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Pierzak posted:Can you elaborate? I wanna know if it's actually feasible and not excessively risky to have e.g. 5 enemy dudes behind a 3m wide barricade 20m away and have LOF only to one specific guy only while avoiding LOF to all the others and also being glued to the edge of the wall you're using as cover. Assume no ambush, and no overwhelming difference in training/equipment. Sure thing. The term comes from real world application, so you can google "slicing the pie" if you want more info. Basically, you use the wall, window, or corner to provide cover and sweep out in such a way that you only reveal a narrow slice at a time.  So yeah, the guys can be standing next to each other, but only one will have visibility to you at a time. Its easier to do in real life than the game. You slice pie until someone comes into your line of fire and then you shoot them. Repeat until the area is clear or one of them shoots you. Edit: You do lose cover if you slice pie properly in infinity. The nudging out a little at a time geometry equation seems like a reasonable approximation. Edit2: My biggest question is "which version plays better, assuming no one is an rear end in a top hat?" I'm all about both sides pointing out possible AROs and generally hate Warmachine style gotchas (TO Camo is an obvious exception, since it is doing exactly what it should be doing). I don't have enough experience to make that call, but suppressive fire seems awesome enough that I'm not terribly worried about whoever's making AROs just getting steamrolled. It also seems to favor high quality expensive troops, which I'm alright with. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 22:58
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Sir Teabag posted:I feel like, as long as your opponent knows what could be coming their way, it's all fair game. Maybe don't break out TO camo Oniwaban in hidden deployment with superior infiltration against someone playing their first game. But other wise going "yup, that doesn't add up to 300 points this is going to suck" and trying to anticipate the sucker punch is just part of the fun. Hidden information is really not that bad at all. It's not like you're going to know what a lot of your opponents units are anyway unless (until?) you get an encyclopedic knowledge of the miniature range and rules. I love the hidden information part of the game! But uhh I play ariadna so...
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Jul 17, 2016 23:34
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The hidden information makes this game IMO. TO, AD, deceptive Lts, camo shennanigans... it means you can't look at a table and (public) lists and say exactly how it's going to go down.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:52
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I feel like losing orders if you have a ton of dudes in hidden deployment or in reserve helps to balance it out a lot.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:56
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Exmond posted:I love the hidden information part of the game! But uhh I play ariadna so... 'Sup buddy :highfive: But I look at Tohaa as basically all hidden information because they have made up sci-fi alien names and lots of special rules. Haha
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Jul 18, 2016 00:07
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Exmond posted:I love the hidden information part of the game! But uhh I play ariadna so... I was looking forward to someone taking a hacker or sepsistor against me. But all my friends know I play Ariadna and I don't use many mercs. I hope the french lists come are updated some day so I can at least put out a tag on occasion.
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Jul 18, 2016 00:15
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KPC_Mammon posted:slicing the pie  Exmond posted:I love the hidden information part of the game! But uhh I play ariadna so... I love the hidden info too! I play Shasvastii 
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Jul 18, 2016 00:19
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The "must be base to base with cover" rule is purely for ease of gameplay. Otherwise you're squinting for pretty much every shot since there's almost always something in the way. With the b2b rules, you really only have to look at one spot rather than the whole sightline.
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Jul 18, 2016 00:25
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I like the hidden information, but this game at 300 points is just way to loving much to grasp. I feel like I understand the table up to 200, but once it gets to 300 I can no longer understand all the ways I can get annihilated.
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Jul 18, 2016 00:43
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Slow grows are great for that, they lead you into 300 at a good pace. Even better if you and a mate are practising the missions between rooms to get the basics solid. A lot of the older players are quite sure that certain rules work in ways they just don't.. I think I'm just getting to the point where can wrap my head around a 300 pt game, after 6 mounts and probably 20-25 games. There's still a situation every game or two which makes me grab the wiki. Also the game seems to be about being super conservative when not sure. Unless you're confident you're not gonna get in a close situation in a fire lane, don't deploy there.
