Auspol June/Election - hang parliament - The Something Awful Forums

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open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

quote:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...12a30dc35f7b81d
Land deals have been struck for an ambitious $200 billion private sector plan for high-speed rail �offering two-hour trips between Melbourne and Sydney, which is being �aggressively� pursued and presented to state and federal governments for support.

Work on the 40-year nation-building infrastructure project, which would create eight new �regional cities, could begin within five years if it wins support from three tiers of government and �affected communities. The private company behind the ambitious plan, Consolidated Land and Rail Australia (CLARA), has met Malcolm Turnbull and the Victorian and NSW governments to seek support for the project, which it claims will not require any capital investment from taxpayers.

If the world�s fastest trains were used for the rail line, the travel time for the 915km route would be as little as 110 minutes.

The multi-billion-dollar project is being heralded as one of the world�s largest ever high-speed rail infrastructure projects, with the potential to ease pressure on �Sydney and Melbourne as their populations grow over coming decades.

CLARA co-founder and chairman Nick Cleary said the project could be funded through the �value capture� of land that would be transformed from mostly �farming land to new city �developments.

Under the value-capture model, land bought for $1000 a lot could be sold for housing for up to $150,000, allowing the profit margin to developers to fund the rail and civil infrastructure needed.

�We are a decentralisation program,� Mr Cleary said ahead of the project�s official launch in Melbourne today.

�The train allows for the cities to be viable, and the cities make the train viable � they are �symbiotic.

�We don�t anticipate asking any level of government for a �direct financial injection; what we really need is the assistance to plan out these communities to secure the corridors of the rail which state governments have to do.

�We are under no illusions as to how difficult it is, and we are buoyed by the fact that both commonwealth and state government are open to enter into co-�ordinated discussions.�

The new city sites will be greenfield developments that are at most 15km away from existing �regional towns, with land at each of the eight target sites already �secured.

The company has been negotiating with property owners for the past 12 months, and has �secured legal rights over 40 per cent of the land needed for the �development, more than 16,000 hectares, through option agreements signed with about 70 land owners.

�They are contracts to purchase on condition that we pass the regulatory milestones that we need, which is basically having a mandate from the state government in return for us to provide the rail and civil infrastructure,� Mr Cleary said.

�They (the new cities) will be stand-alone, sustainable, smart and designed from the internet up.�

The company also intends to fund the acquisition of the rail �corridor, estimated at $1.2bn, but the legal apparatus to do so rests with the states and could be done through compulsory acquisition.

The project has established a high-profile advisory board that includes former NSW premier Barry O�Farrell and former Victorian premier Steve Bracks, along with recently retired federal trade minister Andrew Robb.

American board members are also involved in guiding the project, including former US diplomat Niels Marquardt, former US �secretary of transportation Ray LaHood, former White House �fellow and City of Chicago chief �financial officer Lois Scott, and former Clinton advisers David Wilhelm and Mark Doyle.

Mr Bracks said that while there was public scepticism about the project, given previous failed �attempts at a high-speed rail link between the nation�s two largest cities, he believed the funding model being promoted by CLARA was a key difference that made the project viable.

�I understand the scepticism, but this is a different proposal,� the former premier said.

�It is as much about regional development, and if you like, uplift in land value capture as part of that. It is a regional development project as much as it is a rail project. I think it deserves consideration because the public benefit would be enormous.�

Mr O�Farrell said that past proposals had failed because of unrealistic demands on the public purse.

�What excites me is rather than it being a thought bubble from federal or state governments it is coming directly from the private sector, and the bald fact is that only the private sector can deliver and pay for a project of this size,� the former NSW premier said.

�And secondly they are being upfront about how it will be paid for which essentially is about the development of regional cities.�

Phase one of the project would be focused on the greater Shepparton area, north of Melbourne, with high-speed rail connecting the two to be operational in about a decade at a cost of about $13bn.

The company is confident that if the plan is supported through the regulatory period by government at all levels, it could be �turning dirt� by 2021.

A linked line from Sydney through to Melbourne could be operational by the 2040s, with the new cities being developed and populated through the 2020s and 2030s. But Mr Cleary said the government needed to help push the project before urban sprawl threatened to make the acquisition of the rail corridor too �difficult.

�One of the reasons we are �acting now is so that the corridor doesn�t get lost to further urban sprawl,�� he said.

�Now is a very, very defined window of opportunity to get this off the ground. If we leave it now and come back in 10 years the �opportunity could be lost.�

The consortium met the Prime Minister in March, who is understood to be encouraging of the proposal.

It also met Victorian Treasurer Tim Pallas and NSW Premier Mike Baird in April.

