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McCree being good again after being "useless" for so long has reminded me why I dislike him, I've been sniped by him more than the sniper characters recently. Wish I had aim that good. I can't say I find D.va overpowered yet, though dying to the ult can sometimes feel unfair, and it's nice to see her getting used more in general.
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Jul 25, 2016 11:46
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D.Va's ult is so easy to get away from. It gives you like 3 seconds to find anything to break LOS with it then you're fine
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Jul 25, 2016 12:03
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Fateo McMurray posted:D.Va's ult is so easy to get away from. It gives you like 3 seconds to find anything to break LOS with it then you're fine It's apparently possible to not quite break LOS with many of the tanks though, I've been caught trying to hide behind fence posts and street lamps as roadhog. Not full damage, but a lot.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:11
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Jul 25, 2016 12:13
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D.Va is fine. McCree is fine. Hanzo is fine. Git gud. Stop complaining.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:17
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LCL-Dead posted:D.Va is fine. Hanzo could probably use something a little extra since his kit was sort of built around the broken hitboxes, but the rest is true. It's sort of amazing how all of the heroes who were largely considered useless, having had minor buffs, are now the most broken in the game according to goons. Zenyatta, McCree and D.Va are not free kills anymore. This is broken because...
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Jul 25, 2016 12:21
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LCL-Dead posted:D.Va is fine. Hanzo is definitely not fine. There is like no point to him now that McCree got buffed to be a mid-range powerhouse and the head hitboxes got nerfed.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:30
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I can't remember the last time I had a quick play match without an Ana in it. It's all the frustration of having a bad sniper on your team, with the added benefit of not having a real healer.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:42
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Ddraig posted:Hanzo could probably use something a little extra since his kit was sort of built around the broken hitboxes, but the rest is true. The big problem with McCree is that there is no stage or situation in the game where you would want any other character to replace him, and picking any character instead of slotting McCree will more often than not mean the team that doesn't have him will lose in a shut out fashion. When teams can't afford to switch one particular character out, that indicates a big problem with that particular character's balance. It's totally anecdotal, but I've noticed that the high level comp matches can more often than not be determined by who has the better cowboy. Pharah was previously the big problem character, and a good Pharah could definitely tear a team up, but teams were not heavily predisposed to losing without fielding her compared to the current McCree meta. D.va can be changed out for other tanks or another DPS pretty easily, and is a good core tank now. She compliments really, really well with all of the other tanks except Roadhog, and can also be a huge nuisance running around with DPS flankers protecting them. She's in a really good place right now balance-wise. Hanzo isn't suffering so much from his kit, because he can still one shot or nearly one shot anyone on the enemy team every eight seconds, but is suffering from the fact that McCree does his job better in almost every single metric. Why pick Hanzo when you can pick McCree, and why pick Hanzo when McCree can easily shoot him to death before he can be useful? My accuracy with Hanzo hasn't suffered in the slightest since the patch, but his survivability vs. McCree is pretty awful if you don't focus exclusively on pelting him with a scatter arrow every time he shows up. His old mid range rival S76 wasn't able to burst him down in a second, which gave him enough time to get his arrows down range. This is no longer the case with McCree having the same range profile as S76. He has the same problems with McCree that Pharah does. Also, Ana is a dumpster fire of confused mechanics that give career snipers the ability to continue to not heal their teammates while also doing significantly less damage. Commoners fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 12:44
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Ehud posted:I can't remember the last time I had a quick play match without an Ana in it. It's all the frustration of having a bad sniper on your team, with the added benefit of not having a real healer. I rarely see an Ana without a second healer in quick play. Frequently she gets partnered with Zenyatta which I think is fine.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:46
