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Corbeau posted:No, it's not, and the reason is Flashbang. Stuns are a huge deal. McCree was already regularly seeing play prior to this patch. If "being in the tier just above Bastion/Mei/Zenyatta" means regular play then yes, you are right.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:09
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All these complaints about McCree remind me of when the game was new and how Bastion was the most OP hero and forever would be. Or that brief period of time where Mei was (and still is, in some circles)
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Jul 25, 2016 04:10
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The biggest issue with McCree right now is that he's relatively squishy and takes a million years to get back into the fight if you have to walk it. e: not complaining about this, to be clear, it's fair enough. But it's his only real downside.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:12
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Canemacar posted:D.Va feels a little too good after her re-balance. She can both tank and flank too well. I think they need to slightly nerf either her boosters or defense matrix depending on what role the devs want her to play. To me the most interesting thing about this has been that the changes to D.Va didn't involve any of the big three things that people typically brought up as her weaknesses pre-patch, namely her damage/falloff, her movement speed while shooting, or her centermass headbox. Literally none of those things got any tweaks whatsoever but now all at once the sentiment seems to be shifting to "D.Va is now too good and needs to be nerfed" due to this and the tweaks to her ult, which was previously largely the province of people making "Amazing PotG!" YouTube montages and not much else.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:12
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Ddraig posted:You do realize that the damage McCree can do now from distance was always possible at Flashbang ranges, right? Yeah, and that's fine. Just don't give him enormous range on top of his short-mid range damage.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:12
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Mcrees damage falloff is too little atm
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Jul 25, 2016 04:14
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Corbeau posted:Yeah, and that's fine. Just don't give him enormous range on top of his short-mid range damage. His close range damage isn't really anything to write home about now. The flashbang stun is good utility that lets him pin down flighty targets that might be hard to finish off otherwise, which isn't nothing, but if short-range damage is his thing then there's no real reason to take him over characters like Reaper who do that better. Opposing Farce fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 04:17
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SadisTech posted:The biggest issue with McCree right now is that he's relatively squishy and takes a million years to get back into the fight if you have to walk it. Every other offensive hero has lots of mobility, self healing or survivability. McCree has literally none of these things. He's the glass canon of Overwatch.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:20
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Roadhog owns. THESE ARE THE CARDS THAT MATTER
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Jul 25, 2016 04:20
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Corbeau posted:Yeah, and that's fine. Just don't give him enormous range on top of his short-mid range damage. Your argument seemed to hinge on the reason that McCree is OP is because he has the ability to stun. He's always had this ability. and he's always been able to do the kind of damage he's doing now from the ranges at which the flashbang was usable. I fail to see how him having a flashbang has anything to do with his midrange damage potential, which is what people are complaining about these days.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:25
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The flashbang is the reason why he's not allowed to cover too many other bases, which he does right now. IMO the FtH McCree was better for the game than the current McCree.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:27
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Ddraig posted:Your argument seemed to hinge on the reason that McCree is OP is because he has the ability to stun. He's always had this ability. and he's always been able to do the kind of damage he's doing now from the ranges at which the flashbang was usable. The flashbang makes him safe even if you close the gap with him. He's not a mid range character with close range weakness, rather an any range character really.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:28
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Corbeau posted:The flashbang is the reason why he's not allowed to cover too many other bases, which he does right now. IMO the FtH McCree was better for the game than the current McCree. Well your opinion is wrong, seeing as how FTH McCree completely nullified the existence of multiple other heroes completely. I mean, there was absolutely, literally zero reason to ever play as Reaper while FTH existed as was because what Reaper specialized in (taking down tanks/supports quickly) McCree did 10x better. McCree's good now. He wasn't before. Him being good does not make any other heroes worse, just different. There are scenarios where I would pick the other offense heroes over McCree in a heartbeat, because they all have different strengths and weaknesses compared to McCree and fit certain situations better.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:34
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I don't understand why they extended the range before damage falloff for McCree instead of making the falloff less severe.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:40
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lmao at everyone who is so grievously offended that D.Va's ult can actually kill people now
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Jul 25, 2016 04:41
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I mean the only reason why professional teams are picking Soldier is because they can't have a second McCree, so yeah I'd say his current incarnation is Pretty Bad. Plus there's the extinction of Pharah (which 76 didn't even manage pre-nerf), which also spills over to Mercy (though she's still an occasional show).
