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Lab Rats is cute but just not fun to play once you've done everything and helped enough people get achievements. Santa's Workshop was alright. There was some decent map design there and I liked how they divorced themselves from instantaneous objective interruptions like the latency-prone power boxes on other heists. It's just that when you've played such a cramped heist over a dozen times with quite a few of them being around an hour, I just have no desire to revisit them unless they find some way to keep it interesting.
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Jul 25, 2016 16:56
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I still like Santa's Workshop. And all the Transports. But gently caress Lab Rats.Discendo Vox posted:Payouts no longer matter for many of us, particularly those of us who are interested in a higher level of difficulty. I have ~2 billion spending cash, which is chump change compared to some. The layout of Diamond Store actually makes it considerably more intense than most other maps, even supposedly open ones. ~4.5 billion spending, 21.5 billion offshore. I'm sure someone else can chime in with more. I don't find Diamond Store's layout to be particularly interesting. The store itself is small, with not a lot of cover. All of the extra areas of the map (the back cafe, car shop, etc) aren't really used, and the front van locations are terrible. I don't consider shuffling a dozen+ bags through constant sniper fire to be all that fun.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:08
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UnknownMercenary posted:I still like Santa's Workshop. And all the Transports. But gently caress Lab Rats. Absolutely gently caress Lab Rats. It's a terrible heist and every time I play it I find more reasons to dislike it. Still not as bad as Car Shop.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:26
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Personally I think "more bags" is an objective that should be avoided in almost every situation. I know we've all made jokes about this game being Bag Tossing Simulator 2014 (and 2015, and 2016 ...) but it's fundamentally uninteresting to shuffle bags. Especially heavy bags. Overdrill, I think, demonstrates this the best because there's the obvious PDTH comparison: In PDTH you just grabbed gold and that was it, you're done, you held off the assault wave for 33 minutes (or 2 hours for the dedicated lunatics originally) and you got your shitload of money, now complete the heist. PD2 Overdrill is that, except with an extra half-hour of throwing gold bags down a vent. Does this add any fun or challenge? Not especially, no. In almost every case, the act of having to shuffle bags, especially shuffling large numbers of bags? That's added tedium, not added difficulty. Firestarter d2, as a counterexample, does this correctly: You're moving one, maybe two heavy bags. You have to move them across a fairly open area, which can be difficult - but you do it once. Not everyone on the team is required to haul a bag (especially in our new era of not-everyone-in-ICTV, this is even better than it used to be) and, if you don't feel confident, you can reasonably wait for an assault break, haul rear end across the street, and go. If you're skilled enough (or using frenzy) you just walk across in the middle of the assault wave and don't give a drat. This end to FS D2 isn't tedious, it's completing an objective - you do it and it's done, heist over, move on. It's not a coincidence this involves one or two bags, not thirty. Psion fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 17:29
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Tempest_56 posted:Still not as bad as Car Shop. car shop is a tech demo heist, has been made easier at least twice, and was never that difficult in the first place - just unrewarding in xp/cash. On the other hand, you get a Stig helmet out of it. What's your problem with it?
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Jul 25, 2016 17:35
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Alesso Heist is probably the limit of how much bag moving I want. It's got a lot of bag moving, sure, but it's in an enclosed space with lots of close combat which I like. You can also just let the cops take the bags and they'll move them up halfway (but dump them in front of a window with a sniper overlooking it).
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Jul 25, 2016 17:41
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UnknownMercenary posted:Alesso Heist is probably the limit of how much bag moving I want. It's got a lot of bag moving, sure, but it's in an enclosed space with lots of close combat which I like. You can also just let the cops take the bags and they'll move them up halfway (but dump them in front of a window with a sniper overlooking it). Never let cops touch bags.  But I agree with your points - it's probably at or above my preferred limit, but because it has a lot of good close combat, you're having fun doing something else while bag moving instead of just slogging bags. I also think it's important to recognize Alesso has several mechanical assists to bag moving, even if they're a little weird. we did the lobby zipline the other day just because who cares, right? For the one person up top collecting bags it was real intense, because the entire assault was there instead of anywhere close to the basement where the saws were running or the lobby where the bags were moving or ... man the spawns on that map are weird.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:46
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I don't mind moving bags when I have a full group of people to help out. It adds a gameplay element where you need to slowly move through a position that are otherwise a terrible idea to defend. When I don't have a full group of people, it's the loving worst.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:52
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Renegret posted:I don't mind moving bags when I have a full group of people to help out. It adds a gameplay element where you need to slowly move through a position that are otherwise a terrible idea to defend. i think there's enough heists where lots of bag-moving is a big consideration. it actually is kind of interesting in certain situations to make a loot line that you can reasonably expect to be under fire, and Alesso is the prime example of that. so i'd disagree that it's ALWAYS added tedium, but it's been done enough that i don't think we need more of it. if you're interested in bag shifting logistics your niche is covered.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:56
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Psion posted:car shop is a tech demo heist, has been made easier at least twice, and was never that difficult in the first place - just unrewarding in xp/cash. On the other hand, you get a Stig helmet out of it. What's your problem with it? It being a tech demo heist doesn't change the fact that it's still a heist and I've never seen why that somehow forgives the many egregious mistakes it makes. It's unrewarding, yes, but it also isn't interesting, suffers from a number of bugs (particularly pathing/LOS), relies heavily on the lovely driving mechanics and on higher difficulties is easy to fail even if you do everything correctly. It's telling that one of the historical advised strategies for DW is "ECM rush, host drives to escape, everyone else kills themselves with molotovs in a closet". It literally does nothing well and several things wrong. At least Four Stores has cops to click. I do like the Stig mask, though.
