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Tatum Girlparts posted:But then how is this any different than the whole 'well I'm colorblind, and you know talking about race just makes racial issues worse, aren't we all just Americans'? Like, the problem I have with a lot of this is suddenly a conversation on an 'identity' issue becomes an either-or thing. This is exactly what I'm saying shouldn't happen. And addressing the rest of your post, the argument is that currently things don't work for a significant minority and if we don't change course soon things are going to get really, really bad. I honestly believe that. We have to work at a macro level because at a macro level is where things are falling apart. At the same time, no one's going to say we shouldn't help minority groups (edit: This is a figure of speech. There are absolutely people that will say this and we should pay them no mind). I understand the idea behind "Let's help our homeless LGBTQ friends," and I also understand the argument against it (though I do fall on the argument for). I think you may have misunderstood what I was talking about. There should be specialized advocacy groups, there should be specialized charities and organs within government. There should also be generalized organizations. I'm not comfortable with a government or a society where anyone falls through the cracks, and we should work tirelessly for a more perfect union. NumberLast has issued a correction as of 03:12 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 03:09
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Neo-Liberals have been desperately trying to claim the Progressive and Leftist mantle while not actually being either for years just to get votes. The legislation they pass and their administrations have always been derived on their corporate-first values. They vaguely pay lip service to Progressive and Leftist causes and they almost always gently caress up any implementation of actual good ideas that come from the left out of an interest to ~compromise~ with the opposition (either within the Democratic Party itself or from Republicans) that has no intentions of negotiating in good faith. Neo-Liberals do this in a misguided and naive desire to appear reasonable and mature. Instead, all they really accomplish is fattening their campaign warchests and loving over poor people and minorities in the process. To pretend that the Democratic Party is largely anything but a corrupt, cheap imitation of actual Progressivism or Socialism or Leftism of any kind is simply a big fat loving joke. They haven't been representative of Progressives or the Left in decades. It's extremely unlikely they ever will be again as long as they continue to drag the party to the right.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:12
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Pinterest Mom posted:We can talk about both class and identity issues! Wait, you both fundamentally misunderstood my point? I must have hosed up explaining it... Pinterest Mom posted:People on my side of the argument are saying class and identity, not class or identity. That's what people on my side of the argument are saying.  Okay, this was all a huge misunderstanding! Let's go out and institute a series of reforms that...Oh... Oh...
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Jul 14, 2016 03:13
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Personally, I think identity politics and class politics are very intertwined and it'd be really difficult to solve one without tackling the other. A lot of people hold prejudices because of alienation and exploitation, for example.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:17
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NumberLast posted:This is exactly what I'm saying shouldn't happen. Right but that's not what happens. I totally agree with what you said but you know as well as I do what happens to 'specialized advocacy groups' in politics. I wish it wasn't true but if we stay 'specialized advocacy groups' we're really easy to brush to the side. The problem comes with the whole 'revolution' mantra. No one is saying what's going on now 'works' for minorities, minorities are down for the 'revolution', spoiler alert minorities have been down for that since before this too. It gets harder when suddenly the revolution has been taken over by people who's goals are macro-economics focused. Minority groups are kinda used to being pushed aside, so when you say 'specialized advocacy groups' a lot of people hear 'go over to the corner while we work, we'll get you when we need you'. All this bullshit seems to always start when people bring this up and instead of saying 'oh, ok, let's work on that' you get people going 'uh but there's no war but class war?????' and trying to talk over them. And you get posts like 'heh these minorities claim to be speaking about minority issues but WE have minorities too so, ya know...we win...' and it just becomes what many people are used to seeing as being used as tokens and banners rather than actual issues.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:19