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Jul 18, 2016 01:42
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Corbeau posted:The hidden information makes this game IMO. TO, AD, deceptive Lts, camo shennanigans... it means you can't look at a table and (public) lists and say exactly how it's going to go down. If the game can't survive people knowing each others' lists it probably ain't a good game. The only thing that really makes sense is the hidden LT, the other stuff just feels a lot more clunnky though I can see an Ariadna player handing an opponent a blank sheet at a tournament heaving a lot of fun. I imagine when/if I become proficient enough and have all the units memorized I can pretty easily guess what everything's going to be and what the missing stuff is from the public lists but I don't know if CB really thought this mechanic through. I think i'm too used to cut-and-dry public info games like X-wing and warmahordes that manage to have plenty of game with zero secrets in the lists. The worst offenders are hidden deployment and holoprojectors. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 03:22
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Speaking of hidden info, I observed an interesting interaction earlier today where a Hassassin Ayayayayayar was disguised as a Ghulam, but used his Free Agent skill to change order pools. This ghulam is changing groups. But you're out of Command Tokens ........ It's happening. Just let it happen.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:26
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Panzeh posted:If the game can't survive people knowing each others' lists it probably ain't a good game. The only thing that really makes sense is the hidden LT, the other stuff just feels a lot more clunnky though I can see an Ariadna player handing an opponent a blank sheet at a tournament heaving a lot of fun. I play both these games, but neither of them really offer any sort of gameplay in this area. You are right that it comes at a high cost, but stuff like paratroopers, hidden enemies, etc is a real game changer and definitely one of the reasons I thought the game was interesting in the first place.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:33
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Panzeh posted:I think i'm too used to cut-and-dry public info games like X-wing and warmahordes that manage to have plenty of game with zero secrets in the lists. See, I find Warmahordes incredibly boring (which is why I quit playing) and X-Wing has the same issue but (for me) gets carried by the theme (and by a playerbase who hasn't gone full shark, at least locally). They get played out much more easily. I only spent a couple years playing Warmachine before getting tired of it, and less for tournaments, but with Infinity there's stuff I've still not figured out tactically even after ~4 years of play. The tradeoff being that Infinity has a near-vertical learning curve, and not just in terms of rules. The implications of each special ability and piece of equipment are huge, especially for defending against them, so a newer player has almost zero chance against an experienced one unless they're deliberately pulling punches (or critfinity intervenes). Corbeau fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 03:36
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Corbeau posted:See, I find Warmahordes incredibly boring (which is why I quit playing) and X-Wing has the same issue but (for me) gets carried by the theme (and by a playerbase who hasn't gone full shark, at least locally). They get played out much more easily. I only spent a couple years playing Warmachine before getting tired of it, and less for tournaments, but with Infinity there's stuff I've still not figured out tactically even after ~4 years of play. Honestly most of the upgrades in this game aren't that complicated in and of themselves, aside from hacking, and once you get the princple of hacking just about everything else follows. The thing is, as a shark, I could try to memorize every single point cost, look at the list, and get a pretty good idea of most of the hidden options but it strikes me as one of those un-fun bits of the game you have to get through to get to the good part of the game. Hey look i mathed out that the missing points in this USAriadna list exactly matches up to van zant and something else, etc. Then there's holoprojectors and hidden deployment which introduces a bunch of "just trust me" type stuff.
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Jul 18, 2016 03:58
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If you have a problem with the "just trust me" stuff, then have your opponent write down the hidden deployment and number his holoprojectors. You know, like it says in the rules you should.
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Jul 18, 2016 06:52
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Panzeh posted:Then there's holoprojectors and hidden deployment which introduces a bunch of "just trust me" type stuff. One of the things I love about Infinity is its extremely tactical nature. When teaching the game to new people, especially people with a military background, it's easy to say, "Don't worry about the rules; just think about what approach you would take when faced with this situation, and do that. Chances are extremely good that the rules for whatever that is are probably your best bet." That's something that very few other games can claim.
