Ask me about Medieval History & Combat.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about Medieval History & Combat.

VoteTedJameson: Jan 10, 2014; And stack the four!

SlothfulCobra posted:

I've had questions in my head for a while about bandits and what they are in an actual historical setting, but I've been having a hard time figuring out how to phrase them. Free-floating groups of bandits are a fixture in fiction, especially in medieval settings, but I can't really wrap my head around them.

Where do they come from? I hear things about out of work soldiers and how the scandinavians did it as some kind of hobby/vacation and get together in a roving band to wreak havoc in Europe independently of the actual Scandinavian conquests going on at the time, but I also read things about little communities hiding away like a bunch of muslims setting up shop in one of northern Italy's mountain passes to harass travelers or sallying forth to raid and such. Do entire communities just sometimes up and lift anchor to wander off somewhere to become bandits? I get that especially in a pre-nation-state world where borders aren't strictly maintained there can be entirely undocumented groups roving around in lands that are ostensibly somebody's dominion, but settling down? How does that work?

What do they eat? I get that they're supposed to be sustained by their banditry, but it feels like stealing all that food would be a lot of work, and very quickly draw attention from authorities. Sure if they get loot they could theoretically translate that into food, but how do you liquidate that loot? Especially when any big merchants will be wary of the area because there's supposed to be bandits out there.

I get really caught up on all these things because I'm always wondering about the economics of these situations, and the idea of bandits just seems really unfeasible to me. Like there's this whole built up idea about criminals in the wild west, but as I understand it, the stories are all overblown because rural towns in the middle of nowhere without business to bring money or supplies in just can't sustain lots of criminal activity. How well could bandits do when they're not under employ as soldiers?

By the late middle ages, bandits were surviving off of cash made from 1) Hostage-taking/extortion 2)Stealing from local peasants 3) Getting hired as mercenaries. Just last night I was reading about an incident where a company of bandits in Southern France (les ecorcheurs, "the flayers") were contracted by the King of France and led East, just to get them out of the country. They raise hell in Switzerland for a little while then he abandoned them to die in Alsace in winter. 2/3 of them (their original strength may have exceeded 30,000 but chroniclers LOVE exaggerating) were picked off by an angry populace and the cold as they straggled back to France, where they weren't much of a problem anymore.

A lot of the time when you read a late medieval account about "companies" in the service of this or that lord, there's this kind of subtext where some of them are probably professional soldiers acting under contract, and the rest are probably brigands who decided they're earn better pay going legit...at least temporarily.

# ? Jul 22, 2016 16:24

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# ? May 20, 2024 13:24

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

P-Mack posted:

Yep. A lot of times getting extorted by bandits is preferable to getting extorted by bandits and soldiers.

There are full time career bandits, but there are also plenty of part timers who will disguise their face and raid another village's crops at harvest time. For the village it's kind of better to have them on the inside pissing out, as it were.

As far as your exit strategy, if you have a bunch of armed and cantankerous dudes, the government can either spend a lot of money to raise troops and exterminate the bandits, or can spend a lot less money on a deal where the bandits become the troops. So there's a lot of movement back and forth on different sides of the law.

This is all talking about China, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar dynamics in the more lawless parts of Europe.

Let me guess, the joke is: You spend money to raise soldiers to wipe out the bandits. Afterwards you stop paying the soldiers, because the problem is solved, right? Hence, the soldiers turn bandits. You've just successfully spent money and archieved nothing.

I really like the dude's solution from one of your posts, where he pays the bandits to raid the neighbouring province.

# ? Jul 22, 2016 17:16

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

Thanks for the answers. That's always been something that bugged me.

# ? Jul 22, 2016 22:26

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

There's a fun Tony Robinson show (maybe Fact Or Fiction) where he looks at the the origins of the Robin Hood stories in one of the episodes. It talks a bit about outlaws living in the woods (Barnsdale, not Sherwood Forest) and what is a thing is that outlaws could in the long term only survive with the support of someone else, probably a family member. The average medieval dude doesn't have the resources or the skills to survive alone in the woods for a longer period of time, especially not if they're also trying to avoid discovery.

