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QuarkJets posted:The point is that there are civilian applications of military research, and we can realize peaceful benefits from non-peaceful research. Again you muddy the waters with your lack of clear definitions. Argument 1. Military research is morally wrong. I make distinctions from the the intent of the research. The subsequent application of the knowledge is not relevant for my initial claim that military research is inherently violent. That the knowledge gained from military research has civilian applications is irrelevant. Knowledge will find it's applications regardless of the intent of the one making the initial discovery. I can use a spoon to slowly pluck your left eye out out of its socket while singing Taylor Swift songs but this doesn't make IKEA's development of silverware morally objectionable nor Taylor Swift an accomplice to the act. Argument 2. military research is an waste of tax money. Money spent of A cannot be spent B, thus forcing a choice between A and B should be obvious. It is thus not a false dichotomy. Both from an economic and from a ethical stand point a choice has to be made. If we wish to evaluate the relative merits of two options we need to examine the plausible consequences of choice A vs Choice B. In this case it's rather obvious that if we spend less money on developing guns and more money developing basically anything else the latter is not only the morally stronger choice but also the one that will lead to a better and more developed society. From a civil perspective military research is this a waste of tax payer money compared to civil research. So peaceful development is the better choice from both a virtue perspective as well as an utilitarian perspective. Then we have your argument that any comparison is meaningless since we live in a world were only the military can get those precious tax dollars. That might be true in a dystopic police-state ruled by a military industrial complex where any semblance of democracy is a charade and the choices boil down to the choice between a money laundering war hawk and a fascist, but it has no bearing for us living in the real world were the state works to improve the lives of the citizenry. Argument 3. Military research slows down the rate of technological innovation in a society. Military research is by it's very nature secretive. The gains from it are limited to a very small sample of scientists who are developing a very narrow set of applications from their technology. The secretive nature of the research often in practice mean that entire subjects of science remain hidden at best and expressively forbidden at worst. This secrecy is in opposition to the open debate and collaborative nature proposed by the scientific methodology. Conclusion. So military research is not only the morally weaker choice, it is also research focused upon goals not beneficial to the citizenry and it slows down the spread of knowledge thus slowing down the rate of technological improvement due to it's secretive nature and opposition to open and collaborative science. Military research is thus of questionable merit when compared to the alternative of government funded civil research. it is morally corrupt. It's a waste of tax payers money. It slows down the rate of technological development It is politically dangerous and might lead to a highly militarized state. It contributes to the overall glorification of violence and help warmongers argue for the benefits of war.
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Jul 26, 2016 10:30
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Quift posted:Then we have your argument that any comparison is meaningless since we live in a world were only the military can get those precious tax dollars. That might be true in a dystopic police-state ruled by a military industrial complex where any semblance of democracy is a charade and the choices boil down to the choice between a money laundering war hawk and a fascist, but it has no bearing for us living in the real world were the state works to improve the lives of the citizenry. Oh, so that's your gimmick. Yawn. I was actually interested in debating the real merits of using morally questionable research for morally unquestionable ends, but if you're not arguing in good faith then there's not much point
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Jul 26, 2016 10:41
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QuarkJets posted:Oh, so that's your gimmick. Yawn. I was actually interested in debating the real merits of using morally questionable research for morally unquestionable ends, but if you're not arguing in good faith then there's not much point I am arguing in good faith. You are the one who claimed that money coudn't be moved from the military industrial complex into civil research for political reasons.
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Jul 26, 2016 11:04
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504 posted:Those dumb fuckers that believe the whole "Buy gold, paper money is gonna fail!!!" line almost cause me to stroke out. Don't ANY of them notice the helpful advice filled website is willing to take their useless paper and give them valuable valuable gold? Er, the websites/phone lines don't actually send them gold, they send them paper certificates that are in theory redeemable for the gold (or silver or whatever). You just need to drive out to some warehouse in Nebraska or something to pick it up, it's so easy!  The only ones that actually send you gold or other precious metals are the sites where they're sending you coins, heavily marked up over the value of the precious metal within, naturally. Don't worry though, they'll totally be worth what you paid when the apocalypse happens and you have 4 gold coins to last the rest of your life! All research done for the military and under its funding/watch is military research, and you need to deal with that fact. Quift posted:It slows down the rate of technological development Now that's some insanity right there!