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Right but that's not what happens. I totally agree with what you said but you know as well as I do what happens to 'specialized advocacy groups' in politics. I wish it wasn't true but if we stay 'specialized advocacy groups' we're really easy to brush to the side. Um...The homeless shelter you were volunteering at was a "Specialized Advocacy Group," from the way you described it. Also I've never seen a significant minority making claims of "No war but the class war." Just loud individuals.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:21
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NumberLast posted:That's what people on my side of the argument are saying.  A few months back, a group of people in the NDP here put out a post-election post-mortem report. One of their recommendations was that the party make a bigger effort to recruit diverse staff and nurture a more diverse volunteer base. I know some of the people on the panel who issued the report, and they include someone who was an unironic Chavezista. The reaction from some leftists in the Canada thread here was to call the recommendation for diversity a neoliberal plot to distract from the party's move rightward and shelter the leadership from criticism. That's the kind of attitude I'm reacting against, not people who think that class can't be dissociated from other issues.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:24
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Pinterest Mom posted:
That's because designing a more diverse leadership doesn't help anyone. It has to happen organically or it's just people that look different making the same decisions.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:26
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SirJohnnyMcDonald posted:Personally, I think identity politics and class politics are very intertwined and it'd be really difficult to solve one without tackling the other. oh yeah for sure i'm just saying that the "marxist who only gives a gently caress about class and THATS IT" is often just used as a strawman. especially considering that it ignores the fact that there are women that are leftists (rosa luxemburg for an old school example, angela davis, audre lorde....), people of color who are leftists (the aforementioned davis and lorde, WEB DuBois, MLK by the end of his life, Cornel West....), etc etc.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:26
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NumberLast posted:Um...The homeless shelter you were volunteering at was a "Specialized Advocacy Group," from the way you described it. Right and as any trip you take to one of those shelters can tell you even for a homeless shelter a lot of them get hosed on funding and support and all. A 'specialized advocacy group' quickly becomes a cool box to have to dump your minorities into and forget about. It's the same way you see stuff like police departments now having 'consultants' brought in and whatever from the black community, and really it all seems to end in 'we had them over, we talked, they left, woops we shot another black kid, weird...' They're kabuki to look good. You open an LGBT youth shelter and you get some good press for your city, then you don't have to care any more because hey come on guys you got your shelter let's not be greedy. NumberLast posted:That's because designing a more diverse leadership doesn't help anyone. It has to happen organically or it's just people that look different making the same decisions. Uh, wanna clarify this a bit?
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Jul 14, 2016 03:28
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NumberLast posted:That's because designing a more diverse leadership doesn't help anyone. It has to happen organically or it's just people that look different making the same decisions. Come on, you don't actually believe that. "Organically", white men dominate the discourse in any activist group, for a ton of structural reasons. Organisations have to make an effort to include the voices of marginalised people or else you just end up with the usual suspects talking over everybody else.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:28
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Pinterest Mom posted:Parroting ableist smear campaigns to dismiss critics is something that even you've done, CC, so you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the concern that good leftists often wield their opponents' identities and concern about identities against them. it's more that the people involved have been on record as not caring or erasing criticism from women, poc, etc. one of the blm people who took the mic from bernie wrote a few tweets about how she first found out about this letter was reading it published and finding it patronizing by the first paragraph. Pinterest Mom posted:Isn't that implicit in the premise of the letter? The left is supposed to be (and is, by and large is) better for marginalised people, of all stripes, so that makes the instances where we fall down all the more egregious. We don't get to pat ourselves on the back, point to how many doctors in Cuba are women, and declare the job done. right, and cuba has gotten on board that train wrt afro cubans, homosexuality and even better treatment of women. castro calls it "the revolution within the revolution." mao said the same, though china's been slower to make those changes. criticism and self-criticism and all that. both countries are ahead of the us, in any case. but how many signatories do you think would have a positive thing to say about cuba, or any actually existing socialist country for that matter?
