|
JoshTheStampede posted:Yeah, Stewart and Tarr expressly tried to retcon TKJ I keep hearing people say this and I just don't see how it's true. The entire scene where people say "Oh they tried to retcon TKJ" comes in a story about a villain screwing with Barbara's memories. Like, if you dislike Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr's run with the character, that's fine, but it seems like you're deliberately misreading things just to poo poo talk a story you don't like.
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 05:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
To be honest, I really like The Killing Joke and think it's a fantastic story, but I don't think Joker taking nude pics of Barbra really adds anything to it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 05:34
|
|
|
Most retellings downplay the sexual assault so much that you probably wouldn't even know it happened unless you read the original story, and even in there it was kinda vague. I certainly didn't know about it for a long time, and I came into DC at a period when they were, like, re-showing that scene of Joker shooting Barbara every other week.catlord posted:Holy loving poo poo, what is this from? This looks amazing. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 05:59
|
|
|
Roth posted:To be honest, I really like The Killing Joke and think it's a fantastic story, but I don't think Joker taking nude pics of Barbra really adds anything to it. He was really really trying to break Gordon. So that would be a pretty effective way to do it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 06:08
|
|
|
Codependent Poster posted:He was really really trying to break Gordon. So that would be a pretty effective way to do it. I suppose, but already having crippled her and gloating about it would have gotten the point across I think. The photos just feel kinda gratuitous to me. I guess this could just be a case where I'm more just against the concept because I feel that rape/sexual assault is something that really doesn't belong in mainstream superhero comics than because I think it actively makes the story worse.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 06:14
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:I mean, you make decent points with the rest of your post, but this is loving comic books we're talking about. None of this poo poo actually happened so maybe let's not act like this is Japan refusing to acknowledge Nanking or some poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 06:59
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:But the "ideas are bulletproof" scene was like, really cool. That happened in the book too. Though under very different circumstances.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 10:06
|
|
|
Roth posted:I suppose, but already having crippled her and gloating about it would have gotten the point across I think. The photos just feel kinda gratuitous to me. It depends on the story. With this as an out of continuity story, the naked pictures make sense because the Joker has no line he won't cross to win. Winning is breaking Gordon at any cost. It's why I like the interpretation that Batman kills him at the end. Gordon proves himself better than both. In continuity, yeah, it's too much. The Joker shouldn't come back as just a recurring supervillain. It's almost the same problem they had when they turned Dr. Light into a rapist and then he became Dr. Rape who wanted to rape everyone. For a serial story, you can't make characters cross some lines and expect to go back to standard superhero stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 10:47
|
|
|
Call me a pearl-clutcher but I feel like there's some characters that should be safe for kids to get into. Most people get into comics as little kids reading Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc. and I feel like comics really loses something bringing something to certain characters that is on that tier of adult content. I feel that this is part of the reason Big 2 superhero books are dying off and you'll notice all the hot new titles that are selling like hotcakes and bringing in new readers are the fun, accessible titles like Ms. Marvel, Batgirl, etc. that younger people can get into without worrying about that kind of poo poo. I think there's definitely a space for that content in comics, and even in superhero comics, but trying to graft something that serious on to characters that are absolutely not set up to support that kind of weight is a recipe for disaster.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 13:54
|
|
|
It came out as a Prestige Graphic Novel, so probably deliberately out of the newstands little Timmy and Sally would get their funny books at. E: Did it originally warn of adult content? Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jul 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 13:58
|
|
|
I think my biggest problem with TKJ is how the animated movies are using it. Batgirl hasn't been in the animated films other than showing up and saying nothing at the end of Bad Blood. The next big film is going to be The Killing Joke. So not only will it be a story where Barbra goes through a whole bunch of physical and mental trauma so that Batman and Gordon can be sad about it, it's also going to be the Barbra Gordon origin story for the films. I suppose you could say the animated movies are for comics fans so we know who Barbra is and this presumably isn't the viewers' first introduction to Barbra Gordon, but I still feel like compared to how the other Bat family members were introduced to the DC animated universe, Barbra's getting the worst introduction behind Batwoman (where her backstory is changed slightly to make her a lot less competent).