# ? Jul 22, 2016 22:51

NLJP: Aug 26, 2004

I did some work on a robber baron's castle near Jihlava in the czech republic about ten years ago. It was real cool, rather than being on a hill etc. like most castles, this was tucked away in a valley. Story goes that they basically raided trade that was on its way to Jihlava until the local lord got pissed enough and eventually reduced it. You could still see where they set up the catapults: the disadvantage of having your castle at the bottom of a valley is that a sieging enemy has a real good vantage for bombardment.

Generally, banditry seemed to be a balancing act between robbing enough to live well but not enough to really be apain and need to be taken out.

NLJP fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jul 23, 2016

# ? Jul 23, 2016 13:47

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

question: everyone knows that the whole image of the ninja and associated "ninjato" is bullshit, but is there any evidence of historical shinobi/ninja/Japanese spies using swords concealed in walking sticks, umbrellas, etc. like Europeans did?

# ? Jul 24, 2016 00:01

Verisimilidude: Dec 20, 2006; Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges

I 'rassled Matt Easton. I lost horribly but we 'rassled.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 14:34

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

I 'rassled Matt Easton. I lost horribly but we 'rassled.

Did you tell him on behalf of the thread that lindybeige sucks

# ? Jul 24, 2016 14:38

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

Verisimilidude posted:

I 'rassled Matt Easton. I lost horribly but we 'rassled.

Good chap! Now get thee to a regular 'rasslin' class so you can beat him up one day!

# ? Jul 24, 2016 14:49

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Did you tell him on behalf of the thread that lindybeige sucks

Matt's continued recommendation of lindybeige confuses me so much. Is it just because they're youtube buddies or can he not tell how loving stupid Lindybeige is?

# ? Jul 24, 2016 14:57

ChaseSP: Mar 25, 2013

What is wrong with lindybiege exactly? I remember watching some of his armor/weapon videos and they seemed pretty good and consistent with other stuff I've read/heard from this thread

# ? Jul 24, 2016 15:02

Schenck v. U.S.: Sep 8, 2010

ChaseSP posted:

What is wrong with lindybiege exactly? I remember watching some of his armor/weapon videos and they seemed pretty good and consistent with other stuff I've read/heard from this thread

I haven't seen that many of his videos so I wouldn't claim to be familiar with his whole channel, but based on what I have watched he approaches historical topics as a hobbyist. By which I mean, he has a dilettantish approach of studying a lot of different things that he's interested in, not at any great depth, and then he puts up a video of his thoughts. That's fine for what it is and a casual entertainment approach is how you get people interested in studying at greater depth, but he's not an expert, and a certain amount of stuff he claims is obviously made up based on what he assumes is correct. Again, I haven't gone over his whole clip library so there may be topics he has a more serious approach to and better command of the facts, but what I've seen has involved a lot of misinformation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXQygRVvEmM
For example, somebody in the other thread posted this video comparing the Bren to the MG42, which he insists on calling a "Spandau" because "everybody" called it that during WWII. Which I don't think is even particularly accurate with respect to just British troops, let alone everybody else. Since it isn't a medieval topic I'm not going to belabor the point, but that video contains some correct information but also lots and lots of false statements, and is basically terrible.

Grenrow posted:

Matt's continued recommendation of lindybeige confuses me so much. Is it just because they're youtube buddies or can he not tell how loving stupid Lindybeige is?

I dunno, but lindybeige has been youtubing for most of a decade, his videos regularly get hundreds of thousands of views, and he has over 250,000 followers. Even if he's frequently wrong, he's a bridge between fantasy RPG nerds and historical reenacting and HEMA nerds. I also wouldn't be surprised if, more specifically, lindybeige has helped Easton out by steering subscribers to Easton's channel and his sword school.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 16:10

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

ChaseSP posted:

What is wrong with lindybiege exactly? I remember watching some of his armor/weapon videos and they seemed pretty good and consistent with other stuff I've read/heard from this thread

I'm sure he's said some things that are more or less correct, but like Even mentioned, he's a dilettante and doesn't seem to ever put out the effort to do any actual research on topics before he records a video about it. Then, because he has a British accent, his fans generally eat it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWvsHorqldM

In this one, for instance, he's basically just repeating a bar story about scimitar fighting he heard from some other dude at a convention, who heard the story from another person who served in Lebanon in the 80s. He doesn't bother to look up, say, any Mamluk or Persian manuals about sword training, or look at what British accounts of Indian and Arab swordsmanship had to say on the subject. It's pretty much "some guy I met at the bar said this, and I guess that makes sense!" Why bother talking about it at all if you can't be bothered to do the barest hint of research? I haven't seen it yet, but I've been told one of his newer videos about shooting to kill relies heavily on David Grossman's book, which is based on flawed and inaccurate information to begin with.