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Dva still rezzes without her mech so there are many situations where she is still much worse to have than rein or roadhog or even winston. I think giving the update more time to settle in will show how the game is actually in a pretty good place right now.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:47
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Here's my McCree balance suggestion: When two McCree's on opposing teams use Deadeye close together every other member of their teams are moved to the sidelines where they can watch in anticipation and/or horror, possibly with some of the waifus fainting at the outcome. They should also play this in the background. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1PfrmCGFnk Commoners posted:The big problem with McCree is that there is no stage or situation in the game where you would want any other character to replace him, and picking any character instead of slotting McCree will more often than not mean the team that doesn't have him will lose in a shut out fashion. When teams can't afford to switch one particular character out, that indicates a big problem with that particular character's balance. It's totally anecdotal, but I've noticed that the high level comp matches can more often than not be determined by who has the better cowboy. This is not actually true, though. I have won many games, post McCree buff, where McCree was both not picked and would not have been particularly useful if he had been. If there's more than one tank on the enemy team McCree is probably not going to be hugely helpful, and I would pick Reaper over him in a heartbeat. Ditto if the team is deathballing pretty hard. If the enemy team is deathballing and they're shutting down Reaper a lot then Pharah would be an excellent pick because she has the ability to easily get behind the enemy and go for key picks with incidental splash damage and the ability to separate tanks from the rest of their team. Her ult is also far, far more useful in that scenario. Soldier is also an excellent pick because he's still a very good all-rounder, and Tracer is Tracer and no other hero really fills her niche. Same for Genji. Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 12:48
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Mystery Machine posted:I don't get why people think D.va's matrix is overpowered. because it counters them, and they are salty little babies who would rather cry for nerfs than adapt
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Jul 25, 2016 12:50
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Mierenneuker posted:I rarely see an Ana without a second healer in quick play. Frequently she gets partnered with Zenyatta which I think is fine. I am playing at low levels because I just restarted on PC after playing PS4 since release. It's probably worse where I am playing.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:53
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A full charge Hanzo arrow happens a lot quicker than every 8 seconds and I've seen good Hanzo players shut down pushes completely on both payload and KOTH maps. I think most people bitch about Hanzo because he's not easy to use/master. Why waste time learning how to lead your target properly when you can hitscan cheese it with everyone else via Widowmaker / McCree / S76? That, imo, is why I believe everyone bitches about Hanzo. He fucks poo poo up if you can aim and judge distance / flight times properly. As far as comp is concerned, I don't pay attention to the pro-tier comp strategy because I'm here to actually have fun while I play. Not rage out because D.Va blocked my aimbot or death from above and it cost us the match.
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Jul 25, 2016 12:56
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You might have had a case that there's literally no reason to pick any other offense hero over McCree if fan the hammer was still incredibly broken, because that actually was true, because McCree was just a counter to everything and everyone and was good enough to render all other offensive hero roles obsolete. Want to take down a tank? You could pick Reaper, but why would you over McCree? Flankers loving up your day? McCree to the rescue! Need to take down the healer? McCree reporting for duty. And so on and so on.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:04
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Reinhardt as a Death Matchine of kills and destruction seems to be a popular thing now. For the love of god shrink the hitbox of his charge because I step out of the way and am magnetically attached to his shoulder anyway.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:10