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:09
|
|
|
Roth posted:To be honest, I really like The Killing Joke and think it's a fantastic story, but I don't think Joker taking nude pics of Barbra really adds anything to it. The ending scene between Batman and the Joker is, honestly, perfect. It's too bad those few pages are attached to the rest of the garbage fire.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:12
|
|
|
DrProsek posted:I think my biggest problem with TKJ is how the animated movies are using it. Batgirl hasn't been in the animated films other than showing up and saying nothing at the end of Bad Blood. The next big film is going to be The Killing Joke. So not only will it be a story where Barbra goes through a whole bunch of physical and mental trauma so that Batman and Gordon can be sad about it, it's also going to be the Barbra Gordon origin story for the films. The animated movies aren't really a new DC Animated Universe. They're rough adaptations of stories from the comics, some are in continuity with each other, some aren't. Year One, DKR, and now TKJ are probably just there because they're popular enough comics.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:18
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:The animated movies aren't really a new DC Animated Universe. They're rough adaptations of stories from the comics, some are in continuity with each other, some aren't. Year One, DKR, and now TKJ are probably just there because they're popular enough comics. True, I guess I didn't really mean introduction into the animated film continuity so much as it's the first animated film to use the character and it's TKJ.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:22
|
|
|
DrProsek posted:True, I guess I didn't really mean introduction into the animated film continuity so much as it's the first animated film to use the character and it's TKJ. I really hope nobody's watching those animated movies as their only consumption of Bat-stories. That's a super depressing thought. e: ugh somebody definitely is, though
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:46
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:I really hope nobody's watching those animated movies as their only consumption of Bat-stories. That's a super depressing thought. I remember chatting to someone at a bus stop who knew who Damian Wayne was but who had never read a comic, so yeah, it happens.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:53
|
|
|
TwoPair posted:I keep hearing people say this and I just don't see how it's true. The entire scene where people say "Oh they tried to retcon TKJ" comes in a story about a villain screwing with Barbara's memories. Like, if you dislike Stewart/Fletcher/Tarr's run with the character, that's fine, but it seems like you're deliberately misreading things just to poo poo talk a story you don't like. No, I'm repeating things Tarr and Stewart said in a panel. They asked if they could retcon TKJ and were told no. I wasn't talking about the scene that actually made it in, that was their compromise.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 14:55
|
|
|
DrProsek posted:I think my biggest problem with TKJ is how the animated movies are using it. Batgirl hasn't been in the animated films other than showing up and saying nothing at the end of Bad Blood. The next big film is going to be The Killing Joke. So not only will it be a story where Barbra goes through a whole bunch of physical and mental trauma so that Batman and Gordon can be sad about it, it's also going to be the Barbra Gordon origin story for the films.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:08
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:I don't know, I have it on good authority that it's a crime akin to murder to change Alan Moore works. Alan Moore hates the Killing Joke though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:20
|
|
|
Alan Moore is a grump about everything. (but in this case, he's right)
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:22
|
|
|
Frank Cho has elaborated on his story.quote:Wonder Woman was my dream job at DC Comics. I love and respect the character very much. When I was invited by DC to draw the 24 variant covers for Wonder Woman, I was ecstatic. I was told that I had complete freedom on the variant covers and the only person in charge of me was the senior art director, Mark Chiarello, who I greatly respect. Win-win for everyone. Emphasis mine.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:26
|
|
|
Rucka sounds like a real dick asking Cho to make his arts on-model.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
I like how he seems to think making great WW comics is somehow accomplished through variant covers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:51
|
|
|
Rucka sounds like a dick for getting all pissy about some gorgeous variant covers. He must have gotten DC by the balls when they wanted him back for another go at Wonder Woman.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:53
|
|
|
Everything we've heard is from Cho, Rucka has not commented at all yet so I'm waiting to hear something from Mark Chiarello or anyone at DC other than the vague stuff that I posted earlier.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 16:56
