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When everyone has grown up with HSR available do you think they will suddenly stop bitching about the distance to the station, the comfort of the public seating, crowding of the carriages, or the time spent waiting for someone else's schedule? If it's a private company making HSR for profit what makes you think they will be any more concerned about your comfort and convenience than literally everyone else who shuffles as many people as possible into as few services as they can to maximise use.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:46
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The more people competing for your seat the more they have to care about you. I really can't see a private company taking this kind of risk though, the only way I can see it happening is if they get concessions from the government that are so large it might as well be publicly financed.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:51
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Kommando posted:aircraft crashes make big news but train derailments don't. Ergo rail sounds safer. There was a train derailment in Victoria yesterday, where a Vline train smashed into a truck at a level crossing. Before we build a HSR link to Sydney, why don't we fix the trains lines we already have and people actually use?
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Jul 14, 2016 04:51
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norp posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36774059 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster Big numbers get peoples attention over actual statistics (in terms of people transported and distance travelled, aircraft are the safest method of travel)
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Jul 14, 2016 05:01
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freebooter posted:https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2013/04/15/so-high-speed-rail-increases-carbon-emissions/ Dog poo poo science journalism. Based on the second figure, Sydney's second airport is the primary cause of HSR emissions. But I can't really say if HSR is more or less polluting than air because the two figures present contradicting conclusions, and the article doesn't clarify it. It appears that a HSR service will emit less pollution than its equivalent air service. It's also a good argument for ripping up the suburban rail network. Sure there will be more people using cars, but that will be offset by people not travelling at all. If we ban cars, we will also reduce CO2. Increasing suppressed demand reduces pollution, well no poo poo. The economic argument for HSR is bad. However, from what I can tell without going through the report, the environmental argument is sound. quote:It’s not that travelling by HSR isn’t greener than flying or driving. Attracting around half of all airplane travellers in the corridor to HSR would reduce emissions from aviation by 116 Mt CO2-e over the period. ...now let me fiddle the numbers to support my own agenda.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:10
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Milky Moor posted:What benefits does such a system offer over just using a pencil on some paper and putting it in a box? Fat people can vote from the comfort of their own kitchens. People who can't possibly deal with not know the result of an election for a week or so might find out a tiny bit sooner. Businesses can pay Russian/Estonian/Chinese/whatever hackers to rig results, negating the costly process of bribing political parties. Tokamak posted:The part where they buy land for $1000 and sell for $150000 is fanciful. Also how is it going to be a two hour train ride if it needs to stop off at 8+ stops between your destination. If you buy land at one of these new towns, you'll be stuck catching the non-express service which could add hours to your time. If they did it right they'd have enough tracks so that an express service could run between the cities while another train is stopping all stations. It'd actually be pretty good for regional towns a couple of hours drive from either city, they'd suddenly be places people could commute to work from. Maluco Marinero posted:He presumes a lot in this statement, and one would think the way Liberal haemorrhaged votes to minor parties and Labor would indicate anything other than a mandate for their policies. I'm sure he's in for a bit of a shock when he actually tries to get something done through the Senate. He'll just stamp his feet and say mandate a lot before whatever the proposal was gets quietly shelved. Jumpingmanjim posted:EvilElmo is as good at this as IWC was back in the day. Nah, IWC was better at hitting a nerve in exactly the right spot to really rile the thread up, and was a lot more subtle too.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:16
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norp posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36774059  https://www.google.com.au/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F015xf8%2C%20%2Fm%2F03tvqg%2C%20%2Fm%2F045f3r%2C%20train%20crash&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-10 Kat Delacour posted:The nice thing about planes is they don't need to have great swathes of specialised track built and maintained for them. true.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:19
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Kat Delacour posted:I'm standing by poo poo stirring. I would have expected those stories to be reflected in the updated counts that evening but, as of last night's update, there is still no indication of it. Meanwhile, it's in both Green and LNP interests to make some news of Danby being an unpopular shitheel (true!) but you need a hook for clicks these days. There's a big problem with your analysis though, you're only assessing who runs off against the Liberals based on first preferences. There's currently 5% of the primary vote tied up between the Animal Justice Party, Drug Law Reform and Marriage Equality. Those will break heavily to the greens. Peter Holland has recommended voting Labor 2nd, with his 1.64% of the votes. That doesn't account for two types of people voting for him though. He's in first position, so he will get some donkey votes, which will then go to Liberals who are 2nd in line, rather than making it through to Labor. Secondly, he's been active in the anti-development groups around St Kilda, specifically unChain. unChain recommended preferencing the Liberals over Danby last time round, and there's also a lot of overlap between them and greens supporters. I have no idea what John Myers (0.47%) stands for, other than one site saying he is anti-marriage equality, so if he issued a htv card it probably preferenced the Liberals above either Labor or the Greens.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:28