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Jul 14, 2016 03:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Uh, wanna clarify this a bit? If a bunch of white men on type choose non-white men to join the leadership, they're just gonna choose people that hold the same ideologies to continue protecting their interests. Pinterest Mom posted:Come on, you don't actually believe that. "Organically", white men dominate the discourse in any activist group, for a ton of structural reasons. Organisations have to make an effort to include the voices of marginalised people or else you just end up with the usual suspects talking over everybody else. I'm not talking about inclusion, I'm talking about leadership.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:31
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Right and as any trip you take to one of those shelters can tell you even for a homeless shelter a lot of them get hosed on funding and support and all. A 'specialized advocacy group' quickly becomes a cool box to have to dump your minorities into and forget about. It's the same way you see stuff like police departments now having 'consultants' brought in and whatever from the black community, and really it all seems to end in 'we had them over, we talked, they left, woops we shot another black kid, weird...' They're kabuki to look good. You open an LGBT youth shelter and you get some good press for your city, then you don't have to care any more because hey come on guys you got your shelter let's not be greedy. This is precisely what I'm speaking against. We have to actually make a concerted effort to help the marginalized members of society, not just slap a label on something and pat ourselves on the back.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:33
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.....wait did pinterest mom literally say me saying sady doyle has a mental illness is ableism. she DOES have a mental illness. she has said so herself. and that mental illness causes her to be paranoid and accusatory. she said that herself. and i sympathized with that and felt bad for her and wanted her to get help. like i wasn't trying to be an rear end in a top hat lmao
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Jul 14, 2016 03:33
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i have social anxiety disorder and ADHD so i guess i technically committed Horizontal Aggression......
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Jul 14, 2016 03:34
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NumberLast posted:That's because designing a more diverse leadership doesn't help anyone. It has to happen organically or it's just people that look different making the same decisions. lol
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Jul 14, 2016 03:37
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NumberLast posted:If a bunch of white men on type choose non-white men to join the leadership, they're just gonna choose people that hold the same ideologies to continue protecting their interests. ^^ also diversifying a toxic system does not make that system less toxic. the US Military is still an oppressive force in the world no matter how many different types of people can join the army and how many people get to be forced into the draft, or whatever. it doesn't matter a single iota whether there are more women generals, or whatever. same with Wall Street. Wall Street is still an oppressive force in the US and in the world and it will continue to be so no matter how many different kinds of people can be CEOs. instead of trying to diversify toxic systems we have to work on dismantling systems that oppress people of all kinds.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:37
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fantastic addition to the conversation, Sir Or Madam Or Other
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Jul 14, 2016 03:37
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lol i think error 404 retweeted me during a back-and-forth on this very topic
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Jul 14, 2016 03:38
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NumberLast posted:If a bunch of white men on type choose non-white men to join the leadership, they're just gonna choose people that hold the same ideologies to continue protecting their interests. You get leadership from inclusion. How do you think this works if not through that? Like I'm really trying to take this well but it's hard not to see this as some kinda weird affirmative action slam or something I'd expect from someone way less progressive minded. Like, implying the only way a party leadership can diversify is if white men choose a token out of a hat kinda stuff. Homework Explainer posted:it's more that the people involved have been on record as not caring or erasing criticism from women, poc, etc. one of the blm people who took the mic from bernie wrote a few tweets about how she first found out about this letter was reading it published and finding it patronizing by the first paragraph. Can you point to how Cuba has actually improved for these groups? I only really know LGBT stuff (shocking I know) but last I checked the only progress beyond Castro saying 'yikes, remember when we actively threw you in jail? Woops!' has been in 2013 where employment, and only employment, discrimination was banned. You still can't get married, adopt kids, even get IVF or surrogacy and poo poo. This is on top of stuff like a complete lack of protection in hate crimes, hate speech, and even basic poo poo you'd think a communist government would be down with like equal access to services.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:38