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Alan Moore hates the Killing Joke though. Yeah I'm sure he wishes he made the sexual assault more explicit, and also that Barbara was 5 years younger.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 17:25
|
|
|
I'm a huge fan of both Rucka and Cho, and I don't think that his last cover was really that titillating, but Rucka's totally within his rights to ask for revisions, especially since Cho's just doing covers. That said, if DC promised notorious Dirty Boy Cho creative freedom, then this is clearly, once again, mostly DC editorial's fault.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 17:32
|
|
|
Die Laughing posted:Rucka sounds like a dick for getting all pissy about some gorgeous variant covers. He must have gotten DC by the balls when they wanted him back for another go at Wonder Woman. It was Ruckas book, they gave him control and he didn't want some Mediocre covers ruining that. It happens all the time but Cho is a giant baby so.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
vseslav.botkin posted:I'm a huge fan of both Rucka and Cho, and I don't think that his last cover was really that titillating, but Rucka's totally within his rights to ask for revisions, especially since Cho's just doing covers. You're assuming an awful lot taking Cho at his word here considering his history of poo poo-stirring and painting himself as the heroic champion of artistic freedom against a horde of fun-hating PC thugs desperate to silence his first amendment rights. I don't blame Rucka for not wanting Cho anywhere near his Wonder Woman. He's a great artist but something like this was 100% guaranteed to happen from the second Cho got handed variant cover duties. I wouldn't be shocked if DC did this on purpose for some free controversy/publicity, they have to know the kind of rep Cho is working with at this point. And if I was Rucka, complete creative control over the printed product that hits the stands would absolutely be a pre-req for me to get back in bed with DC. I don't blame him whatsoever. I feel like the most accurate version of this is something like: Cho: *draws panties* Rucka: Do we really need to see the panties, though Cho: loving sjws *stomps off in a huff, slams door*
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
Even with Cho telling his side of the story with no word at all from Rucka, this sounds like Cho and Rucka were promised different things when they came onboard, those promised conflicted, the writer's promises won out over the variant cover artist. Doesn't sound like Rucka and PC gone wild, just that DC promised both guys the same final call on variant covers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 18:05
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:You're assuming an awful lot taking Cho at his word here considering his history of poo poo-stirring and painting himself as the heroic champion of artistic freedom against a horde of fun-hating PC thugs desperate to silence his first amendment rights. Cho loves to stir poo poo, but as far as I know he's not much for lying. And I think I'm assuming more based on DC's track record. I see it going more like this: Cho: *draws panties* DC: Those are some top notch panties! Do you want to draw Wonder Woman? Cho: okay but I want creative control DC: sure Rucka: *is not a dirty boy* DC: do you want to write Wonder Woman? Rucka: no. DC: we'll give you creative control Rucka: well, okay Cho: *draws panties* Rucka: Do we really need to see the panties, though DC: *crops panties* Cho: loving sjws *stomps off in a huff, slams door* This is some frog and scorpion poo poo, except the scorpion draws pictures of beefy naked ladies.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 18:10
|
|
|
Die Laughing posted:Rucka sounds like a dick for getting all pissy about some gorgeous variant covers. He must have gotten DC by the balls when they wanted him back for another go at Wonder Woman. Wasn't one of the other conditions in Rucka's contract that Wonder Woman is no longer the remit of Eddie Berganza? That makes two awful people not working on Wondy any more because of Rucka. Good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 18:23
|
|
|
DC needs Rucka way more than Rucka needs DC. He's a big enough name in the industry that he will always get either guaranteed work or be capable of living off self-published comics. The only reason he came back to DC was because they allowed him to do the Wonder Woman Year One story that he was promised as an OGN before they handed it to Morrison. So yeah, no surprise they gave Rucka so much control over how his Wonder Woman comic was presented including variants. And frankly Cho has made a name for himself off controversy with those sketch "Outrage" variant covers, and it is no surprise that Rucka is not a fan of his when he's such an rear end.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
It's really unfortunate that Cho can't stop himself from being a fedora wearing red piller, because he's got some drat good chops. Almost as good as Terry Moore.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
I really really liked New Superman. Kenan's whole thing with his mom dying in a plane crash and then seeing a clip of Superman he'd never seen before where he rescues a plane, then dreaming about rescuing his mother was really poignant. And his being a dick being revealed as him doing something he knew was wrong but did anyway because he was emotionally damaged and linked this kid to his mother's death and had trouble regulating was good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:17
