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You don't have to pretend stuff you don't like didn't happen because it actually did not happen. That's what the "fiction" in "science fiction" means.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:28
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Apollodorus posted:You don't have to pretend stuff you don't like didn't happen because it actually did not happen. That's what the "fiction" in "science fiction" means. How dare you claim that the Historical Documents are not true!
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Jul 19, 2016 19:30
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WampaLord posted:How dare you claim that the Historical Documents are not true! You are our last hope.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:33
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I've always been most curious about the Dominion post-war. Did odo some how drastically change their culture over time and convince them that maybe solids are not lesser lifeforms that need to be oppressed/genocided? Did the dominion change at all post-war or was the treaty just "get out of alpha quadrant bye" ? Did they have to release planets or reform their empire in any way? Disarm in any way? What happens when the Dominion and Borg run into each other? Oh hey wikipedia sort of has me covered "The state of the Dominion as a political entity at the conclusion of the war has never been discussed in Star Trek canon. The terms of the final treaty ending the war were never shown. At the conclusion of the war it is assumed that the Dominion still held vast territories in the Gamma Quadrant. Odo's return to the Great Link is partially intended to share with the other changelings the information he has about how the war concluded and what he knows from living with solids; presumably, this is to change the goals and tactics of the Founders to a system that coexists with the solids as opposed to a strategy of domination. In the non-canon relaunch novels published by Pocket Books, it is revealed that the Dominion and Breen forces withdraw from Cardassian space. Through Odo's efforts, the Dominion permits visitors from the Alpha Quadrant to resume peaceful operations in the Gamma Quadrant, in exchange for leaving its territory alone. Odo then begins attempting to change the nature of the Dominion by convincing the Founders to re-evaluate their views on other species, as well as encouraging certain Vorta and Jem'Hadar to behave more independently. The allied powers begin co-ordinating relief efforts to Cardassia, using Bajor as a staging point. The Cardassian Union is divided into separate protectorates to be occupied by the allies while the Cardassians recover. For her part in orchestrating the war, the Female Founder is sentenced to life imprisonment at Ananke Alpha, a maximum security Federation prison." That all sounds fairly reasonable.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:49
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With the Beyond press-train going full steam ahead combined with the Sulu news I am seeing so many actor interviews talking about "Gene's vision" and how positive and wonderful and inclusive he was. Sure, the guy gave us Trek but I've not seen a single mention of the fact that Gene resisted the portrayal of diverse sexuality for loving years.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:57
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Robutt posted:With the Beyond press-train going full steam ahead combined with the Sulu news I am seeing so many actor interviews talking about "Gene's vision" and how positive and wonderful and inclusive he was. Sure, the guy gave us Trek but I've not seen a single mention of the fact that Gene resisted the portrayal of diverse sexuality for loving years. Thanks to whoever recommended that book about what a douchbag he is. I already knew from other stuff I read, but it just arrived the other day and I am straight up ready to devour it.
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Jul 19, 2016 19:58
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Robutt posted:With the Beyond press-train going full steam ahead combined with the Sulu news I am seeing so many actor interviews talking about "Gene's vision" and how positive and wonderful and inclusive he was. Sure, the guy gave us Trek but I've not seen a single mention of the fact that Gene resisted the portrayal of diverse sexuality for loving years. The Gene's Vision stuff will go on forever, but I think his legend has decreased significantly in the years since he died. Also everyone knows Star Trek II and VI are the good ones and the Gene-heavy TNG episodes sucked, so... (I find it impossible to dislike IV on balance but I hear a lot of back and forth on that one).
