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I never really understood why Android is so fragmented, but I'm sure I'm just not fully understanding the problem. Like, (almost) every single Linux distro has a package manager and releases software and security updates reasonably regularly. Most of the time, as far as I know, the people behind the scenes for these distros don't have anywhere near the same resources as Google. Why aren't updates managed similarly for Android? I'm not saying have a full on package management system like apt, dnf, or pacman for Android, but why wouldn't something like that be possible? Are the hardware variations between phones just too big? Wouldn't variations be even greater on desktops and laptops? What am I missing?
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Jul 12, 2016 19:01
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Mogomra posted:Are the hardware variations between phones just too big? Wouldn't variations be even greater on desktops and laptops? What am I missing?
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Jul 12, 2016 19:13
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Endless Mike posted:Yes. Yes but not really. Drivers for phone hardware aren't standardized and are rarely open and available and each Android version has to be custom-tailored to the specific hardware. I can understand this I guess, but did hardware manufacturers just not learn anything from a few decades of personal computer hardware or something? Making everything smaller and cheaper is probably more important than standardization for phones I suppose.
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Jul 12, 2016 19:27
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Mogomra posted:What am I missing?
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Jul 12, 2016 19:43
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EDIT: Also that^^^^^ Without Google literally mandating a specific set of hardware (which would completely ruin Android's advantages and remove any desire for OEMs to make phones), it'll be extraordinarily difficult to do what you're suggesting while maintaining decent performance. Note that mandating a specific set of hardware is precisely what they did with the Android One program.
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Jul 12, 2016 19:46
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:You're looking for technical reasons when the answer is simple: there is no financial incentive for the OEMs. Yeah sure Google gets a PR black eye when mainstream media outlets run stories about "X% of Android devices vulnerable to some new hack" but most consumers obviously don't give a poo poo. As long as Instagram, Snapchat, and now Pokémon Go work they're happy. Otherwise they just go to Best Buy and renew their contract for a new phone. I don't really understand this part I guess. How do people keep buying laptops with Windows and how does Windows Update keep working for everyone? Why can't Google do that? A lot of laptop/desktop manufacturers made or still make Android phones don't they?
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Jul 12, 2016 20:08
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There are standards for 'what makes a PC' that go back to the 1980s, and a lot of effort is put into making sure Microsoft Windows works with ancient software. The modern smartphone market, by comparison, is barely a decade old, and subject to very different economic and social conditions.
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Jul 12, 2016 20:15
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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Because carries have to approve any updates sent to phones or face the wrath of customers when their phone breaks. Apple has a special exception to this, thus can update phones directly without carrier bullshit.
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Jul 12, 2016 20:16
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Mogomra posted:I don't really understand this part I guess. How do people keep buying laptops with Windows and how does Windows Update keep working for everyone? Why can't Google do that? Google generates money from Android in different ways than Microsoft generates money from Windows which in turn generates money in different ways than Apple from iOS. You can't directly compare their support systems. I realize an easy counterargument to that is "why should consumers care how they make money? We should only care about the experience" but it sure seems to me like most don't care anyway. Star War Sex Parrot fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 12, 2016 |
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Jul 12, 2016 20:19
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:I realize an easy counterargument to that is "why should consumers care how they make money? We should only care about the experience" but it sure seems to me like most don't care anyway. Uthor posted:Apple has a special exception to this, thus can update phones directly without carrier bullshit.
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Jul 12, 2016 21:36
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Mogomra posted:What is the deal there? Does Apple just have ~*Business Magic*~ or was it that they were in on the ground floor of the whole smartphone explosion?
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Jul 12, 2016 21:52
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Mogomra posted:or was it that they were in on the ground floor of the whole smartphone explosion? Yeah, this. The reason they were AT&T only at first was because they were the only carrier that would make the "no carrier bs updates, no carrier apps" deal. Once the iPhone hit it big, they could let the demand leverage the other carriers into the same deal. Edit: I guess Cingular, not AT&T.