�We have been invited to provide more details and there has been an openness to carry on further discussions,� Mr Cleary said.

�There are challenges; we don�t want to give the impression that we thought this was going to be easy. This is a big project and everybody needs to be hands on.

�This is a national discussion, it is a national decision about the next 50 years of our nation and we can�t allow sectional specific interest to play too large a role in any of this. There has to be balance reached, there has got to be compromise and we come to it with an open mind and good intentions.�

http://www.clara.com.au/

This has to be a scam, right?

# ? Jul 14, 2016 00:37

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:05

Gitro: May 29, 2013

Au Revoir Shosanna posted:

The thread will continue until death is certain.

Death is always certain

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:13

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

open24hours posted:

http://www.clara.com.au/

This has to be a scam, right?

The part where they buy land for $1000 and sell for $150000 is fanciful. Also how is it going to be a two hour train ride if it needs to stop off at 8+ stops between your destination. If you buy land at one of these new towns, you'll be stuck catching the non-express service which could add hours to your time.

Also the train line is 15km away from all of your regional customers.

Tokamak fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jul 14, 2016

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:23

norp: Jan 20, 2004; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil

It also sounds like they want the government to resume land at next to nothing to form the corridor.

How long is a flight from Syd/Melb anyway?

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:31

Starshark: Dec 22, 2005; Doctor Rope

norp posted:

It also sounds like they want the government to resume land at next to nothing to form the corridor.

How long is a flight from Syd/Melb anyway?

From memory it's ninety minutes, but the biggest pain is getting transport between the airport and the city, as well as picking up your luggage if you have any. So it ends up being a bit over two hours all up.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:33

Anidav: Feb 25, 2010; ahhh fuck its the rats again

They should just invent the tubes from futurama already.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:36

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

For them to do it in that time they'd need a ~500km/h train and an almost straight line between the two cities, so I'm guessing their plan relies on yet-to-be-developed train technology as well.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:37

CATTASTIC: Mar 31, 2010; ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

When does Denton merge with Helios?
That'd probably be a good time for e-voting.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:39

KennyTheFish: Jan 13, 2004

norp posted:

It also sounds like they want the government to resume land at next to nothing to form the corridor.

How long is a flight from Syd/Melb anyway?

if you include check in time, and the travel from Melbourne to Tullamarine, probably about 3 hours. If there was a stop out in western Sydney for this thing, would it make Badgerys creek unneeded?

If they include all the big stops on the route; Canberra, Wagga etc. then it is possible, and they actually have a lot of cross party support from the rumours I have heard.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 01:40

NPR Journalizard: Feb 14, 2008

Anidav posted:

They should just invent the tubes from futurama already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit

# ? Jul 14, 2016 02:12

wombat74: Sep 30, 2005; Corporate Fat Cat

But guys, guys, guys, guys... what about...

HYPERLOOP

# ? Jul 14, 2016 02:30

Firetrick: Aug 4, 2006

norp posted:

It also sounds like they want the government to resume land at next to nothing to form the corridor.

How long is a flight from Syd/Melb anyway?

Last night I was on the plane for 2.5 hours because Sydney closed a runway and we couldn't leave. Total time with delays was about 5 hours.

What the hell up with night works on the Tulla freeway in Melbourne? They literally close several kilometers and multiple lanes at a time, for seemingly no reason other than to divert traffic around a man in a stationary truck with a sign to change lanes. Not a single worker in sight, or any moving machinery. There were half a dozen instances of this between the airport and domain tunnel, it had traffic backed up almost the whole way. Its very typical to see this out there and the whole thing seems like a massive employment scam.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 02:50

Synthbuttrange: May 6, 2007

what if I need to post here while on the hyperloop?

hyperpoop

# ? Jul 14, 2016 02:54

freebooter: Jul 7, 2009

Australians must really loving love the idea of trains, because no matter how many studies we do proving that it would be an enormous waste of billions of dollars to shave 20 minutes off the travel time between Sydney and Melbourne CBDs, it's the idea that will simply not die.

edit - see also the insistence that Melbourne should have a railway line to the airport, even though we already have a very efficient and cheap 24/7 bus service that departs every 15 minutes.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:04

Cthulhu Dreams: Dec 11, 2010; If I pretend to be Cthulhu no one will know I'm a baseball robot.

freebooter posted:

Australians must really loving love the idea of trains, because no matter how many studies we do proving that it would be an enormous waste of billions of dollars to shave 20 minutes off the travel time between Sydney and Melbourne CBDs, it's the idea that will simply not die.

edit - see also the insistence that Melbourne should have a railway line to the airport, even though we already have a very efficient and cheap 24/7 bus service that departs every 15 minutes.

