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Meat Recital posted:Not true. Anivia had 280 in Season 0 before power creep boosted everyone up to like 340 base. Beta was six or seven years ago so I apologize my memory wasn't up to snuff, Guy that Arfjason Quoted a Lot. Point was most champions since the first season have been 300 or so movespeed, and it was considered a bad idea in Nautilus times to make a sub 300ms champ. I mean this guy is probably overloaded to the brim with poo poo to compensate but it means without his mount and given he has no escapes that I can tell at least that don't involve his yoshi he's gonna die very badly trying to run away from a gank
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Jul 26, 2016 04:53
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He's really NOT basically Gnar, at all, in any way. His movespeed is poo poo in tinymode but he can run AT enemies still, and his gun's backdash-distance is significant if he needs to buy some space. He kinda reminds me of an AD fizz/fiora style diver since he has the forward dashes, with a delayed hook on his trap to pull enemies back in. Seriously, Mega-gnar has a bunch of on-demand CC and a fat stack of health. Mounted Kled has two dashes and a delayed hook. They both have an attack speed steroid attached to a passive skill I guess?! His ult is really powerful and possibly one answer to the Sivir Meta. The path it leaves is as wide as a lane and you run Sivir ult speeds if you follow it as an Ally, and it lasts for a LONG time. It's only in the forward direction, though. I dunno, he feels like a pretty standard/solid toplaner to me. Moderately tanky, some CC, easy to gank for, Sion-level movement ult for ganking midlane and taking the whole team with you. I think it works rather well, having played with it and seen others play it on PBE. Maybe it just looks generic on paper or maybe SA just hates %health damage so much they can't help chortling about lovely champions every time they see it on a kit. Really I just want to see someone CHAAARGE into the Baron pit with their whole team when everyone thought they were too far to contest. It'll be sweet.
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Jul 26, 2016 05:17
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Servaetes posted:Guy that Arfjason Quoted a Lot. You know I thought that was arf this entire time and was wondering when he started playing league
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Jul 26, 2016 05:33
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https://www.twitch.tv/mynameiskog doin my placements for this season dunno where I'll end up
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Jul 26, 2016 05:58
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Im not watching but I believe in you Kog
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Jul 26, 2016 06:42
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Luna Was Here posted:Im not watching but I believe in you Kog I am watching and I don't believe
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Jul 26, 2016 07:21
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KirbyKhan posted:I am watching and I don't believe What, don't you have any hopes and dreams?
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Jul 26, 2016 07:26
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gnar's transformation and kled's mount has nothing in common at all.
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Jul 26, 2016 07:49
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I bought a bunch of keys to open all my boxes and I got Project Lucian and Project Fiora, the crate system is actually pretty cool. Except for the gemstones which pop up once every 40+ crates and the only people who have those two skins are people who spent like $400 on crates. I think I've gotten more of the Legendary/Ultimate + retired/limited skins in these crates than normal skins
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Jul 26, 2016 12:40
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Neurolimal posted:Like Taliyah it looks like the designer came up with one cool idea (a character INVOLVING MOUNTS?!?) and just wrote some question marks in the other skill slots. I don't agree with this at all. Taliyah has a very cohesive kit as a zoning aoe focused mage with high mobility. She is built around constant movement with her Q/passive/reworked earth and her W has pretty nice risk reward as you can either use it to safely peel or get close enough to try to use the full combo. The E-W combo has a nice amount of risk/reward to it. She's fluid, kite-y and just a lot of fun to play. She needed some fixes to get in a good place, sure, but she's fine now. Imo, she's one of best midlaners they've ever made.
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Jul 26, 2016 12:42
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She feels fun because she's ziggs with shorter cast times and more movespeed. That doesn't negate that she's fun, but it's still a very uninspired kit.