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gay picnic defence posted:If they did it right they'd have enough tracks so that an express service could run between the cities while another train is stopping all stations. It'd actually be pretty good for regional towns a couple of hours drive from either city, they'd suddenly be places people could commute to work from. Sure, but I was thinking from the perspective of someone buying property in these new regional towns. A two hour express service seems attractive, but those people won't be getting an express service. It will be faster than a car, but I don't think it will be a commutable distance for people living at the centre stations. You might only be making those property returns in areas that are one or two stops away from the city (where you will be seeing the shortest commute times). The details are pretty thin so we can't really say how exactly they will be making their money.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:37
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Tokamak posted:Sure, but I was thinking from the perspective of someone buying property in these new regional towns. A two hour express service seems attractive, but those people won't be getting an express service. It will be faster than a car, but I don't think it will be a commutable distance for people living at the centre stations. You might only be making those property returns in areas that are one or two stops away from the city (where you will be seeing the shortest commute times). The details are pretty thin so we can't really say how exactly they will be making their money. 2 hours is the end to end goal. Golburn to Sydney., Shepprton / Albury to Melboune, Wagga to Canberra would all be under an hour for the commute. That is better than outer suburbs now. add some regular branch line services from what we can call the "new main line" and you have even more local towns serviced.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:56
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High speed rail will be an absolute disaster if it is anything but 100% publicly owned.
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Jul 14, 2016 06:02
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I don't know if we should really be looking at it as a solution for commuters. Even if you can do it in an hour or less is it really ideal to have people traveling hundreds of kilometres to go to work every day? Surely it would be better, cheaper, to invest in the economies of Goulburn and Wagga?
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Jul 14, 2016 06:05
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open24hours posted:I don't know if we should really be looking at it as a solution for commuters. Even if you can do it in an hour or less is it really ideal to have people traveling hundreds of kilometres to go to work every day? Surely it would be better, cheaper, to invest in the economies of Goulburn and Wagga? Or effective ubiquitous high speed telecommunications allowing for many classes of jobs in certain industries to just skip the commute.
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Jul 14, 2016 06:10
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Mad Katter posted:Airports are awful, airlines are awful, sitting on an aeroplane is awful, and getting to/from the airport is a pain in the rear end.  terror theatre. When I was randomly explosive residue tested for the billionth time I asked the dude doing it when it was going to stop. He looked incredulous and without a shadow of doubt said, "Until they stop blowing planes out of the sky". I asked him when exactly was the last time that had actually happened and he said a couple of times recently in Eygpt. OK let's put that to the test:February 2 2016 a flight from Somalia was effect by a suspected bomb which killed the bomber and injured two others. OK... October 31 2015 a flight from Sharm-El-Sheikh (Eygpt) was brought down by a terrorist bomb. One out of the two claimed if we allow recent to be over six months ago and technically last year. Then we have to go all the way back to 2004 for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Russian_aircraft_bombings. More people are killed due to the low wages being paid to commercial airline pilots. Wages that could be improved if we weren't pissing money up the wall on airline security theatre that gives productivity a kicking and makes air travel that much less pleasant due to compulsory encounters with tinpot Hitlers in rent a cop uniforms. gently caress those guys. I could, obviously, go on.
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Jul 14, 2016 06:10
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open24hours posted:I don't know if we should really be looking at it as a solution for commuters. Even if you can do it in an hour or less is it really ideal to have people traveling hundreds of kilometres to go to work every day? Surely it would be better, cheaper, to invest in the economies of Goulburn and Wagga? There is a chicken and the egg problem there. not enough need / demand for development, so none happens, so their is not enough need. HSR is one way of breaking that cycle. From the politics of it, it helps land developers, construction companies, unions etc. It has friends across the spectrum. The problem is sticker shock. With this plan they are claiming they have removed that. I don't believe them, but once it is started there will be too much inertia to stop it and the public purse will pick up the tab. If we get some economic modelling to show the growth and tax base increases are more than the financing cost, it will be hard to kill. And you can make economic modelling show whatever you want by fudging the assumptions. I would prefer it just get made a national priority and publicly fund it Brisbane to Melbourne (then on to Adelaide). Make all suppliers be required to be Australian and you could give enough work to encourage the modernisation and upgrading of a lot of manufacturing capacity.