The airport + qantas is experience is poo poo. That route has on time performance that is a total and utter joke. I spent a year commuting canberra->sydney and sometimes it was often faster to drive, particularly if you were out in western sydney.

I suspect the continuing 'oh my god trains save me' is really 'the current situation is poo poo, please give me anything else, a train is something else, therefor we must have a train' but I have no evidence for that.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:11

freebooter: Jul 7, 2009

Then drive. We're not dropping $100 billion on a multi-year infrastructure project just because you don't like flying Qantas.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:14

Cthulhu Dreams: Dec 11, 2010; If I pretend to be Cthulhu no one will know I'm a baseball robot.

freebooter posted:

Then drive. We're not dropping $100 billion on a multi-year infrastructure project just because you don't like flying Qantas.

Yeah, I did. My point of disagreement/commentary is that you're saying 'Australians really love trains' but I think it's actually the classically illogical:

"We need to do something - > This is something -> We must do this"

decision process at work.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:17

NPR Journalizard: Feb 14, 2008

freebooter posted:

Australians must really loving love the idea of trains, because no matter how many studies we do proving that it would be an enormous waste of billions of dollars to shave 20 minutes off the travel time between Sydney and Melbourne CBDs, it's the idea that will simply not die.

edit - see also the insistence that Melbourne should have a railway line to the airport, even though we already have a very efficient and cheap 24/7 bus service that departs every 15 minutes.

What do you do with your luggage on the bus?

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:17

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

Don't worry, venture capitalists can save you from all that public spending.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:18

freebooter: Jul 7, 2009

Frogmanv2 posted:

What do you do with your luggage on the bus?

I'm talking about the Skybus, it has luggage racks.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:19

MysticalMachineGun: Apr 5, 2005

What's the emission difference between high speed rail and air flight? It might be better for the environment to take rail. It would also introduce more competition in that sector.

Costs would come in as well, high speed rail might be cheaper to run than air travel. I don't know, I'm just spitballing.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:24

wombat74: Sep 30, 2005; Corporate Fat Cat

freebooter posted:

I'm talking about the Skybus, it has luggage racks.

On the Sydney Airport train you get to take your bag with you in the carriage and piss off commuters if you happen to land during peak time

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:26

norp: Jan 20, 2004; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil

wombat74 posted:

On the Sydney Airport train you get to take your bag with you in the carriage and piss off commuters if you happen to land during peak time

See also: New York, Chicago, and soon Perth where the commuter lines are just extended to the airport
(I'm sure there are plenty of others but ny and Chicago I have personally used)

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:31

freebooter: Jul 7, 2009

MysticalMachineGun posted:

What's the emission difference between high speed rail and air flight? It might be better for the environment to take rail. It would also introduce more competition in that sector.

Costs would come in as well, high speed rail might be cheaper to run than air travel. I don't know, I'm just spitballing.

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2013/04/15/so-high-speed-rail-increases-carbon-emissions/

There have been dozens of studies done on this. The numbers don't stack up, they're never going to stack up. HSR is good for small countries with dense populations (France, England, Japan), not for huge countries with low population densities. It's more feasible to talk about, say, a Newcastle-Sydney HSR or a Ballarat-Melbourne HSR, but it's very telling that every time this is discussed in Australia it's through the lens of a Sydney-Melbourne bullet train.

People just don't like flying and they prefer the idea of taking a train. Which is fine, I get that, but that's not what we base policy on.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:35

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

Even a Western Sydney - Sydney one would be a good start.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:38

xPanda: Feb 6, 2003; Was that me or the door?

This CLARA lot seem to be making Decentralisation part of their plan, which, if successful, ought to make the route more 'people dense' and might ameliorate that concern.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:47

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

Canberra - Queanbeyan HSR.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:48

wombat74: Sep 30, 2005; Corporate Fat Cat

norp posted:

See also: New York, Chicago, and soon Perth where the commuter lines are just extended to the airport
(I'm sure there are plenty of others but ny and Chicago I have personally used)

Heathrow too if you're a tightarse like me and catch the tube instead of the high speed rail thingy they have

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:48

open24hours: Jan 7, 2001

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Canberra - Queanbeyan HSR.

I heard Mike Kelly say they were going to look into putting more trains in between Canberra and Bungendore. Shame they didn't win the election.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:53

G-Spot Run: Jun 28, 2005

TheMightyHandful posted:

Came to post that link.

Is Melbourne Ports still a three way race? There was that story a couple of days ago, but haven't heard anything since...

