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Jul 20, 2016 04:17
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Fact: The HRE reached its peak in the years 1648-1806, when a sort of "Cold War" between Catholics and Protestants dominated every single facet of life and made an already complicated situation hilariously complex by adding a ton of denominational arguments and hosed-up compromises to the mix. The Catholic south experienced a cultural boom with the Baroque that had been unprecedented before in Germany (and which probably still is) while the Protestant north slowly entered the Enlightenment, producing or at least attracting such great thinkers like Lessing, Kant, Herder and Voltaire. The HRE was threatened in the west by the French and by the Ottomans in the East, while the conflict between Catholic and southern Austria, home of the Imperial Hapsburg family, and an emerging Protestant Prussia to the north would regularly lead to conflicts and even wars throughout the 18th century... and yet the Empire was an amazing "system of peace" especially for its smallest member states, which would otherwise have been gobbled up mercilessly by their more powerful neighbours. The Imperial judiciary was slow with some trials taking several centuries before being finally concluded, but it worked, and even more than that: "Recent research also brought to light that, especially in the 18th century, the rulings of the court anticipated in many ways the constitutional establishment of civil liberties in Germany. For instance, the inviolability of one's housing or freedom of trade were legally introduced in the Empire by rulings of the court. At the end of the 18th century some contemporaries even compared the Imperial Chamber Court to the National Assembly in Revolutionary France." (Wikipedia) The HRE was utterly incompatible with modern notions of "nationality" and "states", but it represented a fascinating alternative that's seen by many as a possible model for supranational organisations like the EU and I'm legit sad that it had to go. And here're some more interesting HRE facts:
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Jul 20, 2016 08:31
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System Metternich posted:
Oh, it was worse than that - in addition to the Free Imperial Cities and Villages, there were also Imperial Knights - that is to say, individual knights who answered directly to the Emperor, and thus possessed the same privileges of "Imperial Immediacy" as any other state within the Empire. So basically in addition to that clusterfuck of a map people have posted, you'd also have a few hundred dudes who could claim their house as a separate territory, and ignore the taxes, laws and religious policy of any other prince of the Empire, because, hey, they're a state in their own right.
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Jul 20, 2016 09:09
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Angry Salami posted:Oh, it was worse than that - in addition to the Free Imperial Cities and Villages, there were also Imperial Knights - that is to say, individual knights who answered directly to the Emperor, and thus possessed the same privileges of "Imperial Immediacy" as any other state within the Empire. So basically in addition to that clusterfuck of a map people have posted, you'd also have a few hundred dudes who could claim their house as a separate territory, and ignore the taxes, laws and religious policy of any other prince of the Empire, because, hey, they're a state in their own right. Did they ride around wearing fedoras and asking AM I BEING DETAINED?
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Jul 20, 2016 09:40
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System Metternich posted:HRE stuff Another fun little effect of the HRE's clusterfuck is that it resulted in a shitload of opera houses throughout the country. After all, having a proper opera was a big cultural deal at the time, so every little duchy and county had to have one. As a result, Germany now has something like 60 major operas in the country, whereas most other countries make do with maybe 10 at most. 
Perestroika has a new favorite as of 09:44 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 09:42
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What's that enclave near the south-east of the Dutch Republic?
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Jul 20, 2016 18:48
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Carbon dioxide posted:What's that enclave near the south-east of the Dutch Republic? That may be Huissen, exclave of the Duchy of Cleves. e: Probably too small, though. Platystemon has a new favorite as of 19:13 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 19:01
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Carbon dioxide posted:What's that enclave near the south-east of the Dutch Republic? I thought it was Ravenstein (belongs to Burg or Julich) but I'm not an expert.
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Jul 20, 2016 19:13
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It bears pointing out that there is a map color for "this poo poo is too freaking splintered to even try to display on a map".
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Jul 20, 2016 19:24
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Imagine how long stuff like the Football Eurocup would take if Germany and Italy were still not unififed. Just dozens of tiny fiefdoms and city states and what not.