I'm a little more pessimistic about the whole idea of using stuff like this to get people interested in the topic to begin with. Yeah, I know we all start somewhere, and I'm glad for anyone who gets into history regardless of where their interest was sparked from, but I don't think there's any reason why interest couldn't be derived from a less terrible place. I don't agree with Matt Easton 100% of the time either, but he does his research and presents coherent arguments for his viewpoints. I don't think his approach is too dry for people new to the subject.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 16:44

SlothfulCobra: Mar 27, 2011

He's got some good points, but you have to take a lot of grains of salt with some things he says, since he does a lot of conjecture with little support. Also he comes off as a bit of a smug prick.

He's sort of a lite version of an academic.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 17:09

Kanine: Aug 5, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

something about the way lindybeige talks and puts forth his opinions (mostly his videos involving politics) really just makes me want to punch him in his stupid smug british face

just my take though so take it with a grain of salt

# ? Jul 24, 2016 18:35

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

You can find his pike video linked waaaay back on p. 12, and hegel going ham on him further down.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3529788&pagenumber=12&perpage=40#post413767816

# ? Jul 24, 2016 22:11

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Kanine posted:

something about the way lindybeige talks and puts forth his opinions (mostly his videos involving politics) really just makes me want to punch him in his stupid smug british face

just my take though so take it with a grain of salt

everything he argues drips with condescension. Same reason I hate stephen fry.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 22:15

the yeti: Mar 29, 2008; memento disco

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

everything he argues drips with condescension. Same reason I hate stephen fry.

I recall lindybeige managing to act like his assertions are obvious and therefore don't need any backing up, but at the same time he's super smart for having reasoned it out to share with the plebs

# ? Jul 24, 2016 22:19

Grenrow: Apr 11, 2016

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

everything he argues drips with condescension. Same reason I hate stephen fry.

He did a video where he talked about fantasy RPGs and how normal weapons like swords probably wouldn't be the best things to fight giant monsters with. He then told a story about a game he ran where the PCs used normal Dungeons and Dragons equipment, but couldn't do anything against the big crab or whatever. Then he had NPCs come in with specially adapted equipment to take out the monster. That sounded like the shittiest Dungeons and Dragons game anyone's ever played, all done for the sake of lindybeige giving the players a smug look.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 22:57

ChaseSP: Mar 25, 2013

Everyone knows the most powerful thing in DND isn't a guy with a sword but a wizard manipulating reality itself anyway. Yeah thanks for telling me the guy is somehow up his own rear.

# ? Jul 24, 2016 23:14

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Grenrow posted:

He did a video where he talked about fantasy RPGs and how normal weapons like swords probably wouldn't be the best things to fight giant monsters with. He then told a story about a game he ran where the PCs used normal Dungeons and Dragons equipment, but couldn't do anything against the big crab or whatever. Then he had NPCs come in with specially adapted equipment to take out the monster. That sounded like the shittiest Dungeons and Dragons game anyone's ever played, all done for the sake of lindybeige giving the players a smug look.

Next person who GMs needs to outsmug and have the giant crab immediately drop dead because an animal that size obviously couldn't breathe without lungs.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 00:56

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

he doesn't believe pikes stab people
:sad:

# ? Jul 25, 2016 01:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Verisimilidude posted:

I 'rassled Matt Easton. I lost horribly but we 'rassled.

i got stabbed in the armpit by a czech. then i stopped cutting from the shoulder

# ? Jul 25, 2016 01:49

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

HEY GAL posted:

i got stabbed in the armpit by a czech. then i stopped cutting from the shoulder

So you stopped cutting?

