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VikingSkull posted:Not when Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh existed already I think the general populace just thinks of them as being part of some abstract "Militia" movement more than anything else. The rabbit hole of madness that is Sovereign Citizenry I think is still largely unknown.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:45
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PST posted:
The government needs to let these rave patriot heroes need to get back to the constant battle and care for (read: acknowledge the existence of while doing nothing) their cows while continuing to fight the government. point of return posted:the actual historical cowboys were mostly black and hispanic, of course I believe you'll find the historical record of Gunsmoke to prove that it was all badass white people.
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Jul 19, 2016 23:59
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I think the general populace just thinks of them as being part of some abstract "Militia" movement more than anything else. The rabbit hole of madness that is Sovereign Citizenry I think is still largely unknown. That's why the news has been portraying the Baton Rouge shooter more as a black extremist, outside a few passing mentions of the sovcit movement If anything, people know sovcits from the "...getting owned" videos on Youtube
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Jul 20, 2016 00:06
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McVeigh was anti government but not really a sovcit. Terry Nichols was full on I'm a boat toot toot.
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Jul 20, 2016 00:30
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Otisburg posted:Reminder that the Bundy idea of ranching is a bunch of emaciated semi-feral cows dying from malnourishment around other people's property. Seriously, those cows looked like living skeletons PST posted:Sounds like "the authorities" are treating the political prisoners worse than animals! Oh god yes! Those loving 3 squares a day, clean sheets, and warm place to sleep at night at the expense of taxpayers (a system these fuckers don't agree with) is just pure torture. My loving god quote:We all saw what happened, the ranchers and their friends weren't trying to hide anything or threaten anyone. In fact, they were asking for help, from the sheriff, and anyone that wanted to seek aid for the Hammonds and other ranchers/farmers! We certainly did. Destroying property, breaking and entering, unauthorized use/theft of equipment, littering, damaging artifacts, threatening multiple times of authorities, destruction of private property where they flat out ignore what the farmers/people want and did it anyways...yeah, we all saw. I dunno why you think because you let everyone see it makes it legal, but I'll tell ya what, I'll come by your place, poo poo on your doorstep, dig up your lawn, bash your mailbox in and drive your cars around wherever I feel like and we'll see just how much you accept that SocketWrench has issued a correction as of 02:58 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 02:47
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To this day, the irony is the Hammonds wanted nothing to do with them. The Hammonds exhausted their legal options, including appealing to SCOTUS, which was declined, and said, "Ok, fine. We'll go back to jail."
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Jul 20, 2016 05:07
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iospace posted:To this day, the irony is the Hammonds wanted nothing to do with them. The Hammonds exhausted their legal options, including appealing to SCOTUS, which was declined, and said, "Ok, fine. We'll go back to jail." The hammonds were just a vehicle to start the occupation. They really didn't give a gently caress about the Hammonds.
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Jul 20, 2016 05:24
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SocketWrench posted:Destroying property, breaking and entering, unauthorized use/theft of equipment, littering, damaging artifacts, threatening multiple times of authorities, destruction of private property where they flat out ignore what the farmers/people want and did it anyways...yeah, we all saw.
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Jul 20, 2016 10:00
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Bonfire Lit posted:but it was federal equipment and federal authorities so it doesn't count You see, WE THE PEOPLE are the Federal government, and you can't steal your own property and you can't arrest yourself, and furthermore..... I hope Ryan Payne's plea deal includes a requirement that he roll on everyone else.
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Jul 20, 2016 17:04
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Bonfire Lit posted:but it was federal equipment and federal authorities so it doesn't count Yeah, but even by their own theory that the federal government can't own land outside of narrowly defined areas, there is nothing about not being able to own trucks, computers and other chattel. So they still done hosed up. Gotta keep in mind what theory of law you're using for the whole protest, or else it's just lawlessness. CommanderApaul posted:You see, WE THE PEOPLE are the Federal government, and you can't steal your own property and you can't arrest yourself, and furthermore..... Touche.
