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Kyle takes plenty of non physical head trauma from being Kyle.
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Jul 15, 2016 10:08
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| # ? May 17, 2024 18:16 |
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Kyle takes plenty of non physical head trauma from being Kyle. Before Omega Men I would say John had more trauma with the wife killed and causing the destruction of a planet.
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Jul 15, 2016 15:03
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Batgirl Bop Rebirth #1 preview http://www.newsarama.com/30156-preview-babs-dinah-are-back-together-in-batgirl-and-the-birds-of-prey-rebirth-1.html
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Jul 15, 2016 23:33
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Argh, so she WAS Oracle now? I get that Rebirth is specially to allow poo poo like this, but good lord, make up your minds, people!
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Jul 15, 2016 23:50
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They should reintroduce Hypertime, but make it an energy drink that characters can drink whenever they feel like changing their backstory.
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Jul 16, 2016 00:12
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X-O posted:I have to admit the first three issues of Rucka's Wonder Woman have left me completely underwhelmed. It was one of the books I was most excited for and I'm just not really digging it so far. I'm not sure if it's a product of hype or a product of really loving Legend of Wonder Woman so much that anything pretty much pales in comparison to it. Even something by Rucka. Legend of Wonder Woman is good, but... it's not in the same league. I just can't compare it to this. X-O posted:I did really like Nicola Scott's art. Again, it's no Renae De Liz, but it's the strongest part of Rucka's book so far. Sharp's art is fine but nothing I'm crazy about. Oh man c'mon, De Liz cannot hold a candle to Scott. Again, different league. When I first started reading it, I thought LoWW was really good. I've since come off it a bit, haven't read it for a few months. The art is still good, but the writing started to lose my interest. Once Diana made it to America, the story felt flat to me, and the dialogue was uninteresting. JoshTheStampede posted:The only argument I can see is that they shouldn't have cropped his art or modified it without his permission. Either use it as drawn or don't use it. That may be your argument, but it goes against what's actually done. Art, and especially covers, and modified or cropped all the time. I know it's happened to Cho several times. It's just something that happens. In fact, I bet it's part of the work-for-hire agreement. BrianWilly posted:There's also a little hint of this in the most recent WW issue, where the Amazon Kasia says "I'd sooner forget what I remember, my friend. My life as a woman slain at the hands of the man who took offense at my refusal of him? No, thank you." It's a little gramatically-interpretable, but it seems like she's talking about having been killed in the outside world and then being reborn in Themyscira. This really caught my attention, very interesting. Didn't know it had roots back in the Perez run. Gaz-L posted:Argh, so she WAS Oracle now? I get that Rebirth is specially to allow poo poo like this, but good lord, make up your minds, people! Can't get upset when they're making the right changes.
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Jul 16, 2016 00:15
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Hey now, saying that De Liz can't hold a candle to Scott is a bit much. Frankly, I think far more artists could stand to be as expressive and dynamic as De Liz. Her use of light, colors, and action is inimitable.    
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Jul 16, 2016 00:57
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Isn't Ray Dillon her inker/colorist? (He's also her husband)
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Jul 16, 2016 01:09
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X-O posted:I have to admit the first three issues of Rucka's Wonder Woman have left me completely underwhelmed. It was one of the books I was most excited for and I'm just not really digging it so far. I'm not sure if it's a product of hype or a product of really loving Legend of Wonder Woman so much that anything pretty much pales in comparison to it. Even something by Rucka. I think the first issue of Year One, barring the fact that it's the 4th version of the origin in the last year, was easily as good, if not better, than any of the other 'big' books from the Rebirth relaunch. I agree that the other story needs something big, fast, however. Nightwing was also pretty drat great, although I did laugh a little at the blatant plug for Birds of Prey. And more of Damian at the arcade. Although, where the gently caress did Dick FIND an arcade in this day and age? I'd have bought if Bruce HAD one in the mansion, but a random one in the city?
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Jul 16, 2016 01:21
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Gotham has always been a bit anachronistic. But they still exist. They're making a resurgence with barcades.
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Jul 16, 2016 01:27
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Detective No. 27 posted:Gotham has always been a bit anachronistic. But they still exist. They're making a resurgence with barcades. There's a super lovely one that opened in my moderately sized city last year.
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Jul 16, 2016 01:29
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Seeley tipped his hand really heavily in that issue though. It's really obvious that the title of the first arc refers to Dick himself. The Owls don't want Agent 37, they want NIGHTWING. Because he's Better Than Batman, obviously. I realise this was probably double-obvious if you were reading Grayson, but I wasn't.
