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Patter Song posted:That map will always be special for me, especially because it has this massive empire chilling for thousands of years and then suddenly vanishing right before writing is invented. do you think they communicated through the world's longest distance game of telephone or did they just send a guy from one end of the continent to the other and hope he had a memory good enough to tell the guy at the other end what he was supposed to without forgetting any of it?
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Jul 23, 2016 05:23
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Pornographic Memory posted:do you think they communicated through the world's longest distance game of telephone or did they just send a guy from one end of the continent to the other and hope he had a memory good enough to tell the guy at the other end what he was supposed to without forgetting any of it? Well, that map leaves off the Hwan empire's control of Ingaguk, that is, Peru. Obviously they used quipu which have just deteriorated by now, explaining the complete lack of documentation.
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Jul 23, 2016 05:33
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Maybe they just, like, shouted.
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Jul 23, 2016 05:33
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Mantis42 posted:Maybe they just, like, shouted. Just one dude set up every 50m across the width of the Empire 
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Jul 23, 2016 05:52
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The actual Korean state had mountaintop fire signal stations across the peninsula. It's thought they could get an invasion alarm from the northern border to the capital and all the way to the southeast coast in a couple of hours. Basically that scene from Lord of the Rings except real.
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Jul 23, 2016 05:58
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Koreans are the cleanest race and so superior to all lower peoples that they can govern a world spanning empire without the need for something as decadent as writing. They probably use ESP to relay orders and manage everything.
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Jul 23, 2016 06:19
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Grand Fromage posted:
C'mon, man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpYRZdw0UpA
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Jul 23, 2016 07:54
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The Great Wall as you imagine it and as illustrated didn't exist during the Han dynasty man.
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Jul 23, 2016 09:50
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:The Great Wall as you imagine it and as illustrated didn't exist during the Han dynasty man. That's specifically why I didn't change the part that says "except real" in the quoted text. It is to indicate that the Disney movie is not a historically accurate depiction of the life of a probably mythical person.
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Jul 23, 2016 10:06
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I rewatched all of Rome last week, and I really enjoyed my favorite and most possibly-historically accurate part: the Newsreader. Although probably dissemination of news and propaganda in the late Republic was more sophisticated.
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Jul 23, 2016 12:56
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I also very much don't mind the battle scenes not being in there.
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Jul 23, 2016 12:57
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Jerusalem posted:Just one dude set up every 50m across the width of the Empire This is roughly how the Gauls communicated during the time periods of the Roman invasions. One farmer would yell to the next, and thus word would spread of a summons to war. There was apparently a cadence and tone put to the various languages that made it possible to get basic ideas across in such a manner.
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Jul 23, 2016 14:08
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Tacticus has a whole section on fire signals'quote:Aeneas, therefore, the writer of the treatise on tactics, wished to correct this defect, and did in fact make some improvement; but his invention still fell very far short of what was wanted, as the following passage from his treatise will show. "Let p203those who wish," he says, "to communicate any matter of pressing importance to each other by fire-signals prepare two earthenware vessels of exactly equal size both as to diameter and depth. Let the depth be three cubits, the diameter one. Then prepare corks of a little shorter diameter than that of the mouths of the vessels: and in the middle of these corks fix rods divided into equal portions of three fingers' breadth, and let each of these portions be marked with a clearly distinguishable line; and in each let there be written one of the most obvious and universal events which occur in war; for instance in the first 'cavalry have entered the country,' in the second 'hoplites,' in the third 'light-armed,' in the next 'infantry and cavalry,' in another 'ships,' in another 'corn,'º and so on, until all the portions have had written on them the measure on the part of the enemy which may reasonably be foreseen and are most likely to occur in the present emergency. Then carefully pierce both the vessels in such a way that the taps shall be exactly equal and carry off the same amount of water. Fill the vessels with water and lay the corks with their rods upon its surface and set both taps running together. This being done, it is evident that, if there is perfect equality in every respect between them, both corks will sink exactly in proportion as the water runs away, and both rods will disappear to the same extent into the vessels. When they have been tested and the rate of the discharge of the water has been found to be exactly equal in both, then the vessels should be taken p205respectively to the two places from which the two parties intend to watch for fire‑signals. As soon as any one of these eventualities which are inscribed upon the rods takes place, Aeneas bids raise a lighted torch, and wait until the signal is answered by a torch from the others; then, when both torches have been simultaneously visible, lower them, and then immediately set the taps running. When the cork and rod on the signalling side has sunk low enough to bring the ring containing the words which give the desiredj information on a level with the rim of the vessel, a torch is to be raised again. Those on the receiving side are then at once to stop the tap, and to see which of the messages written on the rod is on a level with the rim of their vessel. This will be the same as that on the signalling side, assuming everything to be done at the same speed on both sides."1
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Jul 23, 2016 14:19
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Tunicate posted:Tacticus has a whole section on fire signals' 
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Jul 23, 2016 15:02
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Ynglaur posted:This is roughly how the Gauls communicated during the time periods of the Roman invasions. One farmer would yell to the next, and thus word would spread of a summons to war. There was apparently a cadence and tone put to the various languages that made it possible to get basic ideas across in such a manner. They may have used a whistle based register of their language. You can get a few miles of range out of it. There are still a few cultures that use whistles in this manner today.