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Jul 20, 2016 19:34
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Angry Salami posted:Oh, it was worse than that - in addition to the Free Imperial Cities and Villages, there were also Imperial Knights - that is to say, individual knights who answered directly to the Emperor, and thus possessed the same privileges of "Imperial Immediacy" as any other state within the Empire. So basically in addition to that clusterfuck of a map people have posted, you'd also have a few hundred dudes who could claim their house as a separate territory, and ignore the taxes, laws and religious policy of any other prince of the Empire, because, hey, they're a state in their own right. It wasn't as bad as that, Imperial Knights normally had a small territory of their own. Towards the end of the Empire there were about 350 knights with maybe 450,000 peoplke living in their territories altogether. Another fun thing: Imperial prelates! Those were in most cases the abbots of important monasteries who had been granted imperial immediacy by the Emperor. They ruled not only over their respective convents, but also about a number of territories wildy varying in size. In today's Bavarian district of Swabia alone there were nine of them, ranging in their possessions from 28 to 266 sqkm with 1000-10,000 people living in them, with an additional two Imperial abbeys whose abbots enjoyed the privilege of being "Imperial Princes" instead, which meant that they had a vote of their own in the Imperial Diet instead of just being a part of a larger group of prelates in the Diet. Oh, and two other monasteries in the area had special privileges as well: the abbey of Edelstetten was formally part of the Imperial Knights, and the abbess of the Lindau convent claimed the title of an Imperial Princess for herself (which the Imperial chancellery denied). Those prelatures are especially interesting, because more than a dozen of them were led by women who got to have a say in Imperial politics via that route too. And don't get me started about the prince-bishoprics, they're a story of their own again. Did I mention that the archbishop of Mainz for example saw his military mainly as something that would add some colour to his ceremonies? The comparatively small archbishopric (350,000 inhabitants) had six generals, and being a soldier there was so unpopular that the ranks had to be filled with cripples
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Jul 20, 2016 22:42
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lllllllllllllllllll posted:
Wow, I live in Weymouth, never heard of this! Thought I knew all the cool historical happenings in Dorset. How incredibly British of them, they find the flag of Zanzibar and go "eh, close enough"
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Jul 21, 2016 00:12
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Speaking of tiny German-speaking places in Europe: Liechtenstein became an independent principality in the Holy Roman Empire (i.e., with immediacy to the emperor) in 1719, but it was nearly 100 years before any of the princes of Liechtenstein actually bothered to visit their principality, and more than 200 years before they actually lived there. The princes took the family name from Liechtenstein Castle near Vienna, and while they owned plenty of land, all of it was with some other feudal lords over them. Seeking to acquire land without anyone but the emperor above them, they finally acquired the lands of Schellenberg and Vaduz, both of which already had immediacy to the emperor. From these lands, the principality was created in 1719. Most of a century passed until Napoleon's creation of the Confederation of the Rhine in 1806, which nowadays is generally seen as the time Liechtenstein gained sovereignty entirely. In 1815 Liechtenstein joined the German confederation (which lasted until 1866), and in 1818 Aloys II became the first prince of Liechtenstein to actually set foot in the then-99-year-old principality. Over the course of the 19th century the princes generally continued to live in Vienna and to get most of their wealth from the lands they owned in Habsburg-controlled Austria, only occasionally spending time in their little sovereign principality. It was not until the Anschluss in 1938 that the then-new prince at the time, Franz Joseph II, actually moved to Liechtenstein to live there for good -- and to move the family's treasures there to keep them out of Nazi hands. tacodaemon has a new favorite as of 04:36 on Jul 22, 2016 |
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Jul 21, 2016 02:41
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The Massacre of Glencoe in 1692's effects can still be felt to this day. In a lot of rural places, Campbells and MacDonalds still hold grudges against each other for the Campbell's part in the murder of 38 MacDonald clansmen who did not swear allegiance to William and Mary quick enough after the failure of the first Jacobite uprising a few years before. I'm speaking from experience here. As a kid visiting my grandparents, we were told not to go over to the Campbell line, and stay on the MacDonald line because that is where our ancestors were from, and you should never trust a Campbell. The incident has also had its impact on pop culture. The Red Wedding from A Song of Ice and Fire was influenced by the Glencoe Massacre, with the violation of guest right.
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Jul 21, 2016 16:38
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Arcsquad12 posted:
The last season of Mad Men has Pete Campbell's kid not get into a private kindergarten because the guy in charge of admissions was a MacDonald.
