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Big Mean Jerk posted:Pretty much this. Real Klingons use HONOR and GLORY as excuses to get shitfaced, get in huge brawls, and blow poo poo up. Worf is a Klingon Fundamentalist who can't wrap his giant head around this concept of "fun". It's also crazy that the dude's been around for like 10 cumulative seasons of Star Trek and he finally goes down. It's sad yet satisfying.
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Jul 14, 2016 17:44
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Mogomra posted:I like to imagine that The Sisko just sits in his office all day staring at the wall when he's not one of the main characters in the episode. if you don't like Soldiers of the Empire you are literally worse than STID
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Jul 14, 2016 17:49
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Asmodai_00 posted:if you don't like Soldiers of the Empire you are literally worse than STID That episode and episodes like it are exactly what I'm talking about actually. 
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Jul 14, 2016 18:04
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Gammatron 64 posted:True story: When I first saw profit and lace, I was eating Velveeta mac and cheese and I threw up. I gave the rest to the dog. Like the time I was eating while trying to watch the episode of Fear Factor where they had to eat maggoty cheese.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:08
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Strange Matter posted:Which is why Ezri calling him out on it at the end of Season 7 is great. Lays it right on the line that the Empire that Worf knows is dying because nobody actually practices the tenants that it's based on, at least none of the people in charge. Martok getting forcibly jobbed at every turn by Gowron for political reasons is so frustrating to watch and it's a great catharsis when Worf finally kidney stabs him. I always figured that the Klingon Empire that Worf idolizes never existed. Like the Japanese concept of bushido, it was complete bullshit fabricated by an expansionist, militaristic government to justify wars that in truth were about grabbing territory, grabbing resources, or settling grudges. Worf, being raised among humans, simply wasn't in on the joke.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:27
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Essentially. It's kind of sad.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:39
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Mogomra posted:I like to imagine that The Sisko just sits in his office all day staring at the wall when he's not one of the main characters in the episode. One of my favourite Picard moments in TNG is in his office shot from behind so we see what's on that little computer pad on his desk. He's just staring at a screensaver, someone comes in, he quickly brushes them off, and as their leaving he goes back to staring at the screensaver. Can't remember what episode that was though. Cythereal posted:I always figured that the Klingon Empire that Worf idolizes never existed. Like the Japanese concept of bushido, it was complete bullshit fabricated by an expansionist, militaristic government to justify wars that in truth were about grabbing territory, grabbing resources, or settling grudges. Worf, being raised among humans, simply wasn't in on the joke. Pretty much, though I get the feeling that on TNG at least some of the creative team didn't really get that and played it straight, even though most Klingon centric episodes were about corruption in the highest circles of power in the Empire. I can't imagine what it must be like for all those none Klingon "citizens" of the Empire.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:41
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Baka-nin posted:Pretty much, though I get the feeling that on TNG at least some of the creative team didn't really get that and played it straight, even though most Klingon centric episodes were about corruption in the highest circles of power in the Empire. I can't imagine what it must be like for all those none Klingon "citizens" of the Empire. On the other hand, Ron Moore was the driving force behind most of those Klingon-centered episodes, and if I remember right his conceptualization of the Klingon Empire was that while the upper echelons might be corrupt as gently caress, the Empire as a whole was still largely efficient and fair.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:11
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:On the other hand, Ron Moore was the driving force behind most of those Klingon-centered episodes, and if I remember right his conceptualization of the Klingon Empire was that while the upper echelons might be corrupt as gently caress, the Empire as a whole was still largely efficient and fair. I don't see why this wouldn't be the case, the few times we see Klingons who aren't politicians or military fratbros they seem pretty on the level. It's just like anywhere else, most people are just people trying to get by but to get into the elite you either are a corrupt rear end in a top hat or become one in the process. Which just makes Martok all the more awesome.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:28
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McSpanky posted:I don't see why this wouldn't be the case, the few times we see Klingons who aren't politicians or military fratbros they seem pretty on the level. It's just like anywhere else, most people are just people trying to get by but to get into the elite you either are a corrupt rear end in a top hat or become one in the process. Which just makes Martok all the more awesome. Quark's Klingon wife was a pretty great example of good Klingon.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:47
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That Klingon biologist was a spy for the Romulans, and the Klingon lawyer was trying to frame Worf for war crimes. I shudder to think what heinous evil the Klingon chef was plotting in the background while the crew were distracted by the wormhole.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:51
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The "lol wrong turn" gag is funny, but are you saying it's Rom's "noooooo" that makes that scene for you? Because seriously, Rom's not doing anything for me in that scene. It doesn't make the scene, but it is like a great opening warm-up act. It's funny and lighthearted and makes the second bit even better. I like how Rom, Nog, and Quark grew as characters, which is more than anybody else in pretty much all of Trek ever did.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:55