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Jul 25, 2016 17:58
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Renegret posted:I don't mind moving bags when I have a full group of people to help out. It adds a gameplay element where you need to slowly move through a position that are otherwise a terrible idea to defend. This is another good point. Stealth heists involving lots of bags are the worst poo poo because it's 5 minutes actually stealthing, 2 minutes waiting for that one guard to stop pathing in front of---OH GOD MOVE GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE DOOR YOU loving GUARD and 35 minutes of moving artifacts bags scaling to players in session would be nice, but really, a better option is not doubling down on bag-moving as difficulty. It's not, not unless you're bringing something interesting to the table.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:06
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I want a heist where the escape is you stealing artifacts by placing them inside of some stolen Falcoginis. Make it happen Overkill.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:11
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Coolguye posted:but it's been done enough that i don't think we need more of it. if you're interested in bag shifting logistics your niche is covered. yeah, basically this is true. The thing is, though, most of the heists involving bag-shifting are even less interesting now than they used to be. Player power and resource use is fuckin ridiculous these days - so even heists where bag tossing used to be fun and challenging and awesome (bus stop on Big Bank, anyone?) are now boring. In the main, Payday 2 is a lot more fun and accessible these days, so I'm all for accepting that and abandoning Bag Tossing Simulator going forward in our bright, new Payday future of fighting the elemental plane of cops as Crime Wizards.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:14
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I think you meant C4 Tunneling.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:26
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Psion posted:This is another good point. Stealth heists involving lots of bags are the worst poo poo because it's 5 minutes actually stealthing, 2 minutes waiting for that one guard to stop pathing in front of---OH GOD MOVE GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE DOOR YOU loving GUARD and 35 minutes of moving artifacts yeah Back in the day we used to worry a bunch about getting the engine out of the house on big oil day 2, because the area in front of the house is pretty dangerous, and the person carrying it would melt without good covering fire from the team. Lately it hasn't been a problem because of better player skill/balance patches/more toys but it's an example of how a big fatty bag can really add a lot to a heist.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:29
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Big Oil is a heist I wish Overkill had taken more lessons from, because it's wholly undervalued by a lot of people. It's good poo poo! good example, though. UnknownMercenary posted:I think you meant C4 Tunneling. c4 tunneling used to be dickpunching yourself but now it's also boring. Before you say it, default escape is arguably even more boring. I know  the fighting retreat to the conference room > through the bus > to the van was fun as hell back in the days of bulletproof ICTV techforcers and the CAR4/Loco "why does this game have any other weapon" era. and then a shield meleed you in the bus and you got glitched into geometry and your team had to hope you died and went into custody before they could escape 
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Jul 25, 2016 18:57
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i would like the default escape for big bank if Bile blew out the top skylight and lowered the cage into the lobby. it can get pretty hectic coming out of the time-lock door, but getting junk up that side ladder is horrifically tedious and it's only made a little better if your team stands someone on the rafters in the manager's office to catch and relay cash. being forced to fight into the middle of the world's largest furball in the world's largest bank would be pretty neato. however, i can understand why they didn't do that. cops carry bags to the street on that map, so it'd be strictly ideal to drop the bags in the counting room and let cops do most of the hauling for you.
