poptart_fairy posted:

The game isn't chastising you though. It's going "hey, games glorify this poo poo in a lot of cases - is that really a good thing".

Taking it as a personal, direct insult seems pretty weird.

oldpainless posted:

Eminem had a comic book?

RenegadeStyle1 posted:

I am not to cool for school. I just think it's incredibly silly to let a video game judge you as a person.

HaB posted:

Agreed. I also think it's silly for the game to mention it at all, as if they aren't literally making money off the very same war/torture/destruction.

"you're becoming desensitized to war and violence! *continues desensitizing you*"

Aphrodite posted:

Oh that's just part of a series.

RagnarokAngel posted:

Again, there are loading screens which specifically mock you, the player, for playing. It's small but redirects the narrative in a huge way.

Deceitful Penguin posted:

We're talking about a medium where a game that unironically says "maybe the revolutionaries opposing literal slavery and racism are equally bad ~cause they kill people~" is hailed as a masterpiece of storytelling

Deceitful Penguin posted:

ok
Are you seriously trying to argue that using a game that initially follows the formula of a modern shooter only to then subvert the intended escapism of being a hero completely is "silly" ?

Like, this is not some super complex, it is literally loving asking you to be critical about the medium you are enjoying, which vast swathes of the people enjoying it have never, ever done and videogames especially avoid like the loving plague because they are shallow, insipid garbage by and large

HaB posted:

so telling me when I play the game YOU made that I'm a bad person

Alhazred posted:

Deceitful Penguin posted:

ok
Are you seriously trying to argue that using a game that initially follows the formula of a modern shooter only to then subvert the intended escapism of being a hero completely is "silly" ?

Like, this is not some super complex, it is literally loving asking you to be critical about the medium you are enjoying, which vast swathes of the people enjoying it have never, ever done and videogames especially avoid like the loving plague because they are shallow, insipid garbage by and large

quote:

We're talking about a medium where a game that unironically says "maybe the revolutionaries opposing literal slavery and racism are equally bad ~cause they kill people~" is hailed as a masterpiece of storytelling

RagnarokAngel posted:

I took that message as facetious,

poptart_fairy posted:

Then substitute whatever insult satisfies you.

He's a goony looking fucker regardless.

HaB posted:

I think Dark Souls manages that idea really well. You meet NPCs throughout the entire game, and you help them in various ways which propel their questlines forward, until you eventually figure out they went Hollow and insane as a direct result of your "help". But it's not a big dumb reveal or worse - text on a loading screen breaking the 4th wall to speak directly to the player. Some people never figure out at all that it's you - the player character - that is the worst thing in Lordran. That is a good example of having the player think about the medium.

Huszsersvn posted:

Are you quite certain that a player character is the worst thing in Lordran? It's hard to picture a stranger that would lend aid to another human being as culpable for the downfall of others. It's tragic, but their fates were their own - and so is yours. Isn't that the theme of the piece?

No, there are worse things than that in the land of ancient lords.

Oxxidation posted:

There's a huge amount of hearsay regarding The Line's writing process and nearly all of it is unreliable because gamers were goddamned livid at that title.

Oxxidation posted:

Like I said way back at the start of this conversation:


It's pretty much impossible to have a civil discussion about The Line because so many gamers felt personally slighted at its message, to the point where they ginned up tons of rumors and increasingly far-fetched interpretations of the script to paint the game in as hostile a light as possible. It says less about the game and more about how thin-skinned some people can be regarding a medium that habitually greets you with bursts of confetti and shiny medals when you've slain enough men. Something that tries to break that cycle of positive reinforcement (and not even all the way, you still get little statistic popups for headshots and the like) really had its work cut out for it.

Aphrodite posted:

Also it's a very bad game.

RenegadeStyle1 posted:

Spec ops is better than alpha protocol and TV show The Wire

Evilreaver posted:

This was the thing that really got me about The Division. The game opened with you instigating a lot of violence and what amounts to executions of people who are desperate, hungry and sick. Even as a desensitized-since-birth gamer, I was kinda taken aback by the abruptness of action and mercilessness the game expects of you... and it never even tries to call you/itself out on it.

HaB posted:

If I sit for 20 hours playing a game of shootmans, then the game suddenly says "you know...you should really think about what it means that you are shooting mans. They could have families, wives, sons, daughters, dogs and cats....they aren't merely enemy mans....they're just like you...you are the mans shooting the shootmans! oooooooooh!" then yes - that's silly. I wouldn't have sat there for 20 hours playing shootmans if it wasn't for the fact you made a shootmans game, so telling me when I play the game YOU made that I'm a bad person for doing so is disingenuous at best and flat out stupid at worst. Asking the player to be critical of the medium doesn't exempt you from being an example of the exact thing the player should be critical about, nor does it make the game less shallow or insipid.