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Jul 18, 2016 06:55
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Our meta has the habit of taking photos of the table on a smartphone while our opponent walks away, regardless of if we have TO/Parachutist or not
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Jul 18, 2016 10:07
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IJW has a set of hidden info sheets which are really handy, just print them out and cut them up with a guillotine and hand them out at events, or just laminate a bigger copy and re-use it. I'll post them in the thread when I get home.
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Jul 18, 2016 10:20
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Played for the first time in forever, opponent insisted we play 300 points ITS even though I'm new. I build a list in the dark, playing NCA and took my favorite boy of all time Aquila Guard. He is playing Ariadna...I think my Aquila Guard may have to face charges after the amount of war crimes he committed. He almost tabled the other side single handed. Sometimes Infinity is awesome.
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Jul 19, 2016 04:36
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Mugaaz posted:Played for the first time in forever, opponent insisted we play 300 points ITS even though I'm new. I build a list in the dark, playing NCA and took my favorite boy of all time Aquila Guard. He is playing Ariadna...I think my Aquila Guard may have to face charges after the amount of war crimes he committed. He almost tabled the other side single handed. Sometimes Infinity is awesome. That's really awesome, congrats! Sort of related, as I'm playing my first match in a long time tomorrow, 300pts Firefight. Anything I should keep in mind when building my list? Playing USARF. Never played USARF or firefight before, so any and all tips are welcome!
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Jul 19, 2016 16:32
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ITS, YAMS, or 20x20 for my first post icestorm scenario play? It'll be low points, still adding rules. Need something to keep the game snappy and encourage aggressive play. Which reminds me, don't add the supressing fire rule/action to the first two icestorm missions. Third seems like a maybe, but 4th you have 2 units that can take on suppressing fire so maybe it would be alright?
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Jul 19, 2016 17:00
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I really like 20x20. It has a nice variety in mission structure and is nowhere near as laser-focused on specialist troops as ITS is. A much wider variety of lists and troops types will be broadly useful in a 20x20 mission than in an ITS mission (where a bad list can straight-up cripple you).
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Jul 19, 2016 17:21
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Here's my list for tomorrow's firefight. What do you guys think? USAriadna Ranger Force────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1   8  1  1 MAVERICK Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21) GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10) GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) VAN ZANT AP Rifle / Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 38) MINUTEMAN Boarding Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 24) HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)GROUP 2 4 2 2 DEVIL DOG Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades + 1 K-9 Antipode / AP Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 30) K-9 ANTIPODE AP CCW. (7) DEVIL DOG Heavy Shotgun, Smoke Grenades + 1 K-9 Antipode / AP CCW. (0 | 39) K-9 ANTIPODE AP CCW. (7) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) FOXTROT Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) FOXTROT Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17) GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)2.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army
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Jul 19, 2016 18:42
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Flip the FO Foxtrot and the Hardcase. That second order pool is gonna shred itself, and you'll want plenty of orders to mess around with the Link/Mav/VZant. Consider throwing in one of the MSV Marauders, 'cause you're gonna have problems with anything Camo/TO/ODD (the Mav is pretty bad at fair fights). I'm also not exactly sure what a Firefight entails, but you're low on specialists if you're looking to claim ITS Classifieds.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:30
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I'd cut the Hardcase and one of the DD teams for two Airborne FOs. You can either drop them on the panoplies or you can let them buddy up with Van Zant to go specialist hunting in the enemy's backfield.
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Jul 19, 2016 21:09
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That's pretty rough order wise. Being down three orders from an effective 15 order list is rough. I also just noticed you don't have a full order pool in Group 1. Always have a full order pool in group 1.