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Jul 16, 2016 01:36
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Gaz-L posted:Argh, so she WAS Oracle now? I get that Rebirth is specially to allow poo poo like this, but good lord, make up your minds, people!
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Jul 16, 2016 01:54
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DC heard that people hated The Killing Joke's treatment of Barbara, but they waited until after years and years of writers basically revived her and made the best of a bad situation. DC is tonedeaf and so just threw the baby out with the bathwater and then was surprised when people said they liked Oracle.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:10
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I never read TKJ myself but my impression was that people who disliked Oracle mostly just disliked how the thing that created the character was a story about Barbra being sexually assaulted and nearly murdered, and then the story focuses on how this makes Batman and Gordon feel. I've never really seen anyone who just hated Oracle as a character. (Again; never read TKJ, know only the general overview of the story, could totally be wrong on any of this)
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Jul 16, 2016 02:39
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The typical perception I see is that while TKJ was a pretty nasty story which a lot of people don't like, Barbara becoming Oracle as a means of working through her new disability was a fantastic thing to come out of it and it made her a much more interesting character in the long run. So yeah, while Oracle is great as a character, the circumstances that brought her to be are upsetting to many people. e: Personally I think they never should have undone it. Oracle was a success story and an inspiration for people who get crippled. Making her "get better" ruins that.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:46
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DrProsek posted:I never read TKJ myself but my impression was that people who disliked Oracle mostly just disliked how the thing that created the character was a story about Barbra being sexually assaulted and nearly murdered, and then the story focuses on how this makes Batman and Gordon feel. I've never really seen anyone who just hated Oracle as a character. Yeah this is spot on. DC apparently has trouble distinguishing between those two things though.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:47
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JoshTheStampede posted:DC heard that people hated The Killing Joke's treatment of Barbara, but they waited until after years and years of writers basically revived her and made the best of a bad situation. They kept the bathwater, though. There has never been any serious attempt at retconning TKJ away. Even since getting out of the wheelchair the comics have referenced the shooting quite a bit, usually with a hawaiian shirt and a falling coffee cup as visual shorthand.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:49
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Travis343 posted:They kept the bathwater, though. There has never been any serious attempt at retconning TKJ away. Even since getting out of the wheelchair the comics have referenced the shooting quite a bit, usually with a hawaiian shirt and a falling coffee cup as visual shorthand. Yeah, Stewart and Tarr expressly tried to retcon TKJ and editorial said no because it's their highest selling graphic novel.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:50
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JoshTheStampede posted:Yeah this is spot on. DC apparently has trouble distinguishing between those two things though. Well then, that's pretty disappointing. In fairness if they insist on TKJ being part of main DC cannon, then there's not really much they can do other than rewrite TKJ from Barbra's perspective but this late it'd just be "here's a book about Barbra being traumatized a whole bunch, you're welcome!". I guess there's the option to downplay and ignore TKJ as much as possible going forward, but I somehow don't see DC doing that.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:27
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The Arkham games usedThe Killing Joke in but had Barbara shot rather than shot and molested. It's a small change but I think it is basically the one that makes Oracle tragic-but-palatable instead of forcing a horrifying molestation as a key central part of a character's backstory. Barbara being injured and overcoming her injury to become a powerful and important hero isn't a bad story. It's the sexual element and the fact it comes from a story where she is injured only so other people care about it.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:33
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Yeah, the thing about fridging isn't that it's wrong to have bad things happen to female characters, but how much women-get killed or raped or brutalized just to serve as motivation and angst in a white man's story. It's like...the tragedy isn't about the actual victim, just how much it makes the hero(s) feel. The Killing Joke is one of the worst examples of it. Barbara gets paralyzed and sexually assaulted, but it's just to torment Gordon.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:44
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Huh I played all of Arkham Knight and remember there was a scene reenacting TKJ but I didn't notice if they had her get molested or just shot. Yeah changing it to her just being shot without the sexual assault part would actually work (or it would at least be noticeably less bad).
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Jul 16, 2016 03:45
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Holy loving poo poo, what is this from? This looks amazing.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:47
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I don't know, I have it on good authority that it's a crime akin to murder to change Alan Moore works.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:48
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Aphrodite posted:I don't know, I have it on good authority that it's a crime akin to murder to change Alan Moore works. I can't wait until V is folded into the DCU.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:50
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Rhyno posted:I can't wait until V is folded into the DCU. It's very fortunate for Moore/everyone reading DC that the big iconic character of the story is explicitly dead at the end and the whole story is pointless if you try to write an ending where he's not. ... But part of me can't help but wonder "but would that really stop anyone if someone really decided they wanted V to be in the DCU?"