HaB posted:

if a game really wants to subvert the genre - then it needs to actually DO that. Not make the same game as every other game, then say "you're not really the hero!" 3/4ths of the way through.

HaB posted:

I think Dark Souls manages that idea really well. You meet NPCs throughout the entire game, and you help them in various ways which propel their questlines forward, until you eventually figure out they went Hollow and insane as a direct result of your "help". But it's not a big dumb reveal or worse - text on a loading screen breaking the 4th wall to speak directly to the player. Some people never figure out at all that it's you - the player character - that is the worst thing in Lordran. That is a good example of having the player think about the medium.

RagnarokAngel posted:

I took that message as facetious, much like walker trying to justify his actions, the player is trying to justify that he's still playing and killing.

Yeah its silly cause they're not real people and don't make me devalue real humans any less for shooting them. So yeah, I don't care.

RagnarokAngel posted:

No its saying a justifiable revolution can become bloodthirsty and lose track of its goals when a cult of personality figure head loses sight of what's important and tries to grab onto power. Citation: history.

Guy Mann posted:

I wish people were at least consistent in their hate, I would have loved to see people getting super mad at Undertale for calling them a murderer or KotOR 2 for being a Star Wars game that criticised Star Wars.

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Huhuhu, I don't feel bad about that thur character in that thur fictional work dying cuz it aint a real purson hyuck hyuck

Deceitful Penguin posted:

kotor 2 is good

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Guy Mann posted:

I wish people were at least consistent in their hate, I would have loved to see people getting super mad at Undertale for calling them a murderer or KotOR 2 for being a Star Wars game that criticised Star Wars.

LibrarianCroaker posted:

things dragging kotor2 down: tslrcm restored some content that it really would be better without.

Deceitful Penguin posted:

hmmm, let's see what was the full title of that game again


(I know it's not written by him but the brand has that rep of HARD MEN MAKE HARD CHOICES OO RAH)
how loving terrible are you at shooters if it took you 20 hours to beat a game that's around 6 ish hours to beat. Do you have like, literal sausages for fingers or are you one of those people that play with their feet this is relevant because
How loving ADD riddled are you dude if you can't tolerate a fairly rapid build up of increasingly dubious poo poo until finally you have gameplay elements outside the story drawing attention to what you are doing in the game and questioning why you enjoy it.

It's only in the last fifth that the game actually goes outside the 4th wall to draw attention to this. There's been relatively few games that actually do this (Eternal Darkness being perhaps the most famous example, thought MGS did it with the back of the CD case) but whatever.

At its core it is loving exactly the same goddamn game as the ones it's targeting; it's a singleplayer shooter with Nolan North as the main character who singlehandedly murders hordes of enemies to triumph in a fairly typical power fantasy, at least at the start. It then subverts it by making you do increasingly dubious poo poo for less reasonable reasons then directly calling you out for it, both in game and outside it, in a way that is extremely jarring and novel.

How the hell is that not subversion? And furthermore did you think that maybe, just maybe, the intended audience of the game was more likely to have never encountered criticism of this type before and therefore the sledgehammer might be more suitable than the chisel?
This is the dumbest loving thing I've read about Dark Souls in months and I'm a huge nerd for the series that has been playing it since Kings Field 4. It's exactly the sorta smug idiocy where you get to feel superior to others by inferring non-existing patterns from what is ultimately a game not about facts but atmosphere and mood but drat, if you see something those drat casuals don't.
Huhuhu, I don't feel bad about that thur character in that thur fictional work dying cuz it aint a real purson hyuck hyuck
Good to see you know about as much about history and games as Levine does
Kotor 2 is probably the best Star Wars game, storywise, which is admittedly faint praise but at least it had several good and novel points to it

HaB posted:

so telling me when I play the game YOU made that I'm a bad person for doing so

Deceitful Penguin posted:

hmmm, let's see what was the full title of that game again


(I know it's not written by him but the brand has that rep of HARD MEN MAKE HARD CHOICES OO RAH)
how loving terrible are you at shooters if it took you 20 hours to beat a game that's around 6 ish hours to beat. Do you have like, literal sausages for fingers or are you one of those people that play with their feet this is relevant because
How loving ADD riddled are you dude if you can't tolerate a fairly rapid build up of increasingly dubious poo poo until finally you have gameplay elements outside the story drawing attention to what you are doing in the game and questioning why you enjoy it.

It's only in the last fifth that the game actually goes outside the 4th wall to draw attention to this. There's been relatively few games that actually do this (Eternal Darkness being perhaps the most famous example, thought MGS did it with the back of the CD case) but whatever.