I'm standing by poo poo stirring. I would have expected those stories to be reflected in the updated counts that evening but, as of last night's update, there is still no indication of it. Meanwhile, it's in both Green and LNP interests to make some news of Danby being an unpopular shitheel (true!) but you need a hook for clicks these days.

Danby has maintained (and possibly slightly increased by a few hundred votes) his 2k first preference lead over the Greens candidate. There is still a decent pile of votes to be counted in prepoll, postal and provisional, but despite counting few thousand votes since the 'story' broke the margin between them hasn't shifted, so I wouldn't expect it to start shifting now.

http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseDivisionPage-20499-230.htm

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:55

Cartoon: Jun 20, 2008; poop

Canberra - Sun bullet train and if that's too expensive or impracticable we can just borrow some bullets from Duntroon.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 03:57

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

open24hours posted:

For them to do it in that time they'd need a ~500km/h train and an almost straight line between the two cities, so I'm guessing their plan relies on yet-to-be-developed train technology as well.

Also I wonder where they will build the Sydney and Melbourne terminals. Even if it was capable of using the suburban rail line, you'll add 30+ minutes at each end traversing it. But if you have catch a train to Campbelltown first, that would add almost an hour of travel.

The problem is that the train will almost certainly be slower than plane+travel+boarding. If they can from CBD to CBD in four hours without changing trains, then it might be competitive. But this is a private company trying to do things on the cheap and is already introducing inefficiencies, so good luck.

freebooter posted:

Australians must really loving love the idea of trains, because no matter how many studies we do proving that it would be an enormous waste of billions of dollars to shave 20 minutes off the travel time between Sydney and Melbourne CBDs, it's the idea that will simply not die.

We like trains because our lives would be a living nightmare if they weren't as developed as they currently are. They are quite effective for our population size. Just from eyeballing statistics I would place them in the top third of rail networks in terms of efficiency.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:02

Pwnstar: Dec 9, 2007; Who wants some waffles?

Bring on the hostile takeover of Uber by self driving Google cars please.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:06

Negative Entropy: Nov 30, 2009

having recently travelled on the Sydney to Canberra train the personal space is larger and I would say people loving hate being crammed into a seat 50cm².
A train offers larger personal space. Also the scenery is nice.

Trains can run on renewable electricity while planes use kerosene which will get more expensive as light crude oil becomes rarer because, face it, we are past peak oil production.

The mantra "without trucks Australia stops" is galling to some with transportation of goods resting in the hands of trucker unions and rail freight has enormous carrying capacity and cost per unit is cheaper, add speed and the whole thing sounds even better.

airports are crowded and delays are routinely experienced but expanding airports is met with citizen hostility because people are loving entitled idiots who bought next to an airport but don't want to hear planes.
also The Castle features an Australian urban hero fighting eminent domain for an airport expansion.

Australians have also probably experienced high speed rail in other countries like Japan, Taiwan, China and most of Europe while travelling and have likely had a very positive experience. Media from these countries also talks up HSR and makes it sound like an attractive solution for long distance travel.

aircraft crashes make big news but train derailments don't. Ergo rail sounds safer.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:11

Negative Entropy: Nov 30, 2009

don't ask why $200bn on HSR linking three cities is seen as good but $160bn to build an NBN so people can telepresence is wasteful.

either way. Turnbull reckons he has a mandate by winning the election by a hairs breadth.
http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politic...713-gq4td5.html

they continue to misuse the word mandate.

don't let them.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:15

Anidav: Feb 25, 2010; ahhh fuck its the rats again

He has a mandate to get backstabbed.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:16

norp: Jan 20, 2004; TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

let's invade New Zealand, they have oil

Kommando posted:

aircraft crashes make big news but train derailments don't. Ergo rail sounds safer.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36774059

Less than a day ago, but a train crash has the advantage of not being from 3km off the ground.
Imagine the death toll from a head on collision of 2 jumbos....

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:19

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

quote:

"That was the reason you all endured an eight-week campaign," he told reporters. "That's what the double dissolution was all about and the same applies of course to the plebiscite."

He presumes a lot in this statement, and one would think the way Liberal haemorrhaged votes to minor parties and Labor would indicate anything other than a mandate for their policies. I'm sure he's in for a bit of a shock when he actually tries to get something done through the Senate.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:26

G-Spot Run: Jun 28, 2005

The nice thing about planes is they don't need to have great swathes of specialised track built and maintained for them.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:36

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:05

Mad Katter: Aug 23, 2010; STOP THE BATS

Airports are awful, airlines are awful, sitting on an aeroplane is awful, and getting to/from the airport is a pain in the rear end.

# ? Jul 14, 2016 04:39

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