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Jul 21, 2016 16:43
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During WWII, American bombers were coming back shot all to poo poo, and rather a lot of them weren't coming back at all. The obvious solution was to put some armor in them, but they were already riding on the razor edge of just enough fuel to carry just enough bombs just far enough, so they obviously couldn't armor the whole thing. So the Navy hired a statistician to analyze where the planes were getting hit and figure out the spots that needed to have armor. He recommended armoring the spots where there weren't any bullet holes. It sounds crazy on first glance, but when you think about it, it makes sense -- the planes he was looking at had been through the wringer, were more a loose collection of parts flying in formation than an actual airplane, half the crew was dead or dying, but they made it back for him to study. Obviously the ones that didn't make it back were taking hits in the places the survivors weren't. Or, qouth wikipedia: quote:The holes in the returning aircraft, then, represented areas where a bomber could take damage and still return home safely. Wald proposed that the Navy instead reinforce the areas where the returning aircraft were unscathed, since those were the areas that, if hit, would cause the plane to be lost.
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Jul 22, 2016 22:16
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Delivery McGee posted:During WWII, American bombers were coming back shot all to poo poo, and rather a lot of them weren't coming back at all. The obvious solution was to put some armor in them, but they were already riding on the razor edge of just enough fuel to carry just enough bombs just far enough, so they obviously couldn't armor the whole thing. See, I haven't heard if that actually improved results. But if it did, what an excellent example of parallel thinking.
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Jul 23, 2016 00:41
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You probably mean lateral thinking (to be incredlby PYF) I had an historical anecdote but it's quite gone now. I'll put it here when it returns
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Jul 23, 2016 00:53
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On the airplane front, P-47 Thunderbolts did more to break the Luftwaffe than the P-51 Mustang. While not an especially good escort fighter, it was extremely fast in a dive due to it weighing over nine tonnes and being built like a brick shithouse. Throughout 1943, Thunderbolts took on the brunt of the Luftwaffe and managed to fight on equal terms. Eventually, once P-51s were able to escort the bomber formations all the way to and from their targets, P-47s roles changed to ground attack. They would launch from forward airbases and attack german planes before they could scramble to intercept the bombers. The British did the same thing with their Hawker Tempests, taking out the ME-262 airfields and taking advantage of the jets' slow warmup time.
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Jul 23, 2016 01:07
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Arcsquad12 posted:On the airplane front, P-47 Thunderbolts did more to break the Luftwaffe than the P-51 Mustang. While not an especially good escort fighter, it was extremely fast in a dive due to it weighing over nine tonnes and being built like a brick shithouse. Throughout 1943, Thunderbolts took on the brunt of the Luftwaffe and managed to fight on equal terms. Eventually, once P-51s were able to escort the bomber formations all the way to and from their targets, P-47s roles changed to ground attack. They would launch from forward airbases and attack german planes before they could scramble to intercept the bombers. The British did the same thing with their Hawker Tempests, taking out the ME-262 airfields and taking advantage of the jets' slow warmup time. I loving love Thunderbolts. They are the namesake of the A-10 
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Jul 23, 2016 01:26
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I can't remember the context so this may be apocryphal, but I remember learning that in skirmishes with early German jet aircraft, Allied planes would make great use of their ability to actually be able to fly slowly, an ability the Nazis' air-hungry jet engines didn't have.
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Jul 23, 2016 01:31
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Christmas Present posted:I can't remember the context so this may be apocryphal, but I remember learning that in skirmishes with early German jet aircraft, Allied planes would make great use of their ability to actually be able to fly slowly, an ability the Nazis' air-hungry jet engines didn't have. I don’t know about props vs. jets, but Soviet pilots in Po‐2s took advantage of this against fighters like the Bf 109 and Fw 190.
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Jul 23, 2016 01:43
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Arcsquad12 posted:They would launch from forward airbases and attack german planes before they could scramble to intercept the bombers. The British did the same thing with their Hawker Tempests, taking out the ME-262 airfields and taking advantage of the jets' slow warmup time. Early in the war, the German fighters figured out that trick -- they'd follow the British bombers back across the channel and easily pick them off while they were landing -- but then, in typical Nazi comedy of errors style, the high command told them to stop doing that thing that was working really well because it wasn't producing visible results for the people. Hitler wanted bombers shot down over Germany, where das volk could see it happen, thus increasing their morale. I can kinda see his point, but In addition to it being much more difficult to shoot down an alert bomber with all its guns manned than a bomber flaring for landing, I question the morale-boosting value of having a flaming Rolls-Royce Merlin (of worse, four of them with most of the Lancaster still attached) fall through one's roof. That's gotta be hell on the carpet.