At its core it is loving exactly the same goddamn game as the ones it's targeting; it's a singleplayer shooter with Nolan North as the main character who singlehandedly murders hordes of enemies to triumph in a fairly typical power fantasy, at least at the start. It then subverts it by making you do increasingly dubious poo poo for less reasonable reasons then directly calling you out for it, both in game and outside it, in a way that is extremely jarring and novel.

How the hell is that not subversion? And furthermore did you think that maybe, just maybe, the intended audience of the game was more likely to have never encountered criticism of this type before and therefore the sledgehammer might be more suitable than the chisel?
This is the dumbest loving thing I've read about Dark Souls in months and I'm a huge nerd for the series that has been playing it since Kings Field 4. It's exactly the sorta smug idiocy where you get to feel superior to others by inferring non-existing patterns from what is ultimately a game not about facts but atmosphere and mood but drat, if you see something those drat casuals don't.
Huhuhu, I don't feel bad about that thur character in that thur fictional work dying cuz it aint a real purson hyuck hyuck
Good to see you know about as much about history and games as Levine does
Kotor 2 is probably the best Star Wars game, storywise, which is admittedly faint praise but at least it had several good and novel points to it

Deceitful Penguin posted:

hmmm, let's see what was the full title of that game again


(I know it's not written by him but the brand has that rep of HARD MEN MAKE HARD CHOICES OO RAH)
how loving terrible are you at shooters if it took you 20 hours to beat a game that's around 6 ish hours to beat. Do you have like, literal sausages for fingers or are you one of those people that play with their feet this is relevant because
How loving ADD riddled are you dude if you can't tolerate a fairly rapid build up of increasingly dubious poo poo until finally you have gameplay elements outside the story drawing attention to what you are doing in the game and questioning why you enjoy it.

It's only in the last fifth that the game actually goes outside the 4th wall to draw attention to this. There's been relatively few games that actually do this (Eternal Darkness being perhaps the most famous example, thought MGS did it with the back of the CD case) but whatever.

At its core it is loving exactly the same goddamn game as the ones it's targeting; it's a singleplayer shooter with Nolan North as the main character who singlehandedly murders hordes of enemies to triumph in a fairly typical power fantasy, at least at the start. It then subverts it by making you do increasingly dubious poo poo for less reasonable reasons then directly calling you out for it, both in game and outside it, in a way that is extremely jarring and novel.

How the hell is that not subversion? And furthermore did you think that maybe, just maybe, the intended audience of the game was more likely to have never encountered criticism of this type before and therefore the sledgehammer might be more suitable than the chisel?
This is the dumbest loving thing I've read about Dark Souls in months and I'm a huge nerd for the series that has been playing it since Kings Field 4. It's exactly the sorta smug idiocy where you get to feel superior to others by inferring non-existing patterns from what is ultimately a game not about facts but atmosphere and mood but drat, if you see something those drat casuals don't.
Huhuhu, I don't feel bad about that thur character in that thur fictional work dying cuz it aint a real purson hyuck hyuck
Good to see you know about as much about history and games as Levine does
Kotor 2 is probably the best Star Wars game, storywise, which is admittedly faint praise but at least it had several good and novel points to it

MysticalMachineGun posted:

Smouldering Lake drags down Dark Souls 3 - it's an optional area but it's one that's fairly easy to reach if you take a turn at essentially a two pronged fork in the game.

I guess it's designed to test the player but it does so in the cheapest way possible for Dark Souls. You start by getting sandwiched between a giant laser spitting worm and a giant ballista that will shoot you with giant bolts, three at a time relentlessly. There are certain cover positions but not that many. Sure, you can kill the worm but upon entry you can do nothing about the ballista. And if you run away from the giant worm? Giant crabs instead rear end in a top hat.

So then the giant ballista blows a hole in the floor. Hooray, right? Wrong. Instead it's tight corridors full of pyromancers and Oolacile looking motherfuckers who have a "jump on your head" unblockable attack that was taking my level 55 guy down in two hits.

I haven't reached the boss yet but I'm sure that's as much of a kick in the dick as the path to shut off the ballista (it's full of enemies that can turn you to stone and swarm you).

CJacobs posted:

Deceitful Penguin is not wrong.

CJacobs posted:

That whole area sucks poo poo, unfortunately. Also, there is no boss in the tunnels, that's all bonus dicking around to do. The fog gate at the far end of the single massive open area leads to the boss. Which is a pretty baffling choice because it means your only reason to go into the tunnels is if you want to turn off the ballista... which you don't have to do if you're there to fight the boss because you can just ignore it and go right to the fog. And after you turn off the ballista you can explore the lake at your leisure... but the lake is just that single big area and there's nothing else to it besides the entrances to the tunnels.