setup and could probably work in a complete blackout with no electricity and no internet access, and requires polling workers to have zero IT skills. How many polling places are there on election day? It seems crazy to think that all those booths will become screens and to what benefit? From getting in the queue to leaving for me was half an hour I don't think it would be faster with a computer. And technical issues would be a disaster to deal with on the day. Voter Id number? The best thing about the current setup is when you go to vote you don't need to bring anything and you only need to know your full name and address. Do you think each kiosk should print hard copy receipts after each vote into a locked box in the base of the machine in case of data loss? If so should those receipts be thermal which like we all know fade or should they require ink so they last longer? Will the polling workers have to constantly change rolls and ink all day? The more you think about the mechanics of it the less appealing it sounds also they have to ship these Kiosks around the country then store them somewhere between elections then make sure they work before shipping them out the next election. I do not think that having a questionnaire that ends with who you should vote for in the booth is a good idea either, the loser of the election will all ways blame bias in the wording of the questions for why they lost. What problem does Electronic Voting solve in your opinion? is it Faster counting? Most elections we know the result on the day.
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Jul 13, 2016 15:34
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e voting will always be a bad idea because the two "good" reasons you'd do it, voting from home or doing away with paper votes, won't happen all the bad ideas can get going easily though
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Jul 13, 2016 15:35
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Wouldn't the environmental impact of e-voting be way higher than paper anyway?
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Jul 13, 2016 16:05
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Wouldn't the environmental impact of e-voting be way higher than paper anyway? given that all e voting solutions that aren't total garbage require paper too, yes
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Jul 13, 2016 16:15
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I sympathize with ScreamingLlama"s intentions but as the many replies indicate, the error is to mistake the problem of e-voting as one of technology when the real problem is one of protocols. The current system evolved its protocols over time and the limited technology actually adds to its success as well as giving the protocols time to mature and learn from mistakes. E-voting is thus a doubled problem of new technology requiring new protocols as well as needing to satisfy existing ones. I have wondered why machine-readable voting forms can't be developed though as we already have the technology in use in some government departments but seeing that the ATO has moved to online filing might indicate that it has problems, can anyone comment on that tech?
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Jul 13, 2016 18:18
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I e-voted in an ACT Election. An electoral officer checked you off the roll and handed you a barcode on a card that was not linked to you, it was from a stack of random cards. You swiped the card at a machine and filled in your vote using a touchscreen. The machine stored the vote and at the end of the day the results were extracted locally. No network connection at all. Apparently there was an audit printout in the machine so it could be checked for recounts. The problem isnt voting on the day, results from booths are generally known on election night. The problem is postal voting, which wont ever be solved securely by electronic voting. You need to simultaneously solve problems of authenticating the voter and keeping the vote anonymous; preventing fraud and coercion; access for people without a computer or online connection; convincing votenerds and IT sperglords that all of the above has been met. Yeah it's annoying that we're still waiting on final results but it's rare that it happens and isn't significantly impacting on the operation of government anymore than an 8 week campaign did.
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Jul 13, 2016 21:54
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StealthBus posted:No luck whatsoever. I've got a colleague going through a faux redundancy thingo now and the ASU are offering limited support even though she wasn't a member prior, even ever. Like they probably won't shell out for a lawyer at fair work, but they're sending representatives to every meeting so far to support and argue and call the org on their bullshit around the position description changes.
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Jul 13, 2016 22:16
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Capt.Whorebags posted:The problem isnt voting on the day, results from booths are generally known on election night. The problem is postal voting, which wont ever be solved securely by electronic voting. You need to simultaneously solve problems of authenticating the voter and keeping the vote anonymous; preventing fraud and coercion; access for people without a computer or online connection; convincing votenerds and IT sperglords that all of the above has been met. Electronic voting is a hideously complex and expensive solution to a range of problems that don't actually exist, but it's probably worth noting postal voting as is doesn't really have many safeguards against fraud and coercion as I understand the process. I guess the relatively low numbers keep the impact down.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:05
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Australia doesn't have any where near the infrastructure to be able to stream video to most places, let alone handle millions of voting data in one day. Servers will crash, network connections will go down, death will be certain. Turnbull is just trying to find ways to lay blame for the Liberals horrible election result. Waiting for votes to be counted should not make Turnbull any less responsible for the disaster he brought to his party. He had his name slapped on all advertising material in that fake lovely logo. I can't wait for the knives to be sharpen as he realises what a shitfest the senate is going to be, and his negotiation skills fail him. That said, I can't see anyone else in the Liberal Party at the moment who could negotiate out of a paper bag, let alone bills through the senate. If anything, the Young Liberals conference has shown us the next generation of FYGMers haven't got the skills either
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Jul 13, 2016 23:33
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Solemn Sloth posted:A neonazi has trashed Matthew Guy's(Victorian Liberal leader) electorate office You're not meant to poo poo where you eat.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:40
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Beetphyxious posted:You're not meant to poo poo where you eat. Is that why I wasn't invited to the melbgoon burg lunch  I told you that was a one time thing
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Jul 13, 2016 23:44
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Evoting is technology for technologies sake. So it takes a while for results to be collected, big whoop. The results are easily recountable, and the process allows transparency all along the way while maintaining anonymity of your vote.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:44
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With the exception of 2010 (where a new government wasn't getting formed that night anyway due to the negotiations needed, and the current one, when was the last time we didn't have a result by 9pm anyway? I don't recall one since 1990. Also, is this now the defacto July thread?
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Jul 14, 2016 00:03
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Oh yeah, the election's been called, we should probably have a new thread. Llama, starting your proposal off with a rant about the technologically illiterate just makes you look like a complete arsehole, you know that right? While for folks our age technology is commonplace a person in their 80s or 90s was our age before computers could fit in a normal sized room. The barrier for entry with a pencil and a piece of paper is a lot lower than a touch screen or other input devices.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:30
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The thread will continue until death is certain.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:31
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