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Jul 26, 2016 14:13
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fishmech posted:
I made an argument. Can you make an actual counter-argument like an adult or are you limited to just spouting random insults like a 5 year old playground bully?
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Jul 26, 2016 15:07
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Quift posted:I made an argument. Can you make an actual counter-argument like an adult or are you limited to just spouting random insults like a 5 year old playground bully? We already demolished your argument pages ago. Your own posting is an insult to everyone's intelligence, because you simply refuse to use real definitions of terms.
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Jul 26, 2016 15:26
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Quift posted:On the contrary there is plenty of UFO stuff. if you wish to delve deeper into the the subjct you can google some of these keywords What's fascinating is that the culture kept evolving. Now it's nowhere near the recovered memory rape kidnapping stuff of 1970-2000 and would be unrecognizable to Geraldo or Budd Hopkins. Even X-files outlived the actual culture and had to retrofit some Mayan 2012 stuff near the end. The recovered memory craze and related satanic panic really propelled ufo abduction into pop-culture respectability, but without those other elements it went right back to crazytown. I bet there aren't even classic abduction accounts being made any more--that it's just the same crowd as MKULTRA schizophrenics.
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Jul 26, 2016 15:48
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Jack Gladney posted:What's fascinating is that the culture kept evolving. Now it's nowhere near the recovered memory rape kidnapping stuff of 1970-2000 and would be unrecognizable to Geraldo or Budd Hopkins. Even X-files outlived the actual culture and had to retrofit some Mayan 2012 stuff near the end. It's kind of hard to claim close up alien encounters any more seeing as everyone has a camera/video recorder in their pocket.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:22
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muscles like this? posted:It's kind of hard to claim close up alien encounters any more seeing as everyone has a camera/video recorder in their pocket. I think this is why the new hotness is gangstalking/Targeted Individuals; when you think every traffic jam or line at the bank or weird noise at night is evidence of a conspiracy to personally harass you, it's easy to whip out your phone and comprehensively document every single event that happens so you can compile them online
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Jul 26, 2016 17:17
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Quift posted:I made an argument. Can you make an actual counter-argument like an adult or are you limited to just spouting random insults like a 5 year old playground bully? This is actually just untrue, though. Cold War Era Research was primarily fueled by the looming presence of conflagration. Computation, Physics, and Biology all saw major advancements during this period - and others - due to military research; most of these advancements were adapted to non-military uses. Also, could you quantify how much technological advancement is slowed down? Seems like your definition is arbitrary and you're setting yourself up for a debate you can't lose by introducing specific thresholds after arguments have been made. Quift posted:Argument 3. Military research slows down the rate of technological innovation in a society. tech firms are secretive too, friend. If google were to leak a new system or method for computation, its competitors would attempt to finish it first. Since 99% of tech firms, whether public or private industry, are in competition with something, this 'secretive' argument has no roots in reality. Because of this, openness and collaboration aren't unique to peaceful research. unpleasantly turgid fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jul 26, 2016 |
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Jul 26, 2016 17:27
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The Chairman posted:I think this is why the new hotness is gangstalking/Targeted Individuals; when you think every traffic jam or line at the bank or weird noise at night is evidence of a conspiracy to personally harass you, it's easy to whip out your phone and comprehensively document every single event that happens so you can compile them online Probably the weirdest part about gangstalking is how there's never any reason behind it. Most conspiracy theories have some kind of goal but gangstalking is always just harassment for no reason.
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Jul 26, 2016 17:47
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muscles like this? posted:Probably the weirdest part about gangstalking is how there's never any reason behind it. Most conspiracy theories have some kind of goal but gangstalking is always just harassment for no reason. Hey now, some gangstalking "victims" know it's because they were getting too close to THE TRUTH and THEY didn't want them to realize it.
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Jul 26, 2016 17:52
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muscles like this? posted:Probably the weirdest part about gangstalking is how there's never any reason behind it. Most conspiracy theories have some kind of goal but gangstalking is always just harassment for no reason. There's a great f plus bit where they wonder if the children of Targeted Individuals ever blame poo poo on gangstalkers to get away with it "I didn't spill that mom, must have been the CIA plant that's following you. I did my homework, the gangstalkers took it out of my bag!" Etc
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Jul 26, 2016 17:52
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muscles like this? posted:Probably the weirdest part about gangstalking is how there's never any reason behind it. Most conspiracy theories have some kind of goal but gangstalking is always just harassment for no reason. It's like flat earthers -- who can care about the causes or reasons when we're so obviously getting harassed/being bombarded by roundist propaganda right now?