# ? Jul 25, 2016 01:55

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

So you stopped cutting?

cutting from the elbow protects your unarmored spots better :colbert:

# ? Jul 25, 2016 01:56

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

goddamnit, i'm wondering if you can put gun oil on wood and leather to protect it instead of using a separate product for wood, leather, and metal, and thanks to the lube you can't google that any more

# ? Jul 25, 2016 10:25

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

I'm pretty sure you should only use leather products for leather, but you can use veggie oil for both metal and wood.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 10:49

Ataxerxes: Dec 2, 2011; What is a soldier but a miserable pile of eaten cats and strange language?

HEY GAL posted:

he doesn't believe pikes stab people

Pikes don't kill people, pikemen do.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 10:52

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

HEY GAL posted:

goddamnit, i'm wondering if you can put gun oil on wood and leather to protect it instead of using a separate product for wood, leather, and metal, and thanks to the lube you can't google that any more

At least Ballistol (lol) is a general purpose gun oil that you can use for leather and wood.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 12:15

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

You can oil wood. A lot of purpose made gun oils aren't great for that since they are designed to wick and penetrate into small parts and get into screws etc.

If you really want to go possibly period correct nuts use lanolin. A TFR goon sent me a jar to try on a old pistol that wouldn't stop rusting and it works like a charm. Since it's closer to a grease than oil I imagine it would work better for coating a blade. As a bonus it makes your hands super soft.

Google tells me people use it on leather which is kind of unsurprising given how nice it makes living skin.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 16:33

Armyman25: Sep 6, 2005

HEY GAL posted:

goddamnit, i'm wondering if you can put gun oil on wood and leather to protect it instead of using a separate product for wood, leather, and metal, and thanks to the lube you can't google that any more

You can use this on everything!

And it's non-carcinogenic!

# ? Jul 25, 2016 17:44

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

HEY GAL posted:

goddamnit, i'm wondering if you can put gun oil on wood and leather to protect it instead of using a separate product for wood, leather, and metal, and thanks to the lube you can't google that any more

What you are looking for is linseed oil. One for all. Just don't bunch up used fabric and throw it in the trash while it's still drying. You'll burn down your shack.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 17:51

Verisimilidude: Dec 20, 2006; Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges

Armyman25 posted:

You can use this on everything!

And it's non-carcinogenic!

I use this for my sword stuff now and it definitely works. We used to use CLP until we found out it's highly carcinogenic.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 18:24

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Verisimilidude posted:

We used to use CLP until we found out it's highly carcinogenic.

wait, for real? i think that's what i have. getting some ballistol now

# ? Jul 25, 2016 19:05

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

JaucheCharly posted:

What you are looking for is linseed oil. One for all. Just don't bunch up used fabric and throw it in the trash while it's still drying. You'll burn down your shack.

what if i don't have a shack, what then?

# ? Jul 25, 2016 19:37

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

You're a grad student living in Germany. Please don't burn down the "communal residence" that you and your friends call the abandoned building you are squatting in.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 19:39

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Cyrano4747 posted:

You're a grad student living in Germany. Please don't burn down the "communal residence" that you and your friends call the abandoned building you are squatting in.

east germany, to be specific

# ? Jul 25, 2016 19:42

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Does that mean it's already burned down for your convenience? Or is it just concrete poured into a mold and probably fireproof?

# ? Jul 25, 2016 20:01

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

HEY GAL posted:

wait, for real? i think that's what i have. getting some ballistol now

ok, i don't understand all of the chemistry stuff, but this does not seem that bad. where's the dangerous stuff?
https://www.krollcorp.com/files/forms/Break-FreeCLPLiquidCLPMIL-EREVA.pdf

xthetenth posted:

Does that mean it's already burned down for your convenience? Or is it just concrete poured into a mold and probably fireproof?

have you ever wished your cities had more generic concrete boxes? well,

# ? Jul 25, 2016 20:34

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# ? May 20, 2024 13:24

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

"CLP" is a term that gets used a bit too generically and which has undergone a few different revisions to the recipe over the decades. IIRC the vietnam-90s era stuff had something in it that got removed in the 00s, but I'm fuzzy on the details.

I wouldn't drink or bathe in it, but I also wouldn't get overly concerned about incidental, occasional exposure. Chances are you get worse from living near automobiles on city streets.

# ? Jul 25, 2016 21:46

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