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Jul 25, 2016 04:44
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The only Pharah that went extinct was the Pharah who flew around with a giant "Hit me!" sign painted on them when nobody could reliably hit. Now they can reliably hit, and they've vanished. Who would have thought that being out of cover 90% of the time would not give you immunity to bullets? It's inconceivable.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:48
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I think you're playing against bad McCrees tbh.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:50
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Soothing Vapors posted:lmao at everyone who is so grievously offended that D.Va's ult can actually kill people now I don't really like its huge range compared to some other ults, but hey that's kinda the special thing about it e: on 2nd thought, it falls into a similar category as Deadeye Unoriginal Name fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 04:52
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Corbeau posted:I think you're playing against bad McCrees tbh. Nah, I've played against plenty of good McCree players, it's just that he's not really the God Emperor people are claiming him to be. He has no movement, no self heal, his only reliable method of escape is the flashbang and that won't really get you out of range of his biggest threats by the time it wears off and a very binary damage system where it's either hit or not. I also do play quite a lot of McCree and it's fun when there's actual good Pharahs on the enemy team who realize that the sky offers no cover so minimize the time they're in the air and use their amazing mobility to quickly get to areas where McCree can't get to. I've been seeing a lot more of those types of Pharah players and it's great. They're a lot more interesting to fight than the perpetual hover machine who coasted along on the notion that very few people could do sustained enough damage to negate the Mercy surgically attached to them.
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Jul 25, 2016 04:56
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e: Also, for further anecdotal evidence, Seagull/other top 500 players have been saying he's oppressive since he was on PTR. Good aim is rewarded too heavily on him right now, so even if the left click buff won't help people who can't aim well it doesn't mean he isn't too strong at higher levels.Ddraig posted:Well your opinion is wrong, seeing as how FTH McCree completely nullified the existence of multiple other heroes completely. I think his point isn't that FTH McCree with his damage as it was is a good place balance wise, but rather that a McCree that has an identity linked more closely to FTH/flashbang cloer range combos is healthier for the game in terms of not crowding out other heroes. At the moment, McCree's left click means that with aim he pretty much invalidates Soldier 76 as a character (in the mid/long range dps category) by being better, and Pharah by being able to kill her so quickly/easily (yes, Pharahs can hide constantly, but at a certain point the time they spent hiding is going to mean that they're significantly less effective anyway even if they aren't dying to McCree). However, with flashbang + left clicks he is also a very strong close range dps character who can still go toe to toe with flankers. Basically, when his left click is too strong, it means that he can fill 2 roles well, and shoves out characters either countered by his archetype or worse versions of him. When FTH is his main tool for killing people, and his left click is weaker, but if FTH is appropriately balanced, then his identity is more focused/coherent and he doesn't shove out other characters. It's basically a question of where his main dps is -- FTH or left clicking, and then a question of how high that dps is to determine if he's in a good place. The argument is that if the left click is his main source of damage, and too high then he doesn't work because he is strong mid/long range as well as close because of it. If left click is his main damage and too low, he doesn't work because he can't compete mid/long range and can't compete short range. However, if FTH is more significant, he becomes easier to balance because it means adjusting the cd/numbers will make him stronger/weaker in close range/as a flanker, WITHOUT also making him commensurately stronger/weaker at mid/long range. They could also add drop off to the left click or what have you, but the basic idea is that the way McCree's power is distributed right now means that he's pretty much automatically going to be either too good of a choice vs other heroes or a bad one without much middle ground. So they either need to move power from the left click to FTH, change the left click so it's weaker long range, etc. to make him easier to balance. e: I should add, I kept just saying FTH-centric McCree, but it could be FTH or FTH plus a left click that has higher dmg fall-off and the same principle would work. Probably the latter makes more sense, FTH damage getting too high gets oppressive fast. The basic idea is consolidate his damage more at short/mid range rather than giving him good damage at all ranges. foutre fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 05:08
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RIP ZEEZ
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Corbeau posted:The flashbang is the reason why he's not allowed to cover too many other bases, which he does right now. IMO the FtH McCree was better for the game than the current McCree. Not at all. Release McCree was a literal "If your in flashbang range you lose" ecperience and it suckkkkked.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:10
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At least the current Mcree incarnation actually has to aim, which is a bar to high for most brainlesss players to pass.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:12
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Internet Kraken posted:At least the current Mcree incarnation actually has to aim, which is a bar to high for most brainlesss players to pass. Indeed, and if they're good at McCree, chances are good they'd probably be able to wipe the floor with you using any other hero too, seeing as how McCree is literally the most basic hitscan character around, i.e. the simplest form of FPS shooting there is.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:13
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Ddraig posted:Indeed, and if they're good at McCree, chances are good they'd probably be able to wipe the floor with you using any other hero too, seeing as how McCree is literally the most basic hitscan character around, i.e. the simplest form of FPS shooting there is. I think you have that backwards. Being able to point and click at something doesn't necessarily translate into being able to track or lead your shots.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:17
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Ddraig posted:McCree is literally the most basic hitscan character around, i.e. the simplest form of FPS shooting there is. Im pretty sure thats still 76 the hero created to cater to CoD players.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:17