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Baka-nin posted:That Klingon biologist was a spy for the Romulans, and the Klingon lawyer was trying to frame Worf for war crimes. I shudder to think what heinous evil the Klingon chef was plotting in the background while the crew were distracted by the wormhole. He was probably preparing cooked meat.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:59
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Rhyno posted:Quark's Klingon wife was a pretty great example of good Klingon. Yep, and even she was getting squeezed out of the high-council/elite through corrupted officials.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:20
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:On the other hand, Ron Moore was the driving force behind most of those Klingon-centered episodes, and if I remember right his conceptualization of the Klingon Empire was that while the upper echelons might be corrupt as gently caress, the Empire as a whole was still largely efficient and fair. You can have a government and society that's efficient and fair while being an expansionist, militaristic government that likes to disguise land grabs and political grudges with "Strength and honor!" to make it more palatable to the masses. The Klingon Empire as less racist, less war crime-y, more efficient and fair Imperial Japan rings true enough to me.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:21
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Cythereal posted:You can have a government and society that's efficient and fair while being an expansionist, militaristic government that likes to disguise land grabs and political grudges with "Strength and honor!" to make it more palatable to the masses. I always thought of them more like the Mongols. Fair to their friends, devastating to their enemies. Warrior traditions, etc.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:30
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Rhyno posted:He was probably preparing cooked meat. Worse. 
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Jul 14, 2016 20:36
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WickedHate posted:As a metaphor for abortion, it's incredibly clumsy. They aren't rape babies, they just aren't, there's no real reason to be so mad about their existence and nothing to gain by destroying them. On a ship as huge as the Enterprise, there had to be at least a few people willing to donate if Picard just took a survey or something. What you gain by destroying the clones is making it real clear to these guys that you can't just take what you want from other people, even if you're doing it covertly. Nessus fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 21:27
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But theft isn't rape, and even as far as theft goes, it's remarkably harmless. Still not [I]good[I] to take genetic samples without permission, but it's not exactly the same life altering decisions.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:31
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Rhyno posted:Quark's Klingon wife was a pretty great example of good Klingon.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:33
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I can't believe in all the talk that's been posted about that episode, no one's mentioned the hot Space Irish lady that Riker bones.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:35
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WickedHate posted:But theft isn't rape, and even as far as theft goes, it's remarkably harmless. Still not [I]good[I] to take genetic samples without permission, but it's not exactly the same life altering decisions. I'd say finding out ten years later that you have a genetic clone who was created against your will would be pretty heavily rocking. Or finding out in sixty years that the reason that guy looks so much like you is because he's a clone of Grampy Will. WampaLord posted:I can't believe in all the talk that's been posted about that episode, no one's mentioned the hot Space Irish lady that Riker bones.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:37
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WickedHate posted:But theft isn't rape, and even as far as theft goes, it's remarkably harmless. Still not [I]good[I] to take genetic samples without permission, but it's not exactly the same life altering decisions. Depends on how libertarian you are
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Jul 14, 2016 21:37
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Nessus posted:Well at a certain point you're saying that people's consent is irrelevant, and can be circumvented even if specifically and explicitly withheld, as long as this circumvention is "harmless." That seems like a pretty problematic ethical perspective to take. Only when taken as a broad applied philosophy and not a case by case thing. I don't support the clone colony, just that, narratively, as a metaphor, it's not nearly the same thing as what their trying to compare it to, both rape and abortion. Nessus posted:I'd say finding out ten years later that you have a genetic clone who was created against your will would be pretty heavily rocking. Or finding out in sixty years that the reason that guy looks so much like you is because he's a clone of Grampy Will. I don't really see a huge problem with that. It'd be annoying and I wouldn't be super cool with it, but it wouldn't wreck me.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:40
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Now I do think the calculus would've been different if, say, they needed a gene sample to reinforce their established clone lines but weren't going to be duplicating that person directly, or something like that. That would have been more in the line of a medical treatment and would have presented a much thornier ethical question, but instead they clone Riker against his will. (Did anyone ask Pulaski? now there's a punchline)
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Jul 14, 2016 21:41
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What's really ironic is that Riker already had a genetically identical duplicate the whole time!