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Jul 21, 2016 18:36
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Facebook Aunt posted:Yeah, but even by their own theory that the federal government can't own land outside of narrowly defined areas, there is nothing about not being able to own trucks, computers and other chattel. So they still done hosed up. Gotta keep in mind what theory of law you're using for the whole protest, or else it's just lawlessness. Government property was trespassing and therefore forfeit? Abandoned?
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Jul 21, 2016 18:43
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Gounads posted:Government property was trespassing and therefore forfeit? Abandoned? It's salvage - they're boats remember.
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Jul 21, 2016 22:44
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Anos posted:It's salvage - they're boats remember. Only if a gold fringed flag flies on the land
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Jul 22, 2016 02:54
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Wait, if they are boats does that make the bird sanctuary a port? I think the government is allowed to own ports.
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Jul 22, 2016 03:37
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Anos posted:It's salvage - they're boats remember. Normal people on the other hand, who haven't separated their real existence from their other one, don't know this and thus probably are boats.  So I guess that means flesh-and-blood freemen are allowed to
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Jul 22, 2016 10:34
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Bonfire Lit posted:The whole point of the stupid garbage about "berth" certificates freemen spew is that they aren't boats, they're people. That's why the gold-fringed admiral court judges have no jurisdiction if they say the right magic words. Yeah we've been over the boat thing before but it's more fun to joke about them like they think they're boats so *toot* *toot*
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Jul 22, 2016 14:50
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I'd love some judge to convince a SovCit he's a boat, and thus not a human being but property that the government can then seize. Or persuade another that because he entered into the social contract, to which authority of the state is given by the individual to protect their rights, by simply being born in the United States that only two way to leave said contract is to either kill himself or leave the United States and never return.
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Jul 22, 2016 16:33
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Jul 25, 2016 13:16
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red19fire posted:They should have let him make the rope so maybe he could hang himself. Given that he plead guilty shortly after getting caught... Maybe they did?  I can't imagine these guys actually get a whole lot of anything past the people guarding them and it sounds like Ryan was saving stuff up for a while. Parallel Paraplegic posted:I mean I guess it's impressive if you're a weirdo southerner who grew up fetishizing cowboys or whatever, and if you are one you're probably oblivious to the fact that the rest of the world doesn't exactly see them as the manly god-idols you do The Bundies aren't southerners, the south ends west of the mississippi. (or louisiana, or texas, depending on who you ask - I would argue LA and TX are their own separate cultures though) The Southwest has it's own culture, which I think is where the Rancher as Status thing comes from - to these people, a rancher is like a plantation owner would have been in the old south. It means you're a landowner, somebody with wealth and influence who commands respect. They also like to play themselves up as salt of the earth (like most people in agriculture do) despite often being millionaires who don't do their own laboring. They tend to use it like the "I'm just an old man" defense to petty crimes Mirthless has issued a correction as of 14:42 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 14:33
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Mirthless posted:The Bundies aren't southerners, the south ends west of the mississippi. (or louisiana, or texas, depending on who you ask - I would argue LA and TX are their own separate cultures though) The Southwest has it's own culture, which I think is where the Rancher as Status thing comes from - to these people, a rancher is like a plantation owner would have been in the old south. It means you're a landowner, somebody with wealth and influence who commands respect. They also like to play themselves up as salt of the earth (like most people in agriculture do) despite often being millionaires who don't do their own laboring. They tend to use it like the "I'm just an old man" defense to petty crimes Well okay, though being from The South myself (sort of, Florida's a lot of weird things) we certainly have similar types of idiot white guys who style themselves as tragic/heroic dirt farmers yet drive $100,000 trucks that they will never use for hauling anything ever. We even have "rancher" fetishization but that might be specific to Florida since we have a lot of actual ranching history too due to being mostly uninhabited grasslands until the railroads happened.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:48
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Mirthless posted:The Bundies aren't southerners, the south ends west of the mississippi. (or louisiana, or texas, depending on who you ask - I would argue LA and TX are their own separate cultures though) The Southwest has it's own culture, which I think is where the Rancher as Status thing comes from - to these people, a rancher is like a plantation owner would have been in the old south. It means you're a landowner, somebody with wealth and influence who commands respect. They also like to play themselves up as salt of the earth (like most people in agriculture do) despite often being millionaires who don't do their own laboring. They tend to use it like the "I'm just an old man" defense to petty crimes My anecdotal story is that I knew a guy in college whose family was dairy farmers. But the farm made most of its income from government subsidies, something like $200k/year. Dude hated 'welfare queens' and could not understand the irony, he got steaming mad whenever I pointed it out.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:50
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red19fire posted:My anecdotal story is that I knew a guy in college whose family was dairy farmers. But the farm made most of its income from government subsidies, something like $200k/year. Dude hated 'welfare queens' and could not understand the irony, he got steaming mad whenever I pointed it out. That's how most farms make their money. But when they do it that's them being clever and tricking the government. Because.