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Jul 23, 2016 16:03
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TheLawinator posted:They may have used a whistle based register of their language. You can get a few miles of range out of it. There are still a few cultures that use whistles in this manner today. That's an interesting idea. I poked around a little bit, though, and it sounds as though languages known to do that aren't European in origin. Latin and Gaulish were linguistic siblings (or at least cousins), based on the tiny amount of Gaulish we know.
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Jul 23, 2016 16:23
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homullus posted:That's an interesting idea. I poked around a little bit, though, and it sounds as though languages known to do that aren't European in origin. Latin and Gaulish were linguistic siblings (or at least cousins), based on the tiny amount of Gaulish we know. There are whistle languages used in France, Spain, and Greece currently.
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Jul 23, 2016 16:38
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TheLawinator posted:There are whistle languages used in France, Spain, and Greece currently. Tell me more about the French one. The one in Spain is an adaptation to Spanish from a Berber language.
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Jul 23, 2016 16:45
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homullus posted:Tell me more about the French one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBpthkOFPvA
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Jul 23, 2016 16:52
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homullus posted:Tell me more about the French one. The one in Spain is an adaptation to Spanish from a Berber language. There's one on the French side of the Pyrenees, in Bearn. It's based off of the local Occitan dialect. The thing about whistle languages is they tend to be rural and isolated so records of them will be sparse. They tend to show up in mountainous regions and dense forests. If you're looking for more research, Julien Meyer is your guy.
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Jul 23, 2016 17:13
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PittTheElder posted:The Great Wall as you imagine it and as illustrated didn't exist during the Han dynasty man. Neither did the Forbidden City but guess where the climax of Mulan takes place.
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Jul 23, 2016 19:47
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TheLawinator posted:There are whistle languages used in France, Spain, and Greece currently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYKBTjSNMv8
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Jul 24, 2016 15:05
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I'm reading the whole thread from the beginning since I'm behind like 10k posts and this one from 3 years ago sure rings true today...Bitter Mushroom posted:Crassus really strikes me as the Donald Trump of his day.
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Jul 24, 2016 15:25
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I'm reading the whole thread from the beginning since I'm behind like 10k posts and this one from 3 years ago sure rings true today... He will also die in a desolate wasteland while chasing elusive, nomadic, desert people.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:09
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Chichevache posted:He will also die in a desolate wasteland while chasing elusive, nomadic, desert people. Nah, we don't expect our presidents to have served anymore. That stopped in 1992.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:27
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Pouring molten gold down his throat feels like a thing that could possibly happen.
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Jul 25, 2016 06:38
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Grand Fromage posted:Pouring molten gold down his throat feels like a thing that could possibly happen. Considering he looks like he's been dipped in gold already, I don't think pouring molten gold down his throat would do anything.
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Jul 25, 2016 10:38
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Ynglaur posted:This is roughly how the Gauls communicated during the time periods of the Roman invasions. One farmer would yell to the next, and thus word would spread of a summons to war. There was apparently a cadence and tone put to the various languages that made it possible to get basic ideas across in such a manner. Also see: whistling language. Though I don't think there's evidence for a lot of that in europe but I dunno. http://youtu.be/PgEmSb0cKBg Edit: poo poo beaten badly. Well I guess there are european examples rhen.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:13
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I want to tell you all about a fun occasion in the Roman Empire: the extemely complicated Civil Wars of the Tetrarchy. I am writing this post to educate, to entertain, and to remind myself in case I forget the specific events. Diocletian managed to take control of a Roman Empire broken by decades of brutal civil strife, barbarian invasions, economic collapse, and plague. He envisioned a future regime that would be stable enough to maintain the shaky Empire for years to come. He instituted a Tetrarchy, a system in which the Empire would be ruled by four men. The imperium would be divided into East and West and each sphere ruled by a senior Emperor, an Augustus, who would have a subordinate Emperor under him, styled Caesar. When the Augustii got too old to rule, they would jointly voluntarily abdicate, and be replaced by their Caesarii, and so on and so forth down the ages to come, thus ensuring a bloodless succession forever. In practice, this didn't work out. On the eve of Diocletian's abdication, the Empire was ruled by himself in the East with the Caesar Galerius, and the general Maximian in the West with the Caesar Constantius Chlorus. I will now use numbered points, because it makes the events to come seem much more rational. 1. 305 A.D. Diocletian retires and forces his fellow Augustus, Maximian, to retire as well. Constantius Chlorus and Galerius are now Augustus in the West and the East, respectively. 2. Constantius chooses Severus as his Caesar in the West and Galerius chooses Maximinus Daia as his Caesar in the East. 3. Constantius Chlorus dies and his troops proclaim, in defiance of the existing system, and possibly with a little help, his son Constantine to be the new Augustus of the West. 4. Severus claims his right to move up from Caesar to Augustus in the West, with Galerius' help. 5. Maxentius, the son of Maximian, decides to out of nowhere set up his own claim to be Augustus of the West. 6. Severus moves to take out Maxentius, as a prelude to taking out Constantine, but is surprised when Maximian comes out of retirement to help out his son. 7. Maxentius/Maximian defeat Severus. 