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Jul 26, 2016 18:22
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Quift posted:I am arguing in good faith. You are the one who claimed that money coudn't be moved from the military industrial complex into civil research for political reasons. Come on, the portion that I quoted made your gimmick too obvious. You're deliberately playing as an overly-naive person. The post that I'm quoting here just compounds the matter. Hey Quift I've got a bridge to sell you, only :tenbux:! Think of all the toll money you could rake in!
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Jul 26, 2016 19:41
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Animal-Mother posted:I never bought into alien abductions myself, mostly since I don't see why a spacecraft with Star Trek level technology would need to physically examine a specimen onboard, but the allegedly true story behind Fire In The Sky is.... intriguing. What was the "true story"? Id heard they admitted it was all made up.
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Jul 26, 2016 19:45
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fishmech posted:Er, the websites/phone lines don't actually send them gold, they send them paper certificates that are in theory redeemable for the gold (or silver or whatever). You just need to drive out to some warehouse in Nebraska or something to pick it up, it's so easy! Haha, that's even better!! "Sure we will give you useful gold for useless money, but we wont actually send you the gold, just nip out and pick it up when the world falls apart..k?" Amazing!
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Jul 26, 2016 19:48
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Quift posted:On the contrary there is plenty of UFO stuff. if you wish to delve deeper into the the subjct you can google some of these keywords We are not talking about some mental case writing a website, we are talking about somebody stumbling into town claiming he just got his rear end reamed by the greys. That flat out does not happen now.
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Jul 26, 2016 19:50
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FoxStrats posted:This is actually just untrue, though. Cold War Era Research was primarily fueled by the looming presence of conflagration. Computation, Physics, and Biology all saw major advancements during this period - and others - due to military research; most of these advancements were adapted to non-military uses. I was discussing the relative merits of government funded research. Option A. Spend 1 billion taxdollars on a new secret super weapon Option B. Spend 1 billion taxdollar on civil engineering projects. My arguments are obviously not valid when Option B is distorted to become "No tax dollars spent on research". Inefficient RND expenditure is better than no RND expenditure but that much is obvious. I am claiming that military research is wasteful, ineffiecient and immoral compared to the alternative of non-military state sponsored research of equal cost (universities, Space progams, large construction programs, the human genome project etc). How this position can be called unreasonable and insane is quite beyond me.
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Jul 26, 2016 19:54
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Quift posted:How this position can be called unreasonable and insane is quite beyond me. because voters are more willing to support 'defense' research than pure science research the space race was largely a public spin on government development of ICBMs, for example. america wasn't freaked out by sputnik because of the prestige of getting lapped in space, but because the soviets had demonstrated they could put an object the size and shape of a nuclear weapon in orbit
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Jul 26, 2016 19:56
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504 posted:We are not talking about some mental case writing a website, we are talking about somebody stumbling into town claiming he just got his rear end reamed by the greys. That flat out does not happen now. This happens plenty. http://disclosureproject.org/ http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/
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Jul 26, 2016 19:57
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Quift posted:This happens plenty. thanks for linking some mental case's website to support 504's claim
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Jul 26, 2016 20:02
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Quift posted:This happens plenty. No, it really doesn't. I like that in response to "Not some mental case writing a website" you link a website. EDIT: Beaten by a drink.
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Jul 26, 2016 20:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:because voters are more willing to support 'defense' research than pure science research No but because of, um, PR surrounding totally peaceful rocket development it totally wasn't military research! That's why the international community applauds Nork Korea launching peaceful scientific satellite missions on Nodongs and expresses its appreciation for the furtherance of Dear Leader's peaceful space research!
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Jul 26, 2016 20:07
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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and we remember the moon landing as pure science today because the government totally tried to militarize space in the 1960s but slowly realized it was a stupid and stupendously expensive idea the original moon bases would have absolutely been military bases if it made any kind of fiscal sense to station nuclear missiles on the moon. since it didn't the us/soviets agreed for a nice pr friendly gentlemen's agreement that was basically the same as "we both agree to not build gigantic robot walkers with death rays"
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Jul 26, 2016 20:13
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When will this thread return to making fun of moon landing truthers?