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Jul 14, 2016 06:29
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KennyTheFish posted:There is a chicken and the egg problem there. not enough need / demand for development, so none happens, so their is not enough need. HSR is one way of breaking that cycle. NBN would be a cheaper and better way.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:04
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KennyTheFish posted:There is a chicken and the egg problem there. not enough need / demand for development, so none happens, so their is not enough need. HSR is one way of breaking that cycle. Why would you use Australian built stuff when you could import some nice white Asbestos?
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Jul 14, 2016 07:07
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Frogmanv2 posted:NBN would be a cheaper and better way. NBN is a great enabler, but I don't see it providing enough impetus to move away from the centralisation into Melbourne and Sydney that we have seen for the last decades. East Coast HSR could be that impetus. Ideally we would have both. Also if we are developing greenfield and brownfield regional towns, then there is an opportunity to build for density with mixed use zoning and other ideas for more efficiency. The country needs long term vision about what things will look like in 50 years, with a plan on how to get there. This crowd is about the only game I have seen doing that.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:17
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Firetrick posted:Last night I was on the plane for 2.5 hours because Sydney closed a runway and we couldn't leave. Total time with delays was about 5 hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP8zlX3evDU Tokamak posted:The part where they buy land for $1000 and sell for $150000 is fanciful. Also how is it going to be a two hour train ride if it needs to stop off at 8+ stops between your destination. If you buy land at one of these new towns, you'll be stuck catching the non-express service which could add hours to your time. https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/index.aspx https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/files/HSR_Phase_2_Chapter_3.pdf  TheHeadSage posted:There was a train derailment in Victoria yesterday, where a Vline train smashed into a truck at a level crossing. Make Albury/Wodonga area have 500,000 people and it'd be good. (Currently ~130,000, far below what Whitlam projected it to be now, back in the 70s) drunkill fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 07:23
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Cartoon posted:Hey you didn't mention Airport Guessing Egypt had random explosives checks at its airports too.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:25
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On the topic of decentralisation, in late 2014 Catalyst had a good program called Future Cities, which looks at strategies and alternatives. No Demasi involved, so worth a look.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:29
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Jumpingmanjim posted:Canberra - Queanbeyan HSR. Sold
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Jul 14, 2016 07:36
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drunkill posted:
this is a loving pipe dream. 5 super expensive, technologically futuristic trains per direction, per loving hour (20 future trains running with 100% uptime, so you'd need more like 50 or more) from Sydney to Melbourne in this country? That also doesn't count all the other inter station trains. I can't remember where I saw it, but there was a commentary article recently about the loving train line how studies are being funded year after year and it's all bullshit make-work. High speed rail makes no sense when you're talking about building it in a place that would service a population of about 10 million. starkebn fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 07:40
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starkebn posted:this is a loving pipe dream. 5 super expensive, technologically futuristic trains per direction, per loving hour from Sydney to Melbourne in this country? That also doesn't count all the other inter station trains. There was a bit on the Chaser's election desk about it, not thinking of that?