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Jul 19, 2016 20:07
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Odo was attempting to break the Jem'Hadar and Vorta of their genetic programming before he got trapped in the AQ for awhile. Also a warring race killed the Founder 'God' which caused all of the Changelings to flip out and just go their separate ways, except for Odo and Laas who was in that one DS9 episode.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:16
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:The Gene's Vision stuff will go on forever, but I think his legend has decreased significantly in the years since he died. Also everyone knows Star Trek II and VI are the good ones and the Gene-heavy TNG episodes sucked, so... Whatever "Gene's Vision" was originally arguably died with him, at this point its more what people interpret that vision to mean. You could kind of look at the different directors of the Trek films as offering their different take on that universe and that set of rules (in a way not really doable in a single TV series episode). Reminiscent of "Once More Unto the Breach" where they discuss the Alamo and what was real and what might the original truth be... in the end the importance of the original intention really isn't as important as where we choose to take it now.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:25
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Baronjutter posted:I've always been most curious about the Dominion post-war. Did odo some how drastically change their culture over time and convince them that maybe solids are not lesser lifeforms that need to be oppressed/genocided? Did the dominion change at all post-war or was the treaty just "get out of alpha quadrant bye" ? Did they have to release planets or reform their empire in any way? Disarm in any way? What happens when the Dominion and Borg run into each other? I would really like to see what becomes of the Ferengi and Cardassians post DS9. Grand Nagus Zek and later Rom enact a lot of reforms making the Ferengi more progressive and egalitarian - I think it would make sense that a reformed Ferenginar would join the Federation sometime. I'd also love to see a newly democratic, postwar Cardassia. They could take inspiration from postwar Germany, even. It sounds like the books make Garak President of Cardassia, which is rad. Speaking of that, in one of the books, Sulu becomes President of the Federation.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:29
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Gammatron 64 posted:I would really like to see what becomes of the Ferengi and Cardassians post DS9. Grand Nagus Zek and later Rom enact a lot of reforms making the Ferengi more progressive and egalitarian - I think it would make sense that a reformed Ferenginar would join the Federation sometime. No you don't. Leeta and Rom have a baby. AFAIK Barak isn't in charge, but a leading light and envoy to the Federation.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:35
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Oh yeah post-war ferrengi alliance now that they're apparently switching from sexist libertarian capitalists to feminist marxists because their fairly weak head of state has been changed. I could see Rom maybe making the ferrengi a little less awful, a slow women's rights movement that takes generations and is only proven as a good thing when it grows the economy. But to install a guy who just a few years earlier was up on a soap box quoting marx to incite a worker's movement and a union to be in charge of the most capitalist power in space, a culture that values profit and greed as beyond the Klingon's obsession with "honour" ?? I can't see that ending in anything other than Rom being assassinated or just mostly ignored.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:35
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WickedHate posted:That's not the same in ways I can't begin to explain without going cross eyed. Nah, it's exactly the same. The universe that Spock came from doesn't exist, or at the very least the causal chain leading to that particular incarnation of Spock is broken. He cannot happen any longer. And yet, there he is. Old Spock shouldn't exist, but he does, he's a paradox. First Contact can still occur precisely as the film depicts, because the E arriving at all was a paradox already. Which means the Borg episode of Enterprise can still have occurred the same way. Just because the future those events are the product of no longer exists, doesn't mean those events are different.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:37
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Baronjutter posted:Oh yeah post-war ferrengi alliance now that they're apparently switching from sexist libertarian capitalists to feminist marxists because their fairly weak head of state has been changed. Okay, so that's the realistic way to look at it, but Star Trek hasn't ever really been known for its gritty realism. It wouldn't hurt my suspension of disbelief because the Ferengi are already very cartoonish.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:40
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Okan170 posted:Whatever "Gene's Vision" was originally arguably died with him, at this point its more what people interpret that vision to mean. You could kind of look at the different directors of the Trek films as offering their different take on that universe and that set of rules (in a way not really doable in a single TV series episode). Reminiscent of "Once More Unto the Breach" where they discuss the Alamo and what was real and what might the original truth be... in the end the importance of the original intention really isn't as important as where we choose to take it now. Star Trek continues to have a unique vision of the future even when it veers wildly away from humanist absurdity. You can practically hear it in the shows' opening title music. Nominally Gene believed in the death of scarcity and interpersonal conflict between humans and vetoed any story involving it, except for all the shows where he clearly didn't, or somehow forgot. Like, in the future there is no money, except even the TOS characters tend to reference money being a thing. To name just one example where holes frequently get torn into the fabric of the Vision. In reality it is pretty clear that Gene was a cranky humanist who meddled so much with scripts that he couldn't see the forest for the trees, and for that and various other reasons was almost impossible to work with in his later years.
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Jul 19, 2016 20:43
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schmitty9800 posted:My wife insisted that if we were going to start watching DS9, we start with Season 1. About 20 episodes in she couldn't take it anymore, and I couldn't really blame her. My cries of "No, it gets massively better! Trust me! They start writing Bashir a lot better! Avery Brooks takes a while to find his character! All the best characters will be in later seasons! Garak! Weyoun! Martok! WORF, you remember him!" never worked Wait, so you actually powered through to the point where you watched Duet... and she couldn't see why the show was worth watching? 
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Jul 19, 2016 21:38
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Gammatron 64 posted:Okay, so that's the realistic way to look at it, but Star Trek hasn't ever really been known for its gritty realism. It wouldn't hurt my suspension of disbelief because the Ferengi are already very cartoonish. Yeah, the Ferengi's weird system of ideology-based ultra-capitalism is so strange and nonsensical to begin with that I can't really complain about the sudden changes that were obviously happening at the end of DS9.