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LCL-Dead posted:A full charge Hanzo arrow happens a lot quicker than every 8 seconds and I've seen good Hanzo players shut down pushes completely on both payload and KOTH maps. I'll disagree and say that Hanzo is really easy to use, and agree that he is difficult to master. The reason everyone bitches about Hanzo is because people pick him and then spend the rest of the round masturbating to dragons and dogs while across the map from the objective instead of scuttling up lamp posts like a roach and getting in the fight to tiger palm punch people for the sake of pounding home the arrow that you just inserted into their eye socket. People also get salty about Hanzo because most Hanzo players get most of their kills by accidentally shooting someone when they missed their actual target. He is like Inspector Magoo of marksmanship. Pro-tier comp strategies are just people doing whatever it takes to win in the current rules set up. People who chimp out whenever they lose don't make it far in competitive environments, because losing regularly is a huge part of competing in anything.  The pro level play is a very good litmus test for determining what characters may be balanced poorly. If a character can be interchanged with others or really shines in particular situations while flubbing in others, it's likely that they're in an okay place balance-wise. If they are considered an immutable part of the team composition that absolutely cannot be changed under any circumstances in any stage of any map, they may need to be brought in line with the rest of the character cast. The same goes for characters that are never picked under any circumstances at all.Ddraig posted:You might have had a case that there's literally no reason to pick any other offense hero over McCree if fan the hammer was still incredibly broken, because that actually was true, because McCree was just a counter to everything and everyone and was good enough to render all other offensive hero roles obsolete. And it was a completely true argument that was also reflected in the meta of the time that had at least one, possibly two McCrees per team at the time. He was considered a core character that teams could not afford to interchange with any other character, much like he is now. Commoners fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 13:19
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Commoners posted:I'll disagree and say that Hanzo is really easy to use, and agree that he is difficult to master. The reason everyone bitches about Hanzo is because people pick him and then spend the rest of the round masturbating to dragons and dogs while across the map from the objective instead of scuttling up lamp posts like a roach and getting in the fight to tiger palm punch people for the sake of pounding home the arrow that you just inserted into their eye socket. I agree with the first part, yeah, with probably the most bitching stemming from the people who play as you suggested. Even when I play Hanzo I tend to sit back a tiny bit from the action vice getting into the middle of it because he's not really a close range hero in the slightest (I guess I should test what kind of damage those uncharged arrows are doing). At the same time, I don't shy away from running up to the point to contest with Hanzo or stop a payload from moving if my team gets pushed back away from their defensive/offensive position. I also get what you're saying about comp, I just don't really partake in it. I placed at 46 and pushed up to 48 before growing tired of it. Not to mention the length of the matches and sudden death imbalance really put a damper on my view of it.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:28
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There's literally a one-hero limit in comp games. The reason why he's picked is... why wouldn't you? I mean, there's only a few offense heroes and McCree is definitely solid so there is literally no reason not to pick him in addition to other offense heroes because there's no real disadvantage. If there was a strictly one offense hero limit and McCree was always 100% slam picked and no others then yeah you might have a point but I'm not entirely sure what "McCree is picked in comp a lot" is supposed to indicate other than with a one hero limit multiple different offense heroes are picked.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:28
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Blizzard designed McCree to have a tankbuster's kit and it surprised the gently caress out of Blizzard when he started busting tanks. It's pretty clear they don't actually know what they're doing with him.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:36
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strong bird posted:Fortunately Im really cool, smart, and attractive, good at games too so no changes really make much of a difference to me Same, plus this is a video game Get a job and lose your virginity if you care about a video game.
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Jul 25, 2016 13:44
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A friend of mine literally had 26 hours played on Widowmaker and since she got nerfed and McCree god buffed he only plays McCree now, basically as if he's widowmaker
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Jul 25, 2016 13:51
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Craptacular! posted:Reinhardt as a Death Matchine of kills and destruction seems to be a popular thing now. For the love of god shrink the hitbox of his charge because I step out of the way and am magnetically attached to his shoulder anyway. No!! F*ck you get a job and lose your vidginintiy!