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Jul 26, 2016 14:29
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her visual design has all the excitement of a loaf of bread. bring back my boy iron stylus
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Jul 26, 2016 14:44
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Neurolimal posted:She feels fun because she's ziggs with shorter cast times and more movespeed. That doesn't negate that she's fun, but it's still a very uninspired kit. no, she's not. her similarities to ziggs begin and end with laying down an AoE of something (but they both do very different things!) and an AoE knockup of some kind, except the AoE knockups function completely differently (you can vector cast her W now while moving and with no delay to choose where the enemy will end up, away from or towards you, depending on the situation) Ziggs is an all-out burst and siege mage. You toss your poo poo at the squishies trying to two shot them with a Q and R, and try to poke down the enemy. W and E are mostly used as a disengage tool or to block off an area you don't want the enemy going ahead of time. Taliyah's effective range is much shorter but she has a more disruptive playstyle. She can drop a giant wall of terrain to box out an enemy or join a fight asap and use her W to catch someone out or protect an ally, and her E has very strong anti-mobility properties by hurting champions with dashes. Lovechop posted:her visual design has all the excitement of a loaf of bread. bring back my boy iron stylus I think her default skin is merely ok but the Freljord skin has a really cool outfit. I like her visually quite a lot. How Rude fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Jul 26, 2016 |
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Jul 26, 2016 15:05
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"Her QWE kit is Ziggs" isn't really countered with "but look at what she can do with her R" In terms of niche they vary slightly, but the formula remains the same; both create damaging terrain that effectively becomes impassable due to the damage, both poke from a distance with fast casting Q's (and autoattacks in Zigg's case), both have the ability to disengage or engage enemies with a long cooldown initiation ability (Ziggs' also disengages him to make up for his other cast times and low mobility), and both have an ult with the effective purpose of zoning the enemies' available disengage routes. Yeah, Taliyah has shorter ranges and more mobility, but I consider those minor changes to the design. Her biggest difference in typical play (running up to an enemy and throwing them across 1000 damage mines) developed entirely from overtuned abilities which were promptly toned down. And like I said, this doesn't make her unfun and being derivative of a successful AP carry means that there's no worries about her kit being fundamentally broken (I still think Worked Ground is Shen Sword levels of stupid though). She's not going to end up like Illaoi or Yorick or Old Fiona where the design is so broken that they get hard nerfs because their only niches are "better than everyone" or "entirely worthless".
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Jul 26, 2016 15:17
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... You really don't see how crazy reductive that is? "They both have a Q" is effectively what you said. Their Qs function entirely differently and have entirely different niches. Their movesets are extremely different aside from superficial similarities. They have different play patterns, different gameplay styles and the fact that their Rs and passives are so different has a huge impact on what they're good at. (Ziggs is extremely strong at sieging in a way Taliah can't possibly be due to his passive, his range, the fact he doesn't suffer from Worked Ground, the differences in his Q, and his new tower-destroying W passive.)
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Jul 26, 2016 15:40
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Like I said, they certainly have different niches as a result of tuning, but they are still mechanically the same. It's like saying Old Fiona wasn't a carbon copy of Yi because she had Juggernaut's ultimate. They found different niches (that old fiona was bad at), but she was still very derivative. Their Q's are the biggest difference between the base kits, but even then it's a standard skillshot poke that you need to orient around creeps to use (in Taliyah's case it's because it gets blocked, in Zigg's case its because the lane gets pushed too fast) that sets up the meat of the kit. One has range and bouncing to poke safely, the other is castable while moving and gives movespeed to poke safely. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jul 26, 2016 |
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Jul 26, 2016 15:44
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Since Illaoi was mentionned, does anyone have any words of wisdom on playing Kayle top vs Illaoi? Had this matchup the other day and got completely bodied.
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Jul 26, 2016 15:50
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Yeah and when you think about it all ADCs are really just the same
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Jul 26, 2016 15:51
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Kashuno posted:Yeah and when you think about it all ADCs are really just the same ...Why do you think they extensively reworked most of them?
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Jul 26, 2016 15:57
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Aumanor posted:Since Illaoi was mentionned, does anyone have any words of wisdom on playing Kayle top vs Illaoi? Had this matchup the other day and got completely bodied. Play defensive. Illaoi's single strength is being really good at punishing ganks and aggressive play early on. Heal after she goes in for a dash hit to dodge slams, wack her a few times to wven the trade, return to farming.