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Jul 26, 2016 20:39
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Tater Love 
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As soon as you are willing to admit the truth of the moon not existing.
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Jul 26, 2016 20:45
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zakharov posted:When will this thread return to making fun of moon landing truthers? Well you see there's actually a lot of merit behind moon landing truthers. I don't personally believe the moon landing was faked, but we can learn a lot about the world via moon landing truthers and their methods can't simply be dismissed because they aren't "scientific" or "factual".
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Jul 26, 2016 20:46
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504 posted:No, it really doesn't. What option did I have other than linking to a webiste written by a loon? If you watch their "documentary" you would get what I mean. These guys hang around in the desert, drink ayawhasca and claim to to beamed up into speceships on a regular basis. To claim it doesn't count unless there is some rectal probing involved is quite anal. Baronjutter posted:Well you see there's actually a lot of merit behind moon landing truthers. I don't personally believe the moon landing was faked, but we can learn a lot about the world via moon landing truthers and their methods can't simply be dismissed because they aren't "scientific" or "factual". Their analysis of Kubrick movies are much more fun to watch. Trust me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hRgQ-Qk7u8 This one is only 6 minutes. There are some that clock in over an hour.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:12
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This should be fun for future conspiracy and alien stuff: Asteroid collisions create 'forbidden' five fold symmetrical crystals http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2016/07/26/asteroid_collisions_create_a_forbidden_quasicrystal.html
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Jul 26, 2016 21:22
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Quift posted:What option did I have other than linking to a webiste written by a loon? If you watch their "documentary" you would get what I mean. These guys hang around in the desert, drink ayawhasca and claim to to beamed up into speceships on a regular basis. To claim it doesn't count unless there is some rectal probing involved is quite anal. Exactly. "What option did I have because no one claims it on TV or by yelling it in town anymore" That's my point. (Pay attention here) It is only the blatantly mentally sick still claiming this, the attention seekers, the fame chasers and the liars have all given it up.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:58
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NLJP posted:This should be fun for future conspiracy and alien stuff: Asteroid collisions create 'forbidden' five fold symmetrical crystals For extra fun, here's the diffraction pattern:  
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Jul 26, 2016 23:44
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504 posted:What was the "true story"? I don't believe there has been an outright admission of a hoax. Travis Walton maintains his original story to this day. It's how he makes his living. The other culprit, Mike Rogers probably does as well but I don't know.
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Jul 26, 2016 23:51
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504 posted:What was the "true story"? They got drunk and hosed each other? The story they came back with was not standard gray rape. It was like space Norwegians in flowy colorful gowns telling them about the beauty of the cosmos.
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Jul 26, 2016 23:51
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Quift posted:I was discussing the relative merits of government funded research. That position is pure fantasy. You might as well say that Option B is "spend 1 billion taxdollars to teach everyone how to teleport" QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 01:01
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muscles like this? posted:It's kind of hard to claim close up alien encounters any more seeing as everyone has a camera/video recorder in their pocket. I do love that all UFO or other weird videos tend to be people recording random poo poo then suddenly a UFO! A Ghost! Superman! Or shits blurry and can't make out details. The Chairman posted:I think this is why the new hotness is gangstalking/Targeted Individuals; when you think every traffic jam or line at the bank or weird noise at night is evidence of a conspiracy to personally harass you, it's easy to whip out your phone and comprehensively document every single event that happens so you can compile them online A friend posted a article about dealing with people who thought they were being gangstalked and some people started bringing up the way Scientology attacks critics, or someone like Karen Silkwood. I tried to clear up that gangstalking is not the same as targeted harassment because those people were on a shitlist because they were critics or going to expose wrongdoing or something else that a powerful organization wanted to stop. Gangstalking is normal, average people who are paranoid because they're out of coke at the store and so they have ot buy pepsi, and they see a guy with a blue shirt and thinks Biug Pepsi is rigging their life so they buy more Pepsi. But those guys were "I don't know, I could see these techniques being used against regular people" and I would ask "why?" and then they go back aground to the aforementioned targets. When bringing up magical technology they would say "I read on *some poo poo like Infowars* that the government can change the weather, so its possible they have camers that can see though walls". To my friends credit he saw this and was "What the gently caress guys? When did you guys get tinfoil hats?"