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Jul 19, 2016 21:12
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I'd swap the Boarding Shotgun Maverick for the Rifle/FO Maverick. Such a good unit.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:23
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Ilor posted:I really like 20x20. It has a nice variety in mission structure and is nowhere near as laser-focused on specialist troops as ITS is. A much wider variety of lists and troops types will be broadly useful in a 20x20 mission than in an ITS mission (where a bad list can straight-up cripple you). Thanks! I'll give 20x20 a try. ITS sounds well beyond what I'd be up for, my model selection is pretty limited.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:42
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Something I might have missed rules wise and I don't think has ever really come up in my past games, but when is the first time that your opponent has access to your public army list? Would it be during your deployment? Or is it at any point after the scenario etc. has been chosen?
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Jul 20, 2016 01:13
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Another thing to keep in mind for 20x20 is that you don't have to roll for mission. I find it's usually better to pick to missions that compliment each other well and go from there. Rolling can be fine, but you might end up with a mission that both you and your opponent aren't well prepared for (or interested in) just because there can be so much variety. I usually find that a mixture of an objective that you both have the specialists for with a killy secondary mission are usually pretty good for pick up style games. I find that I'll pick a primary objective and then the secondary mission that goes well with it kind of sticks out. When it doubt collect dog tags is always a fun secondary mission. Hortism posted:Something I might have missed rules wise and I don't think has ever really come up in my past games, but when is the first time that your opponent has access to your public army list? Would it be during your deployment? Or is it at any point after the scenario etc. has been chosen? You pick your list after you know your opponent and know the scenario, so any time after that is fine. I usually hand my public list over just before or after the Lt. roll because once you've rolled that you're committed.
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Jul 20, 2016 02:43
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Makes sense. We usually play by deploying and then explaining what each visible model is afterwards, but that means whoever deploys first really has no idea what might be coming., Knowing what is going down when deploying first would be super helpful when dealing with bikes/long range threats. I wonder why I've never considered that before.
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Jul 20, 2016 03:41
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That's a rule that I forgot, actually. We almost never do it that way. I just deploy assuming the worst... and I don't think it'd make much difference to me, because the public list is never the really nasty stuff.
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Jul 20, 2016 03:52
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Hortism posted:Makes sense. We usually play by deploying and then explaining what each visible model is afterwards, but that means whoever deploys first really has no idea what might be coming., Knowing what is going down when deploying first would be super helpful when dealing with bikes/long range threats. I wonder why I've never considered that before. Our meta's a bit weird. At TR, I've had people argue they shouldn't have to show the public list before the roll, and become quite indignant when I countermanded them.
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Jul 20, 2016 03:52
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WAR FOOT posted:I've had people argue they shouldn't have to show the public list before the roll, and become quite indignant when I countermanded them.
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Jul 20, 2016 08:07
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At Adepticon (which I think is the 2nd largest tourney in the U.S.?) the player who had to deploy first had to give up their courtesy list as they deployed. When the first player's opponent deployed, the opponent had to share their courtesy list. I think this is a good thing. Makes the deployment choice more valuable.
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Jul 20, 2016 08:40
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Thanks for the input guys, I changed the list a fair bit. I'll post the list and some pictures from the game later. As for this: tokenbrownguy posted:That's pretty rough order wise. Being down three orders from an effective 15 order list is rough. I also just noticed you don't have a full order pool in Group 1. Always have a full order pool in group 1. I know what I'm doing, don't worry  Also, I agree on the Maverick FO being an amazing specialist, but the Molotok was too good to pass up for what I had in mind. (  )
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Jul 20, 2016 10:01
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I'm not trying to condescend. I'm bound to my own meta as much as anyone else. What's your reasoning?
tokenbrownguy fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 10:10
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Pierzak posted:Where is it written? I've always gone with the "stats are public once the model hits the table" rule of thumb, but maybe something's changed? I haven't played in a while. It's not written either way, so I make a clear ruling at the start of the tourney on the order or reveal.
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Jul 20, 2016 13:25
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Pierzak posted:Where is it written? I've always gone with the "stats are public once the model hits the table" rule of thumb, but maybe something's changed? I haven't played in a while. I do prefer this way. Sharing a list once deployment starts ruins the cool surprise of a held back Jotum as the last deployed model.
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Jul 20, 2016 13:37
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