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Jul 26, 2016 15:59
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Neurolimal posted:Like I said, they certainly have different niches as a result of tuning, but they are still mechanically the same. It's like saying Old Fiona wasn't a carbon copy of Yi because she had Juggernaut's ultimate. They found different niches (that old fiona was bad at), but she was still very derivative. Again, you are being insanely reductive considering "skillshot poke that you need to move around to use" is like saying that a sandwich is "a food that you put in your mouth and chew." It's accurate but meaningless. Within the confines of a game there is going to be a limit on how different kits can be but Taliah and Ziggs are similar only in that they're mages who can create a damage field. Like even your "they're only different..." argument falls apart when you start listing off multiple major differences in them that completely change their uses and play patterns. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jul 26, 2016 |
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Jul 26, 2016 16:02
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the ziggs/taliyah comparison is not the one i would choose when arguing that some designs are too similar *gazes longingly at the top lane*
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Jul 26, 2016 16:06
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Gnar and Kled are painfully similar tho
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Jul 26, 2016 16:08
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mistaya posted:He's really NOT basically Gnar, at all, in any way. A yordle that attacks to fill a bar to transform into a tankier version with more and slightly better skills with CC is -sorta- similar.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:17
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I don't think they are. Gnar is very intentionally defensive when he's small, at least design wise he should constantly be kiting around and moving away from enemies, and then a crushing melee force when transformed. His jump is basically designed around making this play-style work because without it he doesn't smoothly transition from ranged kite adc to melee tank crowd controller at all. Kled is all aggression all the time, there is no point where Kled does not want to be aggressive, because even when he's small he's rewarded for going in in a way Gnar is not. Gnar wants to hold back until his rage is up, Kled wants to keep fighting to get his mount back at which point he still wants to keep fighting because that's a huge heal and he now has access to his full kit again, instead of one skill designed to help him get his stupid cowardly lizard back and a passive that rewards insane aggression anyway. They'll even build and feel different to play, Gnar is tank/adc hybrid to an extent. Kled is a scrapper like Fiora, good at getting in and staying in but relatively bad at getting out. Even the increase in health is different, Gnar is meant to have the same percentage of health, and gets increased armor/mr. Kled just gets a huge heal when he gets his mount back. Kled is also melee at all times, his pistol is his only safety measure when small and it's most useful right in the enemies face because that increases the amount of courage it gives. They actually thematically match their home locations quite nicely, Gnar is bursts of movement and slows, he grinds you down with the force of the frozen north. Kled is a blood-thirsty maniac who is first in a fight and last out, which describes almost all the Noxian champions pretty well, they want to get stuck in and stay stuck in, even Draven is rewarded to an extent for sticking with a fight thanks to how his spinning axe mechanics work. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jul 26, 2016 |
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Jul 26, 2016 16:23
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i think gnar is one of riot's best designs, hopefully kled can at least work well even if his kit is kinda uninteresting to me
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Jul 26, 2016 16:29
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ImpAtom posted:Again, you are being insanely reductive considering "skillshot poke that you need to move around to use" is like saying that a sandwich is "a food that you put in your mouth and chew." It's accurate but meaningless. Within the confines of a game there is going to be a limit on how different kits can be but Taliah and Ziggs are similar only in that they're mages who can create a damage field. Your sandwich analogy supports my point; a spammable skillshot poke Q is incredibly generic for midlaners. What differentiates them is the additional effects, but Taliyah's additional effects are at best a replacement for lack of range, and at worst actively harmful and yet more generic. Ziggs' Q is thrown safely from range, Taliyah's Q gives her movespeed to run back out of range safely. They both achieve the simple goal of providing a safe ranged harass that can be used while kiting.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:33
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Neurolimal posted:Play defensive. Illaoi's single strength is being really good at punishing ganks and aggressive play early on. Heal after she goes in for a dash hit to dodge slams, wack her a few times to wven the trade, return to farming. What to do if she connects the Test of Spirit on me?
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Jul 26, 2016 16:44
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Did I read incorrectly or does Kled also get his mount back by returning to base?