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Jul 19, 2016 22:18
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I'm closing in on the end of Season 4 of DS9 and there's quite a few episodes I don't remember, O'Brien going to mind-prison for 20 years being one in particular. It's really nice to find unknown parts of the show (to me) after all this time when I thought I'd seen every episode.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:27
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How do you forget the ultimate gently caress O'Brian, Seriously, Let's Just Ruin His poo poo episode?
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Jul 19, 2016 23:31
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WickedHate posted:How do you forget the ultimate gently caress O'Brian, Seriously, Let's Just Ruin His poo poo episode? I didn't forget it, I somehow never saw it!
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Jul 19, 2016 23:35
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Gonz posted:A rather spoilerific TV spot for Beyond: YES! Antagonist we've never heard of wants non-specific revenge for something! We've hit the trifecta people!
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Jul 19, 2016 23:46
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I thought Gene was too hosed up by the time TNG came out to interfere with LBGT representation or the like, and it was mostly his shyster lawyer or Rick Berman. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if Roddenberry wasn't terribly progressive on the topic, but was he suppressing it during TOS?
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Jul 19, 2016 23:54
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I'd imagine it'd just never come up in the first place. I love Roddenberry drama to a weird degree, but one thing I'm not gonna blame the guy for is not crusading for gay representation on the show in the 60s.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:56
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Here is a gentle reminder--and I'm not excusing anything--that the Ellen show got a parental guidance warning on every episode after her character came out as gay in 1997. That being said, the book is in the mail, and I'm not trying to side with Gene Roddenberry, especially not having read it.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:56
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Gene was probably in favor of gay stuff but his Lawyer probably blocked it by being Gene's proxy and Berman probably did as well because "gene's vision."
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Jul 20, 2016 02:39
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The general word is that Gene was at first all in favour of it when Gerrold came to him about it, but The Lawyer and Berman teamed up to convince him it would get TNG cancelled, largely because they were both homophobes. Here's an interview. Gene had admitted he wasn't so open minded back in the 60s on gay people, though. By TNG era he was embracing, but too demented to follow through. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 03:07
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I forgot who, but someone on the staff was called "an aids-infected cocksucker" by the lawyer.
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Jul 20, 2016 03:13
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Cojawfee posted:Gene was probably in favor of gay stuff I bet he was! 
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Jul 20, 2016 03:30
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Gene wanted to go all-in on Earth being a giant orgy planet if I recall from this very thread/Chaos on the Bridge. If today's HBO existed while Gene was making TV, Star Trek would be the most hosed up thing you've ever seen.
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Jul 20, 2016 03:59
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Gene was a giant lech and his futurism at times feels like a vehicle for that. If he could have gotten away with it Star Trek would be Gor levels of fetish.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:06
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Cojawfee posted:Gene was probably in favor of gay stuff but his Lawyer probably blocked it by being Gene's proxy and Berman probably did as well because "gene's vision."
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Jul 20, 2016 04:20
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Gene was a lot of things but I wouldn't say he was any sort of coward for not trying to deal with gay rights issues in the loving 60's, that wasn't even safe until the 2000's, it would have killed TNG let alone classic. Berman is a piece of poo poo though.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:25
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FlamingLiberal posted:George Takei said in a recent interview that Gene knew he was gay in the '60s, and that they had discussions about introducing gay characters but felt that was going to get the show cancelled (they're not wrong). It wouldn't have gotten it canceled because it wouldn't have made it near the airwaves, to even attempt it would be the most pointless effort since the charge of the Light Brigade. Hell, I Love Lucy couldn't even say "pregnant", even implied heterosexual sex had to be as subtle as possible.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:36
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Yeah, 50s/60s film was heavily regulated by the Hays Code (I know that was used for film but not sure if it applied to TV as well), and TV was kind of the same deal.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:43
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Hey there was even a DS9 episode about how heavily censored scify was back in the day. Having a black writer was enough to get the whole issue pulped.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:45
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Even Star Trek had woman writers who either used their initials or used a male name because no one could accept that women could write.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:49
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Cojawfee posted:Even Star Trek had woman writers who either used their initials or used a male name because no one could accept that women could write. That's still a thing.
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Jul 20, 2016 04:51
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Baronjutter posted:Hey there was even a DS9 episode about how heavily censored scify was back in the day. Having a black writer was enough to get the whole issue pulped. Well it was that and he was trying to write a story were the main character was black also. Ikasuhito fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 04:53
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Ikasuhito posted:Well it was that and I believe he was trying to write a story were the main character was black also. Let's not forget what partially inspired that episode, after all: 
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Jul 20, 2016 05:01
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WickedHate posted:Let's not forget what partially inspired that episode, after all: Whoa, really? What's that from?
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Jul 20, 2016 05:03
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