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Jul 25, 2016 16:31
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Well okay, though being from The South myself (sort of, Florida's a lot of weird things) we certainly have similar types of idiot white guys who style themselves as tragic/heroic dirt farmers yet drive $100,000 trucks that they will never use for hauling anything ever. We even have "rancher" fetishization but that might be specific to Florida since we have a lot of actual ranching history too due to being mostly uninhabited grasslands until the railroads happened. That's not just the South. There's tons of people in the Midwest who drive very fancy F-350s that are all nice and shiny (complete with a metal lockbox that will never, ever see any tool use) for some kind of imagined status. America has this bizarre fetishization of the pioneer that hasn't been accurate for at least 250 years. This is what happens when you grow up watching TV Westerns and mistake it for reality. Well, that, and horrible insecurity. The Hyacinth Bucket of the American Man.
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Jul 25, 2016 16:56
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:That's not just the South. There's tons of people in the Midwest who drive very fancy F-350s that are all nice and shiny (complete with a metal lockbox that will never, ever see any tool use) for some kind of imagined status. America has this bizarre fetishization of the pioneer that hasn't been accurate for at least 250 years. This is what happens when you grow up watching TV Westerns and mistake it for reality. I thought it was "Bouquet".
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Jul 25, 2016 17:13
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Wow, 2 other peoples' moms watched that show too huh?
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Jul 25, 2016 17:35
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Regular Nintendo posted:Wow, 2 other peoples' moms watched that show too huh? My grandmother watched it with me on PBS. She loved it because she felt it was a perfect satire of the women she used to hang out with at the Daughters of the British Empire (herself being an English ex-pat).
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Jul 25, 2016 17:39
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:That's not just the South. There's tons of people in the Midwest who drive very fancy F-350s that are all nice and shiny (complete with a metal lockbox that will never, ever see any tool use) for some kind of imagined status. America has this bizarre fetishization of the pioneer that hasn't been accurate for at least 250 years. This is what happens when you grow up watching TV Westerns and mistake it for reality. I don't know, I lived in upstate New York for two years which is pretty red for a blue state and didn't see half as many giant lifted F-350 King Ranch Editions with ram bars and spotlights as I do here, not that I was particularly looking for them.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:40
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:That's not just the South. There's tons of people in the Midwest who drive very fancy F-350s that are all nice and shiny (complete with a metal lockbox that will never, ever see any tool use) for some kind of imagined status. America has this bizarre fetishization of the pioneer that hasn't been accurate for at least 250 years. This is what happens when you grow up watching TV Westerns and mistake it for reality. that image has never been accurate
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Jul 25, 2016 17:52
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citybeatnik posted:That's how most farms make their money. But when they do it that's them being clever and tricking the government. Because. red19fire posted:My anecdotal story is that I knew a guy in college whose family was dairy farmers. But the farm made most of its income from government subsidies, something like $200k/year. Dude hated 'welfare queens' and could not understand the irony, he got steaming mad whenever I pointed it out. This is because the people in government push handouts to farmers as "The Farm Bill", a wholly distinct and separate entity from welfare and handouts. These people feel that this benefit is a legitimate entitlement, and I don't mean in the legal/political sense, I mean, they feel that farm subsidies are literally their right as American Farmers/Ranchers
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Jul 25, 2016 19:21
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edit: wrong thread.