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NumberLast posted:If a bunch of white men on type choose non-white men to join the leadership, they're just gonna choose people that hold the same ideologies to continue protecting their interests. I understand your view, and I think it is an accurate assessment of recent (and not so recent) incidents of minorities, PoC, underclass, etc in power.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:39
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Classic Comrade posted:fantastic addition to the conversation, Sir Or Madam Or Other you can't just wait around for a diverse leadership to "organically" appear because it won't happen also, diverse leadership brings diverse viewpoints to an issue. it is absolutely valuable to have people of different eg. racial backgrounds when you approach an issue because they might see problems differently (ex: immigration)
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Jul 14, 2016 03:40
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Tatum Girlparts posted:You get leadership from inclusion. How do you think this works if not through that? Um...Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Also CC made a much better post about it than I did.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:41
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Homework Explainer posted:it's more that the people involved have been on record as not caring or erasing criticism from women, poc, etc. one of the blm people who took the mic from bernie wrote a few tweets about how she first found out about this letter was reading it published and finding it patronizing by the first paragraph. https://twitter.com/rissaoftheway/status/753344148065837056 https://twitter.com/rissaoftheway/status/753349276390928384 quote:right, and cuba has gotten on board that train wrt afro cubans, homosexuality and even better treatment of women. castro calls it "the revolution within the revolution." mao said the same, though china's been slower to make those changes. criticism and self-criticism and all that. both countries are ahead of the us, in any case. I don't think it's fair to say that China and Cuba are unambiguously better than the US (or the West broadly) on issues of representation or inclusion, but sure. I'm not endorsing the signatories~
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Jul 14, 2016 03:41
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As a minority myself, the conversation of race brought on by the left from all cavets is very amusing and at times eye rolling.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:41
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like these are basically the same arguments used against affirmative action
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Jul 14, 2016 03:42
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Hell look at Theresa May
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Jul 14, 2016 03:42
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Classic Comrade posted:^^ see, this is exactly what I was talking about with macro ignoring local, pressing, issues. Like, cool, you want to dismantle these systems. That's awesome, but currently in these systems we already have the minority groups being discriminated against. Like, there's LGBT day traders, black finance managers, Hispanic housing loan agents, Asian drone operators, all that crap. You can talk all you want about 'dismantling' these systems but when you act like ending oppression within them means nothing at all then you're functionally telling these people who are being victimized 'yea but who cares about your problems, the REAL issue is...'
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Jul 14, 2016 03:42
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Classic Comrade posted:.....wait did pinterest mom literally say me saying sady doyle has a mental illness is ableism. she DOES have a mental illness. she has said so herself. and that mental illness causes her to be paranoid and accusatory. she said that herself. and i sympathized with that and felt bad for her and wanted her to get help. like i wasn't trying to be an rear end in a top hat lmao I did, yeah. NumberLast posted:I'm not talking about inclusion, I'm talking about leadership. That's nice. I was talking about the NDP making an effort to build a more diverse volunteer base and staff and it being denounced as a neoliberal distraction by leftist critics.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:44
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Homework Explainer posted:lol i think error 404 retweeted me during a back-and-forth on this very topic lol i wonder if i follow you already
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Jul 14, 2016 03:45
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Pinterest Mom posted:I did, yeah. lmao
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Jul 14, 2016 03:46
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Like, cool, you want to dismantle these systems. That's awesome, but currently in these systems we already have the minority groups being discriminated against. Like, there's LGBT day traders, black finance managers, Hispanic housing loan agents, Asian drone operators, all that crap. You can talk all you want about 'dismantling' these systems but when you act like ending oppression within them means nothing at all then you're functionally telling these people who are being victimized 'yea but who cares about your problems, the REAL issue is...' I'm not sure I follow. It sounds like you are promoting inclusion and normalization of and within systems of oppression, and that is a great victory. Like, you are saying, "its great that the latest black man to be killed by police was killed by an Asian police officer".