|
|
|
lotus circle posted:So yeah, no surprise they gave Rucka so much control over how his Wonder Woman comic was presented including variants. And frankly Cho has made a name for himself off controversy with those sketch "Outrage" variant covers, and it is no surprise that Rucka is not a fan of his when he's such an rear end. Yeah, if what Cho says is true then it's bad that DC promised both guys creative control over the variant covers while knowing they were going to ultimately give Rucka control, but between making himself the "Outrage!" guy and being surprised DC took sides with the well known writer over the variant cover artist, I think Cho just doesn't understand the business he's in. DC was changing Wonder Woman's editor just so Rucka would come write her. They weren't about to risk losing him to please a variant cover artist with a reputation for being a giant crybaby who is obsessed with pissing off "SJWs", especially not for Wonder Woman. You can't have it both ways where you're the guy who does what he wants, pissing off the tumblrs, and laughs at the OUTRAGE! and then turn around and insist DC show you the same respect they show someone like Greg Rucka.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:32
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:Before Omega Men I would say John had more trauma with the wife killed and causing the destruction of a planet. Off the top of my head Kyle brought his mother back to life then watched her beg him to let her die.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 21:55
|
|
|
Travis343 posted:You're assuming an awful lot taking Cho at his word here considering his history of poo poo-stirring and painting himself as the heroic champion of artistic freedom against a horde of fun-hating PC thugs desperate to silence his first amendment rights. Remember. this is the guy who said he would "bow out quietly" in the second crybaby drama Internet posting. His version of events may be 100% truthful, and while I'd still agree with Rucka, he may have been an pissy rear end in a top hat about it like Cho says. But I have a really hard time believing him because of the way he's presenting the story. greatn posted:I really really liked New Superman. Kenan's whole thing with his mom dying in a plane crash and then seeing a clip of Superman he'd never seen before where he rescues a plane, then dreaming about rescuing his mother was really poignant. I thought the story was fine, but this really bugged me. When I read it, I didn't see the poignantness of this, because seeing him react that way to the video really through me off. When I read that season, it nearly read like he had never seen a video of Superman do something 'super' before. I knew this wasn't the case, though. Why does Superman catching a plane excite him, regardless of if he'd seen that exact video before or not? Because of his mom? Okay, but... stopping crashing planes is like in the top three of Superman heroic cliches. This video would be as unremarkable in his world as a great sports highlight. Everyone loves Superman, and everyone loves to see him do something awesome, but they've seen him do this a lot. They take it in, then move on. We're not surprised when Ortiz hits a home run. Maybe this should have gone the exact opposite. Instead of Kenan never seeing the video before, not only has he, but it's his favorite video. People would wonder, why? He's catching a plane, big deal. Seems like he does that on a weekly basis. He loves it because it is his ultimate fantasy: a superhero being there to save his mom's plane. I mean, come on, are you telling me that day is the first day that he ever wished that Superman would have been there for his mom? Are you trying to tell me that him being shown that video was the first time that this idea come to him? I didn't care for the bullying thing either, but I'm willing to accept that maybe it'll work better as the story goes on. As it stands now, it sucks seeing a bully become Superman. Yeah, he's obviously going to learn about great responsibility, and fat boy will probably become the Ganke to his Miles, but I think that will be hard to pull off without it feeling forced.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2016 04:32
|
|
|
There would be reports of Superman doing poo poo all over, but he does so much a lot of it would just be noise and filtered down to thwarting alien invasions. I'd think video of him catching planes would actually be somewhat rare, especially in a country with strict controls over its internet. It's different hearing about a superhero largely in another country doing lots of stuff and then seeing him do something extremely specific and extremely relevant to you. In his experience his news media probably only covers him insomuch as it either directly affects China or embarrasses a rival nation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2016 05:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 00:29 |
|
|
Unless the story is about it, acts of super heroism are never treated as mundane.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2016 05:18
|
|