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Jul 26, 2016 01:43
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Mirthless posted:This is because the people in government push handouts to farmers as "The Farm Bill", a wholly distinct and separate entity from welfare and handouts. These people feel that this benefit is a legitimate entitlement, and I don't mean in the legal/political sense, I mean, they feel that farm subsidies are literally their right as American Farmers/Ranchers They buy into the "salt of the earth" mythology so deeply that they honestly think that they, as the holy agriculture owners, are the most important beings in the country. It's kind of sad how far they go into their delusion to keep their self esteem as they grow more and more irrelevant.
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Jul 26, 2016 02:00
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Mirthless posted:This is because the people in government push handouts to farmers as "The Farm Bill", a wholly distinct and separate entity from welfare and handouts. These people feel that this benefit is a legitimate entitlement, and I don't mean in the legal/political sense, I mean, they feel that farm subsidies are literally their right as American Farmers/Ranchers I'm aware. I've got dirt-farming kinfolk out in west Texas. Who bitch about how they can't find people to help them with the cotton, and when I ask them what they'd pay I go "gently caress no I'm staying here in Austin picking up contract work". "But this is how I was paid when I was your age!"
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Jul 26, 2016 02:01
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citybeatnik posted:I'm aware. I've got dirt-farming kinfolk out in west Texas. Who bitch about how they can't find people to help them with the cotton, and when I ask them what they'd pay I go "gently caress no I'm staying here in Austin picking up contract work". "But this is how I was paid when I was your age!" What was their offer, a whole shiny quarter a day?
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Jul 26, 2016 02:28
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:What was their offer, a whole shiny quarter a day? Not quite that dire, but still more than what I'd want to be paid to sit in a tractor for like a day straight stripping cotton. Wal*Mart would have paid better, but that's also because the offer was made towards the tail end of the latest oil boom and everyone and their dog was trying to work out drilling.
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Jul 26, 2016 02:41
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To be fair, it's not like a lot of things come cheap to farmers. Hell, some of the basic tractors they need to work out there run in excess of 60k for a used model. My uncle owns a farm of some type in Kansas. He told us about a storm that came through one year, flattened his fields and lighting struck one of his tractors and burnt it to the ground. I've known a few up around my neck of the woods too that lose it all when heavy winds come through and level their wheat fields. Being a farmer is pretty much a job of luck. You can do really well one year, or a single storm can roll through and destroy it all. Or it could just be a lovely year for rain and your hosed up neighbors light a brush fire to cover up illegal poaching.
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Jul 26, 2016 02:46
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:
prefect posted:I thought it was "Bouquet". I want you both to know that I love you dearly for this
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Jul 26, 2016 02:49
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SocketWrench posted:To be fair, it's not like a lot of things come cheap to farmers. Hell, some of the basic tractors they need to work out there run in excess of 60k for a used model. Oh yeah, I'd never disagree about it being hard work. My kinfolk do dry cotton farming (as opposed to irrigating/wet) and there's been some tough years. Which is why it's handy to actually OWN the land so you can make money by leasing bits and pieces of it out. I'd never try to outwit a successful farmer. But I'll still call them on their bullshit.
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Jul 26, 2016 02:55
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citybeatnik posted:Oh yeah, I'd never disagree about it being hard work. My kinfolk do dry cotton farming (as opposed to irrigating/wet) and there's been some tough years. Which is why it's handy to actually OWN the land so you can make money by leasing bits and pieces of it out. I'd never try to outwit a successful farmer. So they don't water the cotton, but just wait for it to grow on its own?
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Jul 26, 2016 10:45
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prefect posted:So they don't water the cotton, but just wait for it to grow on its own? Pray for rain. It's a viable method; you don't grow as much cotton (save for when there's a wet season, which, you know, Texas) but if you own the land you can also make money off of leasing it out for cellphone towers, mineral rights, and poo poo like that. You also save yourself the cost of having to pay for the extra water and equipment. Plus, you know, crop insurance and poo poo like that.
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Jul 26, 2016 13:19
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citybeatnik posted:Pray for rain. Not that I don't think it's admirable that they're trying to grow stuff without wasting aquifer water or whatever but is it viable viable or "viable" "we can only afford to do this because of the farm bill" viable
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Jul 26, 2016 13:21
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