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Jul 14, 2016 03:50
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Palicgofueniczekt posted:I'm not sure I follow. It sounds like you are promoting inclusion and normalization of and within systems of oppression, and that is a great victory. Like, you are saying, "its great that the latest black man to be killed by police was killed by an Asian police officer". it sounds like you're saying workplace discrimination doesn't matter if the workplace is ideologically incorrect
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Jul 14, 2016 03:52
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It seems that people are (purposely) misinterpreting each other's arguments.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:52
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You're literally citing her mental health in the same breath as you're dismissing her opinions.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:53
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Pinterest Mom posted:You mean this woman calling out the Racist White Left but also finding the letter problematic, yes? that's the one. and sure, it's not a cut and dried superiority. considering their economic development relative to the us i'd say there's no contest, though. Tatum Girlparts posted:Can you point to how Cuba has actually improved for these groups? I only really know LGBT stuff (shocking I know) but last I checked the only progress beyond Castro saying 'yikes, remember when we actively threw you in jail? Woops!' has been in 2013 where employment, and only employment, discrimination was banned. You still can't get married, adopt kids, even get IVF or surrogacy and poo poo. This is on top of stuff like a complete lack of protection in hate crimes, hate speech, and even basic poo poo you'd think a communist government would be down with like equal access to services. http://thegroundtruthproject.org/cubas-gay-rights-revolution/ http://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/06/01/cuba-increasingly-popular-travel-destination-for-lgbt-americans/ http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/07/cuba-haven-lgbt-rights-150727104541812.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/world/americas/06iht-letter06.html?_r=0 http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/01/Cuba_whitepaper.pdf http://democracyinamericas.org/pdfs/Womens_Work_Executive_Summary.pdf as most of these articles suggest, it's a game of trends much like it is in the us. gender reassignment is covered by national health care but there still isn't a marriage or civil union law. every country is different, so the things that get fixed first will vary. but imo if you look at the cuban, chinese and us governments over the next 20 years (assuming socialist revolution doesn't happen in the us, which it will  ) i'm willing to bet they'll have parity even though the us should have a leg up, being the world's most advanced economy and all.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:56
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Pinterest Mom posted:People on my side of the argument are saying class and identity, not class or identity. The thing is people on your side of the argument are not saying it. Like, at all. The only time you've even said it is right here. Also, one letter deserves another: https://medium.com/@scaryh/return-to-sender-465382731e40#.4caaxndsd Also this: Hajj Podge posted:Neo-Liberals have been desperately trying to claim the Progressive and Leftist mantle while not actually being either for years just to get votes. The legislation they pass and their administrations have always been derived on their corporate-first values. They vaguely pay lip service to Progressive and Leftist causes and they almost always gently caress up any implementation of actual good ideas that come from the left out of an interest to ~compromise~ with the opposition (either within the Democratic Party itself or from Republicans) that has no intentions of negotiating in good faith. Neo-Liberals do this in a misguided and naive desire to appear reasonable and mature. Instead, all they really accomplish is fattening their campaign warchests and loving over poor people and minorities in the process. To pretend that the Democratic Party is largely anything but a corrupt, cheap imitation of actual Progressivism or Socialism or Leftism of any kind is simply a big fat loving joke. They haven't been representative of Progressives or the Left in decades. It's extremely unlikely they ever will be again as long as they continue to drag the party to the right. Error 404 has issued a correction as of 03:59 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 03:57
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punk rebel ecks posted:It seems that people are (purposely) misinterpreting each other's arguments. We on the left do love our smug condescension and superiority complexes. It's an inherent character flaw. If we have that opportunity to get that last zinger in, you can bet dollars to donuts that we will!
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Jul 14, 2016 03:57
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Palicgofueniczekt posted:I'm not sure I follow. It sounds like you are promoting inclusion and normalization of and within systems of oppression, and that is a great victory. Like, you are saying, "its great that the latest black man to be killed by police was killed by an Asian police officer". in what world did I call it a 'great victory'? I'm saying they literally exist, and they need to be covered under anti discrimination and safe workplace stuff just like everyone else, and if you're focusing on how the institutions need to be 'dismantled' over that then you're missing the forest for the trees. Like, to take it to an extreme example, you wouldn't say improving the VA and all needs to be a low priority because the military is an oppressive force, so we need to sort out all of UHC before we start working on that stuff, right?
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Jul 14, 2016 03:57
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