8. Galerius invades Italy, trying to take out the Ms, and fails. Severus is executed. 9. Maximian betrays his son. In a bunch of maneuvering, Maxentius wins, his father is defeated and Maximian flees to the East, to Galerius. At this point, Maxentius controls Italy and Africa, Constantine has the rest of the West, and Galerius and Maximinus Daia control the entire East. The dividing line between East and West is in the Balkans. Although it is only 2 years after his abdication, the Tetrarchy Diocletian envisioned exists only in one half of the Empire. The arrangement he envisioned would keep Rome from bloody internecine squabbles has lead to a bunch of pointless bloody internecine squabbles. His partner, Maximian, has come out of retirement and is actively involved. Finally Diocletian calls a meeting at Carnuntum in 308. At this meeting, Constantine and Maxentius are given a sort of semi-Caesar rank, Maximian promises to be good, just like before, and a childhood best friend of Galerius, Licinius, becomes nominally Western Agustus. Everybody ignores the Carnuntum conference, and Diocletian, and goes back to their war. I'm going back to numbering events because it gets real complicated again. 1. 308 A.D. Licinius is nominally Augustus of the West, but controls only the Balkans, the part of the West that Galerius, his best friend, unopposed Augustus of the East, can force his will on. Maxentius has Italy and Africa, Constantine has the rest of the West. 2. Maximian, who is somehow still getting jobs and somehow still in positions of power, is put in charge of part of Constantine's army in Gaul, and rebels against him. Constantine gets him to commit suicide. 3. Galerius dies. His Caesar, Maximinus Daia, tries to move into the Augustus position. He is blocked by nominal Augustus of the West, Licinius. 4. Licinius and Maximinus Daia divide up the East among each other. Licinius decides to forget about being Augustus of the West. Never even heard of Carnuntum. 5. Maxentius declares war on Constantine, possibly to avenge his father. 6. Constantine and Licinius ally together. 7. Maxentius and Maximinus Daia ally together. 8. Constantine and Maxentius fight it out for the West. Constantine wins. Roman Christianity possibly comes from this war. 9. Licinius and Maximinus Daia fight it out for the East. Licinius wins. So now it's 313 and the incredibly complicated civil war that began back in 305 is supposedly over. Best friends for life Constantine and Licinius control the Empire, one in the West, one in the East, and they've killed all their enemies. Certainly this will end well! Basically, no. Constantine and Licinius essentially jockey for position and grow to hate each other until finally after 11 years their East-West Cold War goes hot and explodes. Constantine wins (obviously). No one ever says Tetrarchy, and Diocletian -- who outlasted his fellow Augustus Maximian and died peacefully in a giant palace -- spun in his grave.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:25
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He had the best cabbage garden a man could ask for, though.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:09
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cheerfullydrab posted:Diocletian -- who outlasted his fellow Augustus Maximian and died peacefully in a giant palace -- spun in his grave. Yeah but his cabbages were on point. Edit: Goddammit never thought I'd be beaten to a,"Diocletian's Cabbage garden" joke. 
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Jul 25, 2016 13:10
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What's your impression of Stilicho, Honorius' regent? I've been listening to the History of Rome podcast about him. According to the podcast he wins most of his fights by outmanuevering his opponents. Is this impression accurate? I am under the impression that generals who make a real effort to always have the better terrain are pretty rare. So is he one of the best generals of the 4th and 5th centuries? Or is he just an incompetent jerk face who set up the conditions for the sack of Rome?
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Jul 25, 2016 16:35
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Mantis42 posted:Neither did the Forbidden City but guess where the climax of Mulan takes place. Disney is the worst.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:29
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PittTheElder posted:Disney is the worst. Don't even get me started on how much that noted documentaries about medieval England, the sword in the stone and robin hood, made me Wdit: fire alarm though Pocahontas should never have been made
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Jul 25, 2016 18:18
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Cyrano4747 posted:
It's a boring awful film irrespective of history or politics, so no debate there.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:04
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Really autocorrect? You let Wdit through but changed "for real" to "fire alarm"?
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Jul 25, 2016 19:19
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Cyrano4747 posted:Really autocorrect? You let Wdit through but changed "for real" to "fire alarm"? thought you were just trying to mark your post as a hot take
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Jul 25, 2016 19:21
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My username is the mark of a hot take
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Jul 25, 2016 19:40
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Cyrano4747 posted:Don't even get me started on how much that noted documentaries about medieval England, the sword in the stone and robin hood, made me i liked the cockney accent the hero's brother had
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Jul 25, 2016 20:39
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homullus posted:That's an interesting idea. I poked around a little bit, though, and it sounds as though languages known to do that aren't European in origin. Latin and Gaulish were linguistic siblings (or at least cousins), based on the tiny amount of Gaulish we know. Wait, wasn't Gaulish a Celtic language, meaning that it was about as closely related to Latin as German is to Hindi/Urdu?
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Jul 26, 2016 03:46
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