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Internet Kraken posted:At least the current Mcree incarnation actually has to aim, which is a bar to high for most brainlesss players to pass. I think the current McCree is better than when FtH is dominant for the inverse reason, which is that at least now people can't complain about how he doesn't require aim.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:17
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Ddraig posted:Indeed, and if they're good at McCree, chances are good they'd probably be able to wipe the floor with you using any other hero too, seeing as how McCree is literally the most basic hitscan character around, i.e. the simplest form of FPS shooting there is. Sure, a better player can beat a worse one on McCree or whoever. But a good McCree player with aim of x will be more effective than a player on Soldier 76 or other hitscan hero with the same aim x, which is a problem. e: All this isn't a problem for me since I loving suck at aiming, which I guess gets into the question of if you should balance characters for a high or medium or w.e level of play, but it feels like there's an alternative that could work for all skill levels.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:18
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it's not just that mccree is better at range now; it's that soldier is worse. it might not have been a huge nerf, but it did more than enough and I think that changing mccree back to what he was would just make pharah even more dominant than she was before because her counters wouldn't be strong enough to lock her out. that would be way worse since dealing with a hero with the mobility pharah has is a much bigger problem than a slow, grounded glass cannon as is, the only characters that mccree locks down are soldier and pharah, and I don't think either of them are gonna disappear completely. fth mccree shut out both of them, roadhog, reaper, genji, really anything that got close to him or had a similar function could not perform against fan the hammer because the stun was a guaranteed kill on anything that wasn't a tank hero, who would die anyway to the fan-roll-fan. he invalidated half the game by himself. he's in a much better place now as a midrange hitscan character
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Jul 25, 2016 05:20
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Fortunately Im really cool, smart, and attractive, good at games too so no changes really make much of a difference to me
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Jul 25, 2016 05:22
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Soldier isnt bad. He can still deal good damage, has a rocket for an alt fire, good mobility and an AOE heal. I play a lot of McCree and 76 they are about even in a 1v1 fight.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:23
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foutre posted:Sure, a better player can beat a worse one on McCree or whoever. But a good McCree player with aim of x will be more effective than a player on Soldier 76 or other hitscan hero with the same aim x, which is a problem. Not really? I mean, Soldier has the ability to heal, faster movement speed, sustained damage, high spike damage with his rocket, and a much better ult that doesn't leave him nearly as vulnerable as McCree. I mean, literally all McCree has is his raw killing power. He moves slow, has no reliable means of protecting/healing himself and might aswell not really have an ult because it gets shut down so easily unless he goes out of his way to use it or is behind a barrier. if you have a good team who is protecting McCree with Reinhardt and healing him with Mercy then yes he absolutely rocks the face off Soldier, but the major advantage Soldier has is that he doesn't need that level of support in order to be incredibly effective. He's a one-man army etc. Again, not better - just different.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:26
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Ddraig posted:Not really? I mean, Soldier has the ability to heal, faster movement speed, sustained damage, high spike damage with his rocket, and a much better ult that doesn't leave him nearly as vulnerable as McCree. None of that poo poo matters.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:30
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I feel that... it does matter
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Jul 25, 2016 05:55
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"You must be this good to do well with him" is basically irrelevant as a balance consideration. "He can completely run away with games in the hands of an insanely skilled player," on the other hand, is a problem. Also, alpha strike damage is better than tracking damage, and McCree's alpha strike is hitscan and his M1, while Soldier's is projectile and on a fairly long cooldown.
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Jul 25, 2016 05:58
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Ddraig, if you play competitive, what rank are you at?
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Jul 25, 2016 06:05
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Anecdotal, but I'm rank 54 and most players in my matches seem to be around that point, and Pharahs still run absolute riot despite most teams having a McCree now. There seems to be a strong motivation for people to fire at slower moving ground targets rather than try and hit her in the air. At least 2, 3 times a game I and other people are saying "Hitscan on Pharah please!" "McCree! Focus on the Pharah!" and it keeps not happening. I regularly see people bring in a Soldier to try to counter her since McCree isn't doing it. Also, and kind of related, one of the bummers of tending to play support is that it's very hard to swap to other roles as needed since no-one else will pick up the heals.
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Jul 25, 2016 06:10
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If Blizzard nerfs McCree to be useless again and they do it before touching D.Va then I might have to wash my hands with this game. It would be the best way of pointing out that Blizzard can't really look at hero balance correctly.
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Jul 25, 2016 06:42
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Orange Crush Rush posted:If Blizzard nerfs McCree to be useless again and they do it before touching D.Va then I might have to wash my hands with this game. It would be the best way of pointing out that Blizzard can't really look at hero balance correctly. What do you think is wrong with D.Va?
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Jul 25, 2016 06:44
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Her Matrix is by far the strongest defensive ability in the game and it's about as spammable as Pharah's flight, while having easily the best ult among Tanks (and a contender for top 5 Ults in the game honestly). Being a 500 block of armor is pretty big too, despite her massive headshot box because you can only crit her from the front and she will have DM up anytime you can deal big damage to her. Her range is poo poo and she's still slow, but then again that's the same with every other tank and now she has a lot more strengths then most of them. Also they should probably get rid of that whole "you can still self-destruct if they kill your mech" thing now, before the trade off on doing that was you would probably die from the blast but now you just punish them for shooting your mech on the objective.
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Jul 25, 2016 06:48
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