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Jul 25, 2016 19:03
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A large part of the general changes I describe for DV loud are specifically meant to address the power creep problems that make bag movement boring. Once you exclude bag movement and waiting for things, the set of available design choices for maps becomes very limited. At root, payday is built around how much time it takes to do different things while you click cops- maps are literally designed around this.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 19:45
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Coolguye posted:i would like the default escape for big bank if Bile blew out the top skylight and lowered the cage into the lobby. it can get pretty hectic coming out of the time-lock door, but getting junk up that side ladder is horrifically tedious and it's only made a little better if your team stands someone on the rafters in the manager's office to catch and relay cash. This is actually a fun sounding idea.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:08
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Coolguye posted:i would like the default escape for big bank if Bile blew out the top skylight and lowered the cage into the lobby. it can get pretty hectic coming out of the time-lock door, but getting junk up that side ladder is horrifically tedious and it's only made a little better if your team stands someone on the rafters in the manager's office to catch and relay cash. zipline asset.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:26
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Discendo Vox posted:zipline asset. this is a good idea another zipline basically where the pig drops, setup happens on the roof
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Jul 25, 2016 20:27
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Today I finally tried ICTVFrenzerker with anarchist. This is the stupidest poo poo I have ever played, you can just walk outside in los of 3 snipers, a bunch of cops and whatever else and not give two shits as you mow everything down. Nerf this please overkill. I can feel the bad habit forming already.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:41
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SaffronKit posted:Today I finally tried ICTVFrenzerker with anarchist.
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Jul 25, 2016 20:56
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SaffronKit posted:Today I finally tried ICTVFrenzerker with anarchist. Now try it with LBV instead of ICTV. Save 8 points on Iron Man Aced, still have 270+ armor while running 40. DW-viable LBV at -5 dodge: Dodging is just flinching.
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Jul 25, 2016 21:44
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Coolguye posted:this is a good idea There is already a zipline asset. It is there explicitly to speed up the removal of bags at the default location.
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Jul 25, 2016 22:23
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Discendo Vox posted:There is already a zipline asset. It is there explicitly to speed up the removal of bags at the default location. well poo poo on me
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Jul 25, 2016 22:26
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The zipline to the roof is bad because using it leaves you open to sniper fire.
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Jul 25, 2016 23:10
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Discendo Vox posted:A large part of the general changes I describe for DV loud are specifically meant to address the power creep problems that make bag movement boring. Once you exclude bag movement and waiting for things, the set of available design choices for maps becomes very limited. At root, payday is built around how much time it takes to do different things while you click cops- maps are literally designed around this. Obviously what we need is more puzzles.
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Jul 25, 2016 23:12
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To access the Payday 2 secret vault you must solve a tower of Hanoi puzzle.
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Jul 25, 2016 23:14
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UnknownMercenary posted:To access the Payday 2 secret vault you must solve a tower of Hanoi puzzle. excuse me this isn't a Bioware product Coolguye posted:well poo poo on me I don't blame you for not knowing about it, because who deliberately picks default escape and a zipline instead of any of the other escape options which are all manifestly superior in a heist where you don't ever need the favors for anything else? e: i mean except merc hating himself and I've done it SO I MEAN aside from me and merc, who deliberately picks default escape and a zipline? Nobody! Psion fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Jul 25, 2016 23:19
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You have come to a room with four vault doors. Opening the doors must be done in a specific order based on riddles found on the bodies of the managerial staff in the bank. Failure to open the correct order locks the unopened vaults for the remainder of the heist and will auto spawn a Special squad for each locked door. Bain will read the riddles like he reads meth descriptions. This is a terrible idea and I kinda want to play it.
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Jul 25, 2016 23:40
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UnknownMercenary posted:To access the Payday 2 secret vault you must solve the original 64 golden disk tower of Hanoi puzzle.
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Jul 26, 2016 00:15
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Psion posted:excuse me this isn't a Bioware product The new heist involves downloading Bain into a lady cyborg's body and you must find a way to unite him with his true love, Dallas.
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Jul 26, 2016 00:16
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UnknownMercenary posted:The new heist involves downloading Bain into a lady cyborg's body and you must find a way to unite him with his true love, Dallas. Saint's Row already did "Press F to Romance"
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Jul 26, 2016 00:17
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Dr Cheeto posted:Saint's Row already did "Press F to Romance" Honestly if Payday 2 just became more and more like Saints Row, I'd be fine with it Keith David heister when.
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Jul 26, 2016 00:30
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Bain: Insurance Fraud
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Jul 26, 2016 00:35
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Psion posted:Honestly if Payday 2 just became more and more like Saints Row, I'd be fine with it Keith David would be great and all, but do we need another Hoxton Revenge? And also, Johnny Gat heister when
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Jul 26, 2016 01:06
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BillmasterCozb posted:And also, Johnny Gat heister when I never realized just how much I want this. Someone get Daniel Dae Kim on the line ASAP. 
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Jul 26, 2016 01:18
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gat's default mask is just a gat bobblehead mask edit: bonus points if they would include a heist of the bank from the beginning of Saints Row 3, complete with defending the safe as it's being air lifted
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Jul 26, 2016 01:38
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It'd be hosed up if there were two east Asian heisters in Payday and neither one was Lo Wang
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Jul 26, 2016 01:58
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