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I think bringing all the DLC features together will make this a much better game, but I also think people are really overselling how bad things have gotten with the latest DLCs. The state/territory system is actually great. Sailors are useless mostly, but you can ignore them. My eyes don't even register them in the UI at this point. Corruption might suck more for non-Europeans, but it's a matter of ducats. I'm ambivalent about estates, but they require almost zero attention, except when you conquer a bunch of new territory, and the merchant estate is a great trade centre bonus. I might be a fanatic with over 2000 hours in the game, though.
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Jul 26, 2016 17:03
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Kulkasha posted:Bismarck is spinning in his grave. The HRE had been official dissolved, and the map of central Europe fundamentally redrawn, almost a decade before Bismarck was born.
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Jul 26, 2016 17:37
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Transmetropolitan posted:
Why do you want a global map? I think it would be pretty awkward to use and offer hardly any benefit. In Hearts of Iron seeing the correct distances might be important, and the Arctic route is a big deal, but for EU I think a flat map is better. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 26, 2016 |
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Jul 26, 2016 18:42
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Tsyni posted:I think bringing all the DLC features together will make this a much better game, but I also think people are really overselling how bad things have gotten with the latest DLCs. The state/territory system is actually great. Sailors are useless mostly, but you can ignore them. My eyes don't even register them in the UI at this point. Corruption might suck more for non-Europeans, but it's a matter of ducats. I'm ambivalent about estates, but they require almost zero attention, except when you conquer a bunch of new territory, and the merchant estate is a great trade centre bonus. I don't think the latest DLC are bad... they just seem to have lost some focus or something? Or maybe they just aren't focusing on what I'd like, I dunno. For example, the government system seems so undercooked. It's pretty much "Spend 100 Admin, become Absolute Monarchy, get slightly better bonuses".  The EUIV period deserves so much better.
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Jul 26, 2016 19:16
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NihilCredo posted:Why do you want a global map? I think it would be pretty awkward to use and offer hardly any benefit.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:01
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Indeed, its not so important that it be a globe, just that it isn't the broken rear end non-projection we have now where the continents are misshapen and out of place.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:13
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I just wish they'd simplify the interface and make it so things are more obvious and less tedious. For instance, trade. Steer or collect? Privateer or protect? I wish the trade-offs were more obvious. Tooltips are often wrong for the trade protecting, which doesn't help. Buildings are messy too. Why doesn't the production menu list where a building would be most beneficial? You literally need to go province by province on the map to see where's the biggest number. Diplomatic relations could also use a consolidated interface. My strategy in most empire-building games is to blob and then look for diplomatic vassalizations. But there's no easy way to see who's willing to accept or close to accepting -- again, you have to click on every country and see for yourself. This would be just as useful for alliances. A lot of EU4 is waiting around. Creating an interface that explicates information and minimizes tedium would go a long way to making the game not only move along faster but also easier to understand for newbies. The mod scene can only do so much.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:14
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PittTheElder posted:Indeed, its not so important that it be a globe, just that it isn't the broken rear end non-projection we have now where the continents are misshapen and out of place.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:17
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Vegetable posted:A big reason for that is supposedly to reduce loading times. If South America went as far south as it should be, that's a bigger map. More to load. And a ton of extra useless blue stuff.
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Jul 26, 2016 21:25
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Chickpea Roar posted:And a ton of extra useless blue stuff.
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Jul 26, 2016 22:14
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Vegetable posted:For instance, trade. Steer or collect? Privateer or protect? I wish the trade-offs were more obvious. Tooltips are often wrong for the trade protecting, which doesn't help. I agree with most of your other points but these are incredibly different. It would definitely help if the tooltips were better but consolidating the actions would make no sense.
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Jul 26, 2016 22:21
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Koramei posted:I agree with most of your other points but these are incredibly different. It would definitely help if the tooltips were better but consolidating the actions would make no sense.
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Jul 26, 2016 22:46
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Koramei posted:I agree with most of your other points but these are incredibly different. It would definitely help if the tooltips were better but consolidating the actions would make no sense. privateering has no reason to exist and is pure bloat, imo the base trade system is interesting and encourages expansion in historical directions. privateering is just a way to avoid meaningfully interacting with it. lame!
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Jul 26, 2016 23:26
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Vegetable posted:A big reason for that is supposedly to reduce loading times. If South America went as far south as it should be, that's a bigger map. More to load. Nearly all of what's missing is ocean provinces. While you would need to load larger bitmaps (or give up a small amount of resolution I guess), we're talking provinces with nothing much going on in them, no history entries that need to be managed, etc. I'll trade an extra 2s at startup to get a correct map, and I'd be amazed if it was even that much. EU isn't all that memory intensive anyway.
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Jul 27, 2016 00:58
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PittTheElder posted:Indeed, its not so important that it be a globe, just that it isn't the broken rear end non-projection we have now where the continents are misshapen and out of place. If anything, it's more realistic for the continents to be misshapen and out of place during this part of history
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Jul 27, 2016 01:11
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Typus Orbis Terrarum uses a better projection and doesn't add anything much to the load time, at least from what I could tell.Vegetable posted:I'm not suggesting a simplification of system. Keep the distinct mechanisms but the interface should estimate how much steering vs collecting does for your trade income. Same with light ships, it should just give us a very clear what-if scenario of different deployments. Anything would be better than forcing the player to spend dozens of ingame months trying different combinations. Once you get to a proper sized trade empire, steering etc in one node in Malaysia or whatever can have such insane knock on effects down the line in Europe that wouldn't be a simple thing that they could keep calculating previews for. The trade interface already gets pretty laggy, I expect there's a reason the tooltips are so poo poo. That being said it's usually pretty straightforward to work out what the effects of putting some trade ships down or redirecting somewhere will do by yourself, just not in a precise way. What I think they should add is an "autoassign merchants" button. The game does it at the start anyway, and trade is such a huge wall to new players that even though they wouldn't assign perfectly it'd still be preferable for some people I'm sure. PleasingFungus posted:privateering has no reason to exist and is pure bloat, imo I like it so much better than the old "there are exactly 4 pirate ships in the entirety of the Moluccus" thing there used to be/ most other games do, having it abstracted with the privateering system makes the game world feel so much bigger and more alive. I wish it was modified by non-state actors too though, just a passive piracy uptick in trade zones that you're not patrolling with heavies.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:42
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QuarkJets posted:If anything, it's more realistic for the continents to be misshapen and out of place during this part of history If EU5 has some crazy pseudo-generated map that forms and deforms over time like geographers refining their techniques would draw I might keel over and die.
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Jul 27, 2016 01:57
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Odobenidae posted:If EU5 has some crazy pseudo-generated map that forms and deforms over time like geographers refining their techniques would draw I might keel over and die. I never knew how much I wanted that until you opened your big mouth.
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Jul 27, 2016 02:13
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Odobenidae posted:If EU5 has some crazy pseudo-generated map that forms and deforms over time like geographers refining their techniques would draw I might keel over and die. It might not even be very difficult to make that happen; instead of having grey terra incognita everywhere you'd just fill in that space with whatever seemed feasible at the time. And when the terra incognita would be revealed, you just reveal what's actually there. I've always thought it was odd that when you