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Jul 12, 2016 21:52
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Got my moto g4 in today, and I'm always super paranoid about damaging the screen on smartphones. Are there any notable recommendations on screen protectors or cases with them built in? Every time I've tried to use one so far on past phones they've always either been near impossible to keep from having bubbles, or the glass ones would come with a chip or crack already in them. EDIT: Actually a good case that has a foldover cover would probably work just as well. Mostly concerned about it being scratched when in my pocket or in a gym locker than I am about it being scratched when using it. Evrart Claire fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 00:16
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I rolled my 6P back to M last night and it didn't even show it as a restore from option.  Sir Unimaginative posted:That's the thing, the Moto X 2014 was a goddamn Google flagship. It's like they're trying to disavow it. I tried to get right, no root, locked bootloader, but apparently I never can be. ilkhan fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 00:41
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Mogomra posted:I never really understood why Android is so fragmented, but I'm sure I'm just not fully understanding the problem. Compare that to the number of iOS devices and I think you are off to a good start with understanding the fragmentation. I'm certain it's more complicated/intricate than this, but Android must be a nightmare to develop for, given this. The SDK probably makes it easier now, but the past must have been a disaster.
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Jul 13, 2016 01:08
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hotsauce posted:May have something to do with the fact that there are 24,000 unique Android devices in the world. https://techcrunch.com/2012/05/11/this-is-what-developing-for-android-looks-like/
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Jul 13, 2016 01:09
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First, it's the OEMs like Samsung that have to take up the update burden. It's not Google since they aren't making ROMs for all devices. So, no matter what, Google can't do much about the update situation without running the risk of angering their OEMs by dictating a uniform design. Second, any device manufacturer could very easily say "gently caress the carrier, we aren't installing poo poo and we'll push updates when we please." The only issue is they don't want to do that because they then give up shelf space in the carrier store and sweet sweet advertising dollars that the carrier throws their way. Carriers also accept all the risk in financing user's phones. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. There's no reason to give up all that stuff to improve the user experience. Samsung knows if they rebelled, ATT or Verizon would then start pushing LG or HTC heavily and remove all galaxy devices from the shelves. Overnight, Samsung would lose a huge market presence, relying on Amazon or Best Buy to sell their phones full price. It's no accident that the Moto Z dropped CDMA support from last year's Moto X. Verizon offered them a buttload of money to make an exclusive branded device and they likely mandated that they couldn't compete with it with an unlocked device. Apple is completely different. First, they approach their development process a bit different. It's not that Apple software doesn't undergo carrier testing and feedback, it's just that it gets prioritized and front loaded in the process. Second, there's no alternative iOS device to purchase. They can afford to tell the carriers "get this poo poo tested on our rollout schedule, it's not like you can turn to a different iOS manufacturer." One thing that would improve things GREATLY is put a clearer line between hardware and service sales. You don't go to Comcast to pick out your TV when you get service (as much as Comcast would love that) and phone companies long ago were forced to do away with the whole "renting a phone" thing for landlines. Enjoy this article from 1983 https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...8-e1e2bf3b67b2/ Something similar needs to happen with the carriers. The FCC should mandate that every phone sold in the US market must work on every major carrier. We have the technology now to do that. Every phone should be portable. There should also be a mandated separation of service and phone sales in carrier stores. Someone should sell you service and hand you a SIM. You can then go look at what phones are available. This separation needs to extend to the backend of the business as well. Phone sales should operated as a separate retail entity with distinct financials from the service line, essentially spun off. That way, the stores have to operate on a level playing field compared to other retail entities instead of using funding from the massive profits of the service line of business to dictate the hardware market and exert control.
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Jul 13, 2016 01:36
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hotsauce posted:May have something to do with the fact that there are 24,000 unique Android devices in the world. It's actually a lot nicer than iOS most of the time. There are special snowflake scenarios typically involving Samsung loving around with how Android works, but usually not so bad.
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Jul 13, 2016 01:38
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bull3964 posted:First, it's the OEMs like Samsung that have to take up the update burden. It's not Google since they aren't making ROMs for all devices. So, no matter what, Google can't do much about the update situation without running the risk of angering their OEMs by dictating a uniform design. Oh, I agree. The burden is on OEMs. Google puts out the base OS and says "here ya go everyone!" Then the fuckery begins, leading to real (or perceived) fragmentation. People get confused, pissy and frustrated that their phone's security is ancient. People get mad that they are on old software. People get mad about a lot of things, some just give up an get an iPhone. All of this burden lies on OEMs and Carriers, not really Google. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it. Fragmentation with Android will almost always be this way because so many companies have their hands in the AOSP cookie jar. I don't pretend to be a super knowledgable person about any of this, but it's how the situation looks from my perspective. Guess the easiest way to show myself out is to say "just get a Nexus or an iPhone" or surrender your rights to complain about anything.