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Jul 14, 2016 07:42
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Solemn Sloth posted:I have no idea what John Myers (0.47%) stands for, other than one site saying he is anti-marriage equality, so if he issued a htv card it probably preferenced the Liberals above either Labor or the Greens. Fruit loop candidate who only got about 300 votes anyway. He wants to abolish the AMA because they stripped him of his medical license for sexually assaulting a patient.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:46
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:There was a bit on the Chaser's election desk about it, not thinking of that? I thought it might have been a bit more credible but it might have been
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Jul 14, 2016 07:47
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starkebn posted:this is a loving pipe dream. 5 super expensive, technologically futuristic trains per direction, per loving hour (20 future trains running with 100% uptime, so you'd need more like 50 or more) from Sydney to Melbourne in this country? That also doesn't count all the other inter station trains. All these numbers are for 50 years into the future, so it isn't so crazy if you think hhat HSR replaces ~60%+ of domestic flights within Australia with a connected Melbourne to Brisbane route and an expansion to Adelaide in the works. The study is from 2013 though so some things have changes and there are like 4 current proposals from private companies to build HSR in Aus. https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/index.aspx quote:he report found that: Yes, very expensive, but if you grow the cities along the way there is added benefit. Either way, even if work started today there would be no HSR system operating in Australia before 2030. Even with the cheapest Chinese backed proposal where they'd fly in all their own workers and pay them nothing to build it all. drunkill fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 07:47
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KennyTheFish posted:NBN is a great enabler, but I don't see it providing enough impetus to move away from the centralisation into Melbourne and Sydney that we have seen for the last decades. East Coast HSR could be that impetus. Ideally we would have both. Also if we are developing greenfield and brownfield regional towns, then there is an opportunity to build for density with mixed use zoning and other ideas for more efficiency. I don't think you understand how important fancy fighter jets are.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:51
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drunkill posted:All these numbers are for 50 years into the future, so it isn't so crazy if you think hhat HSR replaces ~60%+ of domestic flights within Australia with a connected Melbourne to Brisbane route and an expansion to Adelaide in the works.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:56
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KennyTheFish posted:NBN is a great enabler, but I don't see it providing enough impetus to move away from the centralisation into Melbourne and Sydney that we have seen for the last decades. East Coast HSR could be that impetus. Ideally we would have both. Also if we are developing greenfield and brownfield regional towns, then there is an opportunity to build for density with mixed use zoning and other ideas for more efficiency. 
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Jul 14, 2016 08:02
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starkebn posted:this is a loving pipe dream. 5 super expensive, technologically futuristic trains per direction, per loving hour (20 future trains running with 100% uptime, so you'd need more like 50 or more) from Sydney to Melbourne in this country? That also doesn't count all the other inter station trains. The marginal cost per train is not a lot once the track is there, and having a train every 10 minutes makes it convenient so people use it. The trains are not some strange future technology, they are on tracks running on those sorts of schedules right now around the world. If the population projections hold, we need to do something about the sprawl in the major capital cities. We need more capacity to deal with it, and with the timelines involved we need to start soon.
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Jul 14, 2016 08:06
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Guessing Egypt had random explosives checks at its airports too. quote:Did British experts miss security flaws at Sharm el-Sheikh airport? Whatever they had it didn't do what it was meant to and the reaction was to be even bigger douches about security. Yay!
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Jul 14, 2016 08:25
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A Perth hospital declared asbestos free in 2013 has been found to have asbestos. CFMEU confirms some workers may have been affected. Questions if corruption exists in the process of declaring building asbestos free.
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Jul 14, 2016 08:29
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Jesus Christ. See people? This is why we have to have unions.
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Jul 14, 2016 08:39
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Makes you wonder how many building out there are actually full of asbestos and have been declared otherwise via some backroom deals.
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Jul 14, 2016 08:45
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You Am I posted:Jesus Christ. See people? This is why we have to have unions. Federal ICAC now.
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Jul 14, 2016 08:45
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Anidav posted:A Perth hospital declared asbestos free in 2013 has been found to have asbestos. CFMEU confirms some workers may have been affected. Questions if corruption exists in the process of declaring building asbestos free. I used to work in the building John Holland have set up their head office and it very clearly has asbestos warning signs on the inside of the plant and utility cupboards. I spent my entire life there for 8 years and unless asbestos removal companies wear camouflage and work in the dead of the night and don't take signs down, somebody has been telling porkies. e: building is annexed to the hospital
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Jul 14, 2016 08:49
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Anidav posted:Makes you wonder how many building out there are actually full of asbestos and have been declared otherwise via some backroom deals. I'm sure most of the schools building during the 60s and 70s are chock full of the poo poo. I remember the high school I went to had to be shut down fairly quickly when they found asbestos in the gym/theatre area
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Jul 14, 2016 08:52
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Periphery posted:High speed rail will be an absolute disaster if it is anything but 100% publicly owned. Probably, but if people want to throw their own money at one why not let them? In other news: quote:Personal insolvencies jumped 13.7 per cent in the three months to June, compared to the same period last year, and bankruptcies increased 7 per cent, according to the Australian Financial Security Authority. If this is happening now when interest rates are at record lows imagine how it'll look if the RBA ever returns rates to normal. I wonder if they even can raise them to normal now, there must be thousands of people with loans whose interest rates float with the official cash rate, even the smallest rise might set off a wave of defaults.
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Jul 14, 2016 09:07
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gay picnic defence posted:Probably, but if people want to throw their own money at one why not let them? 
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Jul 14, 2016 09:29
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