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Jul 14, 2016 21:46
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The closest contemporary parallel we would have is the HeLa cell line. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa In the US, it was ruled legal, but UK would require patient consent.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:08
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Cythereal posted:I always figured that the Klingon Empire that Worf idolizes never existed. Like the Japanese concept of bushido, it was complete bullshit fabricated by an expansionist, militaristic government to justify wars that in truth were about grabbing territory, grabbing resources, or settling grudges. Worf, being raised among humans, simply wasn't in on the joke. It's a little harder to convince a Klingon, though. Especially when their Excalibur turns out to be real.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:25
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I think it's funny that the Klingons literally killed their religion and of all things it turns out to be true.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:28
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They only killed their Gods, they still clearly have a spiritualism that most of them believe in.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:31
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Deep Space Nine Season Four: Hell yes it's bald Sisko time, poo poo just got real.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:32
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Rhyno posted:Deep Space Nine Season Four: The Hawk is erratic. Violent. Explain this linear concept of "defenestration."
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Jul 14, 2016 22:42
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Spencer for Hire was my mom's favorite show when I was a kid, she used to watch DS9 with me all the time.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:57
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WickedHate posted:But theft isn't rape, and even as far as theft goes, it's remarkably harmless. Still not [I]good[I] to take genetic samples without permission, but it's not exactly the same life altering decisions. If I remember right, in order to take the samples, the aliens knocked out Riker and Pulaski and then inserted big scary looking needles into their abdomens. I'm pretty sure most people would be super pissed off if that was done to them without their consent.
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Jul 14, 2016 22:59
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So let's say your young daughter falls into a time portal and comes out 18 years old and crazy. Would you; A) try and send her to the best starfleet medical center for rehabilitation Or B) throw her back in time to live in seclusion with no medicine and die alone. Also give her a doll. Seriously what the hell? They had no idea that would send young Molly back, they were just condemning their daughter to a life alone forever on a horrible prehistoric planet.
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Jul 14, 2016 23:09
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:Seriously what the hell? They had no idea that would send young Molly back, they were just condemning their daughter to a life alone forever on a horrible prehistoric planet. Sounds like somebody flunked Temporal Paradox Mechanics II at the academy
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Jul 14, 2016 23:20
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Trent posted:Sounds like somebody flunked Temporal Paradox Mechanics II at the academy  Is that a joke? We hate those.
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Jul 15, 2016 00:10
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Hi TVIV star trek thread, I thought there was only the one trek thread in GBS. Am I allowed to post in both? I like startrek enough to post in 2 threads about it.
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Jul 15, 2016 01:25
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Baronjutter posted:Hi TVIV star trek thread, I thought there was only the one trek thread in GBS. Am I allowed to post in both? I like startrek enough to post in 2 threads about it. I've been posting in both for ages, mods haven't caught on yet
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Jul 15, 2016 01:37
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Posting in one Star Trek thread should be grounds for institutionalization.
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Jul 15, 2016 01:44
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