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Jul 16, 2016 03:59
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Nothing will stop them. I bet the only person who can defeat the Watchmen is V.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:03
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My opinion on TKJ is that it's a dark piece of DC's history in a lot of ways and we shouldn't try to retcon it away because we don't like it. I don't like what happened in it, but the fact is it happened. It's still DC's highest selling graphic novel, right up there with books like Watchmen and V for Vendetta. DC insists on keeping it continuity despite Alan Moore's original intent to make it a standalone, so that's that. Oracle existed for over 20 years, and while she wasn't a direct product of TKJ, her creation would have never occurred if it didn't happen. Ostrander would never have a reason to create Barbara as Oracle for Suicide Squad had she not been crippled. We can't erase history just because we don't like it. But I agree that the molestation part of it was always the worst part and never once made sense for the Joker to do. Shooting her and taking pictures fulfills his desire to make Gordon go insane without adding that poo poo onto it. And I understand the desire from people like the former Batgirl team to distance Barbara from it, but fact is it's still part of her history. Retconning away any of it, be it the events of the book or Barbara's time as Oracle, doesn't feel right. This is why I like Batgirl and the BOP's approach. It isn't quite the same for a number of reasons, but it keeps the unfortunate history and the good that came from it intact. Now, does this all mean we need to keep bringing it up? No, not really, but we also shouldn't pretend like it never happened.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:25
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lotus circle posted:
I mean, you make decent points with the rest of your post, but this is loving comic books we're talking about. None of this poo poo actually happened so maybe let's not act like this is Japan refusing to acknowledge Nanking or some poo poo.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:30
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Rhyno posted:Nothing will stop them. I bet the only person who can defeat the Watchmen is V. We already have a V stand in, the red hood.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:31
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I wish Batgirl's history wasn't so tied up with it. You don't see Bruce getting his back broken referenced nearly as much with regards to him. It's like her version of Hank Pym hitting Janet.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:32
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bobkatt013 posted:Before Omega Men I would say John had more trauma with the wife killed and causing the destruction of a planet. Oh no, Kyle definitely wins the battle of the most traumatic GL. That's just the entire point of his character, to get knocked down, then get up again, because you're never going to keep him down.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:36
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Rhyno posted:Nothing will stop them. I bet the only person who can defeat the Watchmen is V. I honestly want to see this happen now.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:37
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lotus circle posted:My opinion on TKJ is that it's a dark piece of DC's history in a lot of ways and we shouldn't try to retcon it away because we don't like it. I don't like what happened in it, but the fact is it happened. It's still DC's highest selling graphic novel, right up there with books like Watchmen and V for Vendetta. DC insists on keeping it continuity despite Alan Moore's original intent to make it a standalone, so that's that. Oracle existed for over 20 years, and while she wasn't a direct product of TKJ, her creation would have never occurred if it didn't happen. Ostrander would never have a reason to create Barbara as Oracle for Suicide Squad had she not been crippled. I don't really think anyone disagrees with your overall thesis that "without TKJ you lose Oracle, and losing Oracle would suck too much to do that", but retconning specific elements out of a story while leaving the overall story intact is a pretty routine thing for comics. Sure, it's not always the best route to retcon problematic things, especially when they're far off in the past, but since DC's doing the whole reconciling past cannon and present day cannon thing right now and there's a TKJ movie coming out, it kinda would make sense for DC to think about how to keep TKJ part of the DCU while cleaning up the parts that are the most problematic about it.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:47
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Isn't the V comic pretty different from the movie version people actually care about?WickedHate posted:I wish Batgirl's history wasn't so tied up with it. You don't see Bruce getting his back broken referenced nearly as much with regards to him. It's like her version of Hank Pym hitting Janet. That's because he was fixed quickly. Oracle lasted like 20 years.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:59
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Aphrodite posted:Isn't the V comic pretty different from the movie version people actually care about? It has been a while since I've seen either but iirc the comic much more dystopian; the fascists are democratically elected and the book makes more of a deal out of the fascists ruling through the general acceptance of the British people, and V is more of an anarchist terrorist than a liberal revolutionary,
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Jul 16, 2016 05:05
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Oops, I meant "V from the comic" Like I'd always heard the character himself was changed pretty heavily, and basically all the stuff people latched on to were from the movie.
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Jul 16, 2016 05:08
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But the "ideas are bulletproof" scene was like, really cool.
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Jul 16, 2016 05:12
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Honestly I think Ostrander deserves all the credit for Oracle's creation because credit should belong to someone cleaning up a mess, not the person who spilled poo poo on the floor.
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Jul 16, 2016 05:25
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