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Jul 13, 2016 02:03
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Is there anything like Good Lock's 'keep' notification system where you can swipe notifications for later, but without the actual lock screen part?
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Jul 13, 2016 04:05
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hotsauce posted:May have something to do with the fact that there are 24,000 unique Android devices in the world. I'm aware of that, but I was more interested in why the methods of keeping personal computers up to date aren't acceptable or applicable for Android devices. It was all discussed above anyway. Besides that, there's gotta be many many more unique personal computers than Android devices. Right? But yeah, it's not really about that I guess.
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Jul 13, 2016 04:26
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poo poo, my 5X slipped out of my hand when I grabbed it from table, fell maybe 20 cm and screen shattered completely. Glass screen protector unharmed... Anyway, digging out my old 1st gen Moto G made me realize I really miss smaller phone and how goddamn huge 5X actually is. Other than Sony compacts what else is there worth using of smaller phones? Pretty much has to have amazing camera like 5X since I got so used to it.
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Jul 13, 2016 05:34
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Got my Moto G Plus today - the fingerprint reader is wicked fast, the camera and screen are nice. I like this phone a lot.
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Jul 13, 2016 06:21
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Mogomra posted:I'm aware of that, but I was more interested in why the methods of keeping personal computers up to date aren't acceptable or applicable for Android devices. It was all discussed above anyway. One thing I didn't see discussed above was the fact that "fragmentation" isn't as much of a problem now as it was, say, three years ago. The way Android used to work is that there was a lot of the framework and stuff in Android itself and that got updated with the Android version. The idea was that obviously OEMs and carriers would act in good faith and work to make sure users weren't on old Android versions a year into their phone. This broke down for the obvious monetary reasons which are that OEMs have no incentive to provide the users updates as that's just pouring development time and money into devices they've already sold and carriers have no incentive to push them out because it's going to increase support costs. For this and other reasons Google has moved more and more of what used to be in AOSP to Google Play Services and separate apps. A good example of this would be the Webview which is now an app in the Play Store so when there's a web vulnerability they just push an update to that app and all devices which pass the Compatibility Test Suite and ship with Google services are updated. There are still things that can't be patched with apps and Google Play Services updates but nothing like it used to be. Best of all, updates to Google Play Services can't be blocked or seen by the user and occur silently to every signed in device so you don't have the problem of idiots not keeping things up to date on purpose. There is a cost to this, of course, and that's that AOSP is now less useful for a company choosing to forgo Google services because more and more vital parts of it are deprecated in the open sourced part and are proprietary and therefore subject to Google's control. That means devices shipping without Play Services in the third world are super duper vulnerable because OEMs would have to be backpatching all the poo poo that Google fixes on Play Store devices (and they are not doing that) but no one cares about those people anyway (OEMs and carriers for the reasons detailed above, and Google because Google isn't on these devices, and the governments because they're oppressive and don't want secure platforms either). On top of all of that, you've now got this tenuous agreement between OEMs, carriers, and Google where Google makes monthly security patches to things that aren't updatable via Play Store or Play Services and those updates are only for those security vulnerabilities. OEMs agree to make them available for their devices and carriers agree to fast track their approval which is working reasonably well. Devices now aren't years behind but instead are maybe only months behind (though some OEMs are worse than others). So what this all means is maybe you're behind on Android versions and are missing some new features and APIs but for the most part the downsides of fragmentation have been mitigated. Most users don't care about what's in the latest Android version anyway and users shouldn't have to care about security at all if their OEM is competent. Does that answer your question?
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Jul 13, 2016 06:32
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What is the best dual sim phone out there?
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Jul 13, 2016 14:13
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kiwid posted:What is the best dual sim phone out there? Not an answer, but your avatar is syncing almost perfectly with the song I'm listening to. Apothecaries' Weight by Kyuss
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Jul 13, 2016 15:26
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Holy poo poo, I really hope the new Nexuses have 3GB+ RAM. The 5X is a great phone except for the fact that sometimes it can barely keep two apps in memory. It's frustrating switching to a 2-factor app and then immediately back to Chrome, only for Chrome to reload the page which puts me back to the username/password screen 
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Jul 13, 2016 15:40
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Yeah, I've noticed that on my 2014 X, particularly with browsers (I have the same problem with Firefox, for instance). It's really loving annoying.