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Jul 25, 2016 13:58
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:A friend of mine literally had 26 hours played on Widowmaker and since she got nerfed and McCree god buffed he only plays McCree now, basically as if he's widowmaker McCree is a pretty crappy Widowmaker seeing as at the ranges Widowmaker is most effective McCree requires three headshots to take out a 200 health character. 3 opportunities to miss, vs a guaranteed kill with one hit as Widow.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:01
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Could someone please post the current Mcree statistics like before when there was like 2.3 of him on each team for every game? Cause really, he's good but not A-mei-zing like before when he was a zone of negation. Also please post the statistics showing D.Va's primary fire kill average. I'm loving all the whining about a hero that can still only kill someone every 2-3 minutes by ult. If you want to nerf her, reduce her ult gain by 10%-20%.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:16
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most of pre nerf mccree's era of dominance was during no hero limit, so his usage stats would be like 400% or something because both teams almost always had 2 each
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Jul 25, 2016 14:19
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Craptacular! posted:Reinhardt as a Death Matchine of kills and destruction seems to be a popular thing now. For the love of god shrink the hitbox of his charge because I step out of the way and am magnetically attached to his shoulder anyway. I had an experience with this last night. I was standing behind the green roadsign near the garage by point 1 on route 66, when an enemy rein charged past the sign and I got vaccumed out from behind it just in time to get splattered against the payload.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:22
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Thor-Stryker posted:Could someone please post the current Mcree statistics like before when there was like 2.3 of him on each team for every game? Current statistics will be skewed due to hero limits being implemented in most tournaments. In the qualifier tournaments that have been going week to week he has been picked 100% on every team and once picked was never switched off of under any circumstances. Most of the engagements that happened were determined by which McCree died first, and in the Euro tournaments the secondary deciding factor was which Genji could get a better dragonblade off (with the first priority for the ult always being the opposing McCree.) Other fun impacts of McCree's power have been Tracer being used extremely less frequently in KotH, Pharah who used to be dominant essentially disappearing from the meta, Roadhog picks plummeting in favor of other tanks due to his inability to mitigate incoming damage, Zenyatta taking priority over Mercy due to his ability to amplify McCree's damage output, and Widowmaker very rarely being picked because McCree is able to do her job of zoning people out of a firing lane while also mulching any of her counters that would normally be deployed. If a hero is picked 100% of the time in all situations by all competing teams, it means that his performance is a far outlier in character balance. E: Here is the most recent meta report, for tournament play right before the Ana patch hit. http://www.planetoverwatch.org/19-overwatch-tier-list-and-meta-report-the-eve-of-ana Commoners fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 14:28
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It's interesting, actually, because it's a real example of where there's a big gap between top level play balance and everyone else. Pharah still owns bones in the comp matches I'm playing, because while there is usually a McCree in every game, they don't seem to be capable of shooting her down reliably. I wonder if it's because Pharah mains have got very good while a lot of people have just picked McCree up post buff? e: Tell you what else I've noticed, and I don't know why it is... in comp, payload maps seem to end in the attackers pushing through both rounds and going to sudden death. Far more than in quick play. Maybe it's just the skill level I'm at. SadisTech fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 14:33
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There's a very good reason why McCree is being picked, and it is only partly due to his power. See if you can guess what it is.
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Jul 25, 2016 14:36
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Ddraig posted:There's a very good reason why McCree is being picked, and it is only partly due to his power. People practicing so they can use him 24/7 once his rear end-less chap skin is released?
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Jul 25, 2016 14:46
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Alris posted:Has anyone else run into a bug where after minimising the game you lose the entire HUD? Its happened twice to me now, and both times if I try to change characters I'm unable to make a selection and need to close down the entire game. Hit Alt+Z It's the hotkey to enable/disable the hug
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Jul 25, 2016 14:52
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Canemacar posted:People practicing so they can use him 24/7 once his rear end-less chap skin is released? Nailed it! Actually, like many things in the Overwatch comp scene, it's team composition, namely the double healer meta. Up until very recently soldier saw vastly more use than McCree, mainly because McCree kind of sucked at range, and Soldier was a far superior, consistent damage dealer than McCree. But the thing was that was literally the only reason Soldier was being picked. The double healer meta rendered a third of soldier's kit useless. Biotic Field was mainly a backup incase one of your healers died, otherwise Soldier was all about the damage. That's all he existed for. Then McCree was buffed to be on par with Soldier's mid range damage. Suddenly the major advantage Soldier had, being able to do damage, was essentially gone, or at the very least McCree was a much better pick with a more useful kit (Soldier's being largely worthless due to the previously mentioned double healer setup) Furthermore, all of McCree's disadvantages (lack of healing, lack of protection) are nullified by the standard comp set up of a Reinhardt/double healer, so there's literally no reason not to pick him, since Hitscan is King, his stun is quite useful and he's actually doing decent damage now that comes in higher spikes than Soldier's did, meaning there's less chance for it to be healed fully. As for why the other offense heroes aren't being picked that much? Well, McCree is kind of the hard counter to Pharah now, and he was always a counter to Tracer, and a soft counter to Genji/Reaper. Simply put, the issue isn't with McCree, and trying to fix him is going to be a Sisyphean task of perpetual disappointment if you don't actually acknowledge the elephant in the room... that double healer setup.