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Jul 23, 2016 04:18
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Delivery McGee posted:Early in the war, the German fighters figured out that trick -- they'd follow the British bombers back across the channel and easily pick them off while they were landing -- but then, in typical Nazi comedy of errors style, the high command told them to stop doing that thing that was working really well because it wasn't producing visible results for the people. Hitler wanted bombers shot down over Germany, where das volk could see it happen, thus increasing their morale. Don’t tell me the British weren’t going to soon counter this tactic and counter it hard anyway.
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Jul 23, 2016 04:32
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I kinda doubt German fighters followed British bombers back across the channel... Like fro a total math point of view it makes sense to reinforce the non-penetrated parts surving planes. Irl its just voodoo Either way, those claimed external weak spots seem a bit ...unproven...
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Jul 23, 2016 04:37
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Snapchat A Titty posted:I kinda doubt German fighters followed British bombers back across the channel... IIRC it was more complex than that. The Germans would listen to RAF radio signals to determine when/where bombers were being launched, they would then launch a flight of night fighters (Bf 110 heavy fighters and converted Ju 88 bombers) to attack the airfield as it began recovering the bombers.
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Jul 23, 2016 06:24
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ya that makes more sense I guess
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Jul 23, 2016 06:29
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German Nightfighters also utilized a device called Schräge Musik, a set of autocannons mounted at a 45 degree angle behind the cockpit. The interceptors would sneak up on the British nighttime bombing raids from behind and beneath, and ambush them with these odd angled guns so they could maintain speed and dart in and out of the formations. And that's all I've got to say on WW2 aircraft.
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Jul 23, 2016 07:04
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There's several instances of fighter pilots taking out enemy aircraft by destroying their tail with propeller after running out of ammo.
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Jul 23, 2016 08:51
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Kennel posted:There's several instances of fighter pilots taking out enemy aircraft by destroying their tail with propeller after running out of ammo. Is that something you can do more than once?
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Jul 23, 2016 09:48
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Christmas Present posted:I can't remember the context so this may be apocryphal, but I remember learning that in skirmishes with early German jet aircraft, Allied planes would make great use of their ability to actually be able to fly slowly, an ability the Nazis' air-hungry jet engines didn't have. The Nazi jet fighter, the Messerschmidt 262, didn't see active service until 1944. The Heinkel Spatz, the other jet fighter, saw only very limited service at the end of the war. Kennel posted:There's several instances of fighter pilots taking out enemy aircraft by destroying their tail with propeller after running out of ammo. Some WWI pilots claimed you could do this. The speed of the planes make it right on the edge of possible, but unlikely. It really isn't something you want to try, even as a desperation move. With no parachute, you'd be committing suicide. By WWII the planes were far too fast to attempt this. Basically, you don't want your plane hitting another plane midair, no matter how cool it looks in the movies.