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Jul 26, 2016 16:46
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Aumanor posted:What to do if she connects the Test of Spirit on me? Just leave spirit range and kill the two tentacles that spawn during the duration. IIRC the duration is tied to rank, and I'm not sure if Illaoi players primarily level it.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:46
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Neurolimal posted:Just leave spirit range and kill the two tentacles that spawn during the duration. IIRC the duration is tied to rank, and I'm not sure if Illaoi players primarily level it. Will it save me from more damage than hitting her to shorten the duration would? Cause I always seemed to take a good deal of damage while retreating.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:48
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Aumanor posted:Will it save me from more damage than hitting her to shorten the duration would? Cause I always seemed to take a good deal of damage while retreating. It takes quite a bit of beating to get the spirit duration to shorten, and she can get some pretty obscene heals off during it. I'd say it depends on how confident you are with dodging that particular Illaoi.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:50
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Neurolimal posted:Your sandwich analogy supports my point; a spammable skillshot poke Q is incredibly generic for midlaners. What differentiates them is the additional effects, but Taliyah's additional effects are at best a replacement for lack of range, and at worst actively harmful and yet more generic. Ziggs' Q is thrown safely from range, Taliyah's Q gives her movespeed to run back out of range safely. They both achieve the simple goal of providing a safe ranged harass that can be used while kiting. No it doesn't. You're making insanely oversimplified to make your point. You're saying "they both have ranged Qs" which, yes, is a thing that is going to happen considering the game is designed to favor putting ranged harass on Q just from a player-comfort standpoint. It doesn't always happen but still. "These skills are very similar except in all the ways they're different" isn't a good argument.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:52
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Neurolimal posted:Your sandwich analogy supports my point; a spammable skillshot poke Q is incredibly generic for midlaners. What differentiates them is the additional effects, but Taliyah's additional effects are at best a replacement for lack of range, and at worst actively harmful and yet more generic. Ziggs' Q is thrown safely from range, Taliyah's Q gives her movespeed to run back out of range safely. They both achieve the simple goal of providing a safe ranged harass that can be used while kiting. Taliyah's Q is nothing like Ziggs' Q and you're drawing the dumbest comparison ever. Taliyah's Q: 1000 range can be used while moving, only fires in one direction while being cast four hits of AoE magic damage, reduced damage on each subsequent hit by 50% creates worked ground, which makes her shoot one shard for half the magic cost but gives %movespeed is blocked by minions Ziggs's Q: Minimum cast range of 850 Maximum cast range of 1400 has an explosion radius of 180 units, a detection radius of 150 units throws a single AoE damage object, essentially targets an area bounces and can be fired over minions does not continuously fire projectiles after cast time
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Jul 26, 2016 16:58
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The kit looks interesting, and I am a big fan of the noxian yordle thing. Hopefully it's good for the game, though, I can't afford to ban two hecarims right now.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:59
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Neurolimal posted:It takes quite a bit of beating to get the spirit duration to shorten, and she can get some pretty obscene heals off during it. I'd say it depends on how confident you are with dodging that particular Illaoi. If she has no tentacles near the vessel you can probably fight her. Takes some judgement.
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Jul 26, 2016 16:59
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tidiox posted:Did I read incorrectly or does Kled also get his mount back by returning to base?
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Jul 26, 2016 17:08
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Ummmm garen Q gives a silence while shyvana q is just extra damage, how could you possibly say they're similar
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Jul 26, 2016 17:10
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tidiox posted:Did I read incorrectly or does Kled also get his mount back by returning to base? yes, basically Kled and his mount has a combined one health bar and his mount flees if it's too low. since you slowly regain all your health when you back, you need to get back your mount too.
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Jul 26, 2016 17:10
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Work Friend Keven posted:Ummmm garen Q gives a silence while shyvana q is just extra damage, how could you possibly say they're similar ... Well, in that case other than melee attacks they actually are fairly different. Garen's Q empowers his next attack and in doing so clenses him of slows and gives him a speed boost in addition to silencing. It has a hard 8-second cooldown and is designed largely for chasing. Shyvana's Q is a double-attack. They serve pretty different purposes in their combat kit and play pattern and other than 'hitting the enemy' they don't actually share much in common design-wise either.
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Jul 26, 2016 17:15
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