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Jul 27, 2016 04:41
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504 posted:Exactly. Oh. Sorry, Misread you. Al tough I have never seen an Alien Abductee on television but that might be because we dont' have the Jerry Springer Show et al over here. I would still like to discuss the Sirius Disclosure Project though. They are one of the most discussed groups in UFO-logy circles and they have published a trove of official documents from around the world on the subject. If anyone is interested. Back to the topic of Conspiracy Aliens. One thing that I find interesting in the Alien Conspiracy debate is that most conspiracy theorists claim the opposite of a Government Cover up. They claim that all Aliens are fake/PsyOp and that the Government has tried to prepare the populace for a fake alien invasion in order to install the NWO. (Project Bluebeam). The narrative goes: Media such as movies and TV-shows have been schock full of Aliens to "program" us in to thinking Aliens might be real. NASA is simultaneously making the belief that ET are real a "scientific"claim. The "History" Channel is pushing the Ancient Aliens theory to further increase the credibility of Aliens on earth. MK ultra subjects are given false memories of Alien Abductions and then released to act as witnesses. When the "Aliens" arrive these "witnesses" will turn out to not have been crazy the whole time thus creating further historical "evidence" for the now manifested "Aliens". So instead of going "The Military Industrial Complex are hiding Aliens in Area 51" We have "The Military Industrial Complex plans to fake an Alien Landing to instigate a Military Dictatorship while pretending to protect us from a non-existing threat". So many Conspiracy theorists thinks that the "Disclosure Project" is part of this plan and that the leading figures within it such as Dr Greer are either brainwashed MK Ultra pawns or take a willing and active part in pushing this agenda. The old Conspiracy theory is seen as planted by the very forces that it claimed to oppose. Quift fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jul 27, 2016 |
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Jul 27, 2016 09:51
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QuarkJets posted:That position is pure fantasy. You might as well say that Option B is "spend 1 billion taxdollars to teach everyone how to teleport" Most governments in the world spend their money sensibly. Since most countries do not have a large arms industry they don't spend anything on military research. Instead they soend their RDN money on their universities or stuff like CERN, civil space programs etc. See, I live in the actual world. You seem to live in a world where Donald Trump and his rambling hate-speech could be seen as a rational choice. I'm starting to get the impression that being a ignorant, stupid narcissist with neither the talent for, nor the inclination towards coherent thought might not be just a "schtick" for you; it may be a reflection of who you truly are. if that is the case I feel very strongly that we should celebrate your strong sense of self. I was taught of the importance of not degrading the mentally retarded but instead work to make them feel good about themselves in an world that is often intellectually overwhelming. I would thus like to give you a pat on the back and a participation trophy! This trophy is hereby given to you as a proof that you can (almost) participate in a discussion with adults. No need to thank me. 
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Jul 27, 2016 10:12
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Quift posted:Most governments in the world spend their money sensibly. Since most countries do not have a large arms industry they don't spend anything on military research. You know literally nothing about anything quote:Instead they soend their RDN money on their universities or stuff like CERN, civil space programs etc. See, I live in the actual world. You seem to live in a world where Donald Trump and his rambling hate-speech could be seen as a rational choice. The United States is a major contributor of personnel and resources to CERN; over one quarter of the scientists that have worked with the LHC were funded with US research dollars. The US presence at CERN is considerable. Trust me on this; I used to work there. The United States also has a similarly-sized particle physics facility called Fermilab, plus the we've built many other accelerators over the years. We could and should do more, of course, but pretending that the US doesn't spend any money on research is both wrong and unhelpful. NASA is the US's civil space program and has been in operation since the 50s. They also serve as a funding source for industry-level space research. Literally everything in your post is wrong. It's a dumb gimmick and you should just stop. quote:I'm starting to get the impression that being a ignorant, stupid narcissist with neither the talent for, nor the inclination towards coherent thought might not be just a "schtick" for you; it may be a reflection of who you truly are. if that is the case I feel very strongly that we should celebrate your strong sense of self. I was taught of the importance of not degrading the mentally retarded but instead work to make them feel good about themselves in an world that is often intellectually overwhelming. lol you are trying way too hard at this
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Jul 27, 2016 11:11
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QuarkJets posted:You know literally nothing about anything You are the one that claimed that it would be impossible for a government to invest it's RND into civilian projects. I think the word used was "Fantasy Land"? This is the lack of coherence that earns you your trophy.
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Jul 27, 2016 12:30
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