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Jul 23, 2016 10:23
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Arcsquad12 posted:On the airplane front, P-47 Thunderbolts did more to break the Luftwaffe than the P-51 Mustang. While not an especially good escort fighter, it was extremely fast in a dive due to it weighing over nine tonnes and being built like a brick shithouse. Throughout 1943, Thunderbolts took on the brunt of the Luftwaffe and managed to fight on equal terms. Eventually, once P-51s were able to escort the bomber formations all the way to and from their targets, P-47s roles changed to ground attack. They would launch from forward airbases and attack german planes before they could scramble to intercept the bombers. The British did the same thing with their Hawker Tempests, taking out the ME-262 airfields and taking advantage of the jets' slow warmup time. Both the USAAF and the RAF had this sort of 'halo model' thing going one - a sexy, streamlined, high-tech fighter that appeared in all the publicity films, posters, war bonds adverts and recruiting speil (the Mustang and the Spitfire respectively) and then a much less glamorous, objectively inferior (as a classic dogfighter, at least), older, tougher fighter that actually did the majority of the legwork (the Thunderbolt and the Hurricane). The glamorous Spitfire was 'the plane that won the Battle of Britain' and Reginald Mitchell had an entire (not terribly accurate) film made about him and his plane in 1942 and William Walton wrote a Prelude & Fugue about the Spitfire. People were encouraged to send in their old saucepans and biscuit tins to be 'turned into Spitfires', even though this isn't possible. The Hurricane never got that sort of public acclaim even though it made up the majority of the RAF's fighter strength in 1940 - 33 squadrons as opposed to 19 Spitfire units - and accounted for the majority of fighter kills (55 per cent). Although slower and less manoeuverable than the Supermarine the Hawker was easier to fly, easier and less materials-intensive to build, easier to repair, was a more stable gun platform and had much more rugged undercarriage. Before Spitfire development really got into its stride the Hurricane was also a much more versatile product, being produced as the 'Hurribomber' tankbuster and the Sea Hurricane. This isn't to do down the Spitfire, of course. The Hurricane, being essentially a monoplane adaptation of a 1930s biplane fighter, quickly reached the limit of its development while the Spitfire went on and on and on. Which is where it also differed from the P-47, which was improved and adapted as a ground attack plane once the Mustang came along while the Hurricane was surpassed by the likes of the Tempest and Typhoon. But the Spitfire 'myth' was so all-pervasive at the time that virtually every low-wing monoplane RAF fighter was called a 'Spitfire'. Near my hometown there was a bridge over a dual carriageway road which was semi-officially called 'the Spitfire Bridge' because during the War a barnstorming pilot flew a Spitfire through the arch (and clipped three feet of wingtip off and crashed, without major injury). In fact the official record makes it very clear that he was flying a P-40 Tomahawk but as far as the general public was concerned it was a Spitfire.
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Jul 23, 2016 11:27
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjXr9Nj5ZbI
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Jul 23, 2016 11:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLTfWeg1NIc
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Jul 23, 2016 12:27
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16th century  : quote:The foulest place of my arse is fairer than thy face https://thesocialhistorian.wordpress.com/2016/07/21/the-foulest-place-of-mine-arse-is-fairer-than-thy-face/
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Jul 23, 2016 12:41
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ArchangeI posted:16th century Oh wow those are fantastic. Thanks! In my genealogy research I've come across a married couple who lived in Copenhagen in the years around 1800. They were pretty much always drunk and belligerent, there's pretty much a new police case every 6 months for around 15 years. Example (my translation): quote:Reverently Promemoria! (I think the 5 rigsdaler line means that Tofte thinks it'd be worth a possible fine)
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Jul 23, 2016 13:36
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From an 1802 complaint by a saddler apprentice regarding the husband, Ole Pedersen Tofte: "Today morning as I stood alone in the shop, the aforementioned my master came in and shut the door and locked it behind him and began to scold me and beat me until I was quite blue." From the documents regarding their separation: quote:Pro Memoria! quote:That I on different occasions have been called to Madame Tofte to bandage some significant headwounds, whereamong especially one on the left side of the temple was dangerous and has left a significant scar, and that she now again shows evidence of violent battery at various places of the body, that her husband is to have caused her; I in truth testify as requested. quote:Copenhagen, April 20 1805
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Jul 23, 2016 13:41
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To bad your ancestor didn't have access to E/N he could have had advice on how to deal with his relationship troubles in a healthy manner.
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Jul 23, 2016 14:58
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Khazar-khum posted:Some WWI pilots claimed you could do this. The speed of the planes make it right on the edge of possible, but unlikely. It really isn't something you want to try, even as a desperation move. With no parachute, you'd be committing suicide. And yet.  Worked for Robert Klingman and I swear there's another carrier pilot who did the same. Jimmy Thach actually gave instructions on how to do it to his fighter squadron before Midway because the F4F-4 traded in a lot of ammo for two more guns and they were worried fighters would run out of ammo while on CAP duty.
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Jul 23, 2016 15:13
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xthetenth posted:And yet. Yeah I was gonna say it would be far, FAR from the first time that war and combat pushed people into irrationally suicidal behavior in fact getting people to go to those lengths is like 95% of fighting a war
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Jul 23, 2016 15:56
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