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Jul 25, 2016 15:02
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You can enable my hugs all day baby.
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Jul 25, 2016 15:02
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The thing i think is missing from the d va discussion is that sure its 4 seconds but many smart players don't just keep it up. A dva matrix that is up for 1.5 seconds, down for 1, up for 1.5, down for 1 etc is far more effective in a skirmish than just a solid 4 seconds since it allows a bit of cd regen between pharah rockets or during 76 reloads. She will takr a bit of damage, but negate those rockets on the way, and counter punish/fly away to recharge the matrix again. Maybe the issue is that it should recharge a bit slower or have an extra beat between the matrix recharging is what some folks mean?
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Jul 25, 2016 15:05
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foutre posted:Sure, a better player can beat a worse one on McCree or whoever. But a good McCree player with aim of x will be more effective than a player on Soldier 76 or other hitscan hero with the same aim x, which is a problem. I wouldn't necessarily say that. A McCree with good aim will do more damage than Soldier 76 or another hitscan hero, but damage is the only thing he can do. It's like saying Reaper is more effective than Roadhog because his DPS is higher - the rest of their kits are completely different, and Roadhog has so many options that Reaper doesn't that it's silly to compare DPS and declare one or the other to be straight-up better. Really, the problem as I see it is that Soldier is an all-arounder character, which isn't as necessary in high levels because people tend to specialize more and run more sensible comps. Soldier's heal isn't necessary when you've got two supports who both know where they need to be, Soldier's mobility isn't necessary when Lucio's doing his job and the team's dedicated flankers/harassers aren't incompetent, and Soldier's damage is inferior to that of a pure damage character like McCree who trades off mobility and healing for more firepower. In lower level play and unorganized teams, Soldier's versatility gives him a strong niche, but at the top it's better to specialize. The only reason people used Soldier was because Blizzard apparently forgot to give any other character the ability to deal reliable and consistent hitscan damage at both close range and midrange without being complete deadweight the entire rest of the time. Now that he's not the only character who can cope with Pharah, it's not surprising that high-level play has abandoned him, since his Pharah-busting ability was basically the only part of his kit that's useful to an organized team.
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Jul 25, 2016 15:17
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Ddraig posted:Nailed it! I said it pages ago but the Zenyatta+McCree combo is nuts and basically recreates old beta McCree (as in OHK HS from downtown, tankbuster McCree). If a team has a McCree, it should have a Zenyatta or they're doing it wrong. I disagree about McCree being a soft counter to Genji though, besides a flashbang to threaten a Genji with, Genji is particularly mobile, evasive, and deflect is a pretty strong counter to McCree. That's not to say Genji will win all the time either, they're a neutral match up. McCree also soft counters Reaper more so because Reaper is garbage against anything 5m away from him, so this isn't so much a McCree thing as it is a huge limitation on Reaper matching him up to anyone not in confined spaces. Double healer won't go away unless you're capable of out DPSing it, and that'd require ye olde tankbuster McCree to sit with Reaper. Basically, effective healing from two sources trumps trying to cram another damage dealer into the mix instead (especially with such an effective DPS as Zenyatta). Yet another reason why McCree might be well liked, high spike damage can get around a slower heal rate or outright kill someone before they can be attended to, where a high DPS but low alpha won't get similar results or may struggle. This also might be why Ana will get picked fairly often, she has a pretty drat high spike heal to deal with poo poo like that. EmpyreanFlux fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 15:26
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It's also infinitely more easy to set McCree and other damage dealers into a perpetual cycle of nerfs/debuffs than it is to acknowledge that one of the fundamental elements of the game is kind of broken and everything sort of depends on that. If you're familiar with any of Jeff "Tigole Bitties" Kaplan's previous work at balancing in other games you'll see this same depressing tendency.
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Jul 25, 2016 15:57
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lol at anyone who wants non-ult non-headshot instagibs in this game
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