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Jul 13, 2016 16:00
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LastInLine posted:One thing I didn't see discussed above was the fact that "fragmentation" isn't as much of a problem now as it was, say, three years ago. It certainly does shed some light on why my mostly incoherent idea for updates don't necessarily translate to Android. Thanks for the thorough write up!
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Jul 13, 2016 16:11
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IAmKale posted:Holy poo poo, I really hope the new Nexuses have 3GB+ RAM. The 5X is a great phone except for the fact that sometimes it can barely keep two apps in memory. It's frustrating switching to a 2-factor app and then immediately back to Chrome, only for Chrome to reload the page which puts me back to the username/password screen 4GB according to Android Police's claimed spec leaks.
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Jul 13, 2016 16:15
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It all the spec leaks are real, it does seem Google has their poo poo together for the new Nexus. Two handsets, both exactly the same internal specs, they look exactly the same on the outside, just one is bigger than the other. The size only affects battery capacity and screen resolution. I do think 5" and 5.5" are at little too close though. It should have really been 4.7" and 5.5" or 5" and 5.7". One thing I haven't seen but would be the top of my whishlist would be the ditching of eMMC for UFS. IO performance is one place where Android gets spanked by Apple and an upgrade here would be a huge boon in responsiveness.
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Jul 13, 2016 17:01
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IAmKale posted:Holy poo poo, I really hope the new Nexuses have 3GB+ RAM. The 5X is a great phone except for the fact that sometimes it can barely keep two apps in memory. It's frustrating switching to a 2-factor app and then immediately back to Chrome, only for Chrome to reload the page which puts me back to the username/password screen They'll each have 4GB. Marlin and Sailfish.
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Jul 13, 2016 17:10
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Blitter posted:Ebay.co.uk has replacement screen/digitizers for 14-20£ I paid 40$ (cdn) for mine cheap replacement a year or so ago, and while a little fiddly, it wasn't hard. Check ifixit for a guide if you are curious, and want to postpone till the next release cycle. I think that actually seems like the best suggestion. Just need to hope my fat fingers don't destroy everything. Well now I've got something to keep me occupied on Sunday at least.
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Jul 13, 2016 19:36
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Just got the OTA July Security update on my Nexus 6p which dropped.... a week ago? If that's how fast Google is pushing it to Nexus I wonder what the carriers are doing...
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Jul 13, 2016 21:20
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Scaramouche posted:Just got the OTA July Security update on my Nexus 6p which dropped.... a week ago? If that's how fast Google is pushing it to Nexus I wonder what the carriers are doing... It's a phased rollout; same as it ever was.
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Jul 13, 2016 21:24
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LastInLine posted:They'll each have 4GB. Marlin and Sailfish. God I need the 5" one now
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Jul 13, 2016 23:23
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bull3964 posted:It all the spec leaks are real, it does seem Google has their poo poo together for the new Nexus. Two handsets, both exactly the same internal specs, they look exactly the same on the outside, just one is bigger than the other. The size only affects battery capacity and screen resolution.
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Jul 13, 2016 23:35
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Hello android goons! So, the other day my Nexus 5 finally decided it didn't want to wake up anymore. I have been having the sticking power button problem intermittently throughout the year, but even the old "phone on desk" fix is not pulling it out of its repeated reboot cycle. I am looking for a recommendation. A number of people are telling me to go with the S7 Edge, but others are telling me to go HTC 10 or Nexus 5x. I've done some research on the phones and I am somewhat leaning towards the 5x, it would be my plan to get the new Nexus phones that will be releasing down the line. Am I being misguided? or is there another phone I should be looking at.
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Jul 14, 2016 00:37
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bull3964 posted:It all the spec leaks are real, it does seem Google has their poo poo together for the new Nexus. Two handsets, both exactly the same internal specs, they look exactly the same on the outside, just one is bigger than the other. The size only affects battery capacity and screen resolution. Does the 820/821 support UFS? Yes, it does. carticket fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 00:41
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Commandante posted:Hello android goons! If you like the Nexus line, and are planning to buy the next generation in 4 months, a 5X would be the best choice to tide you over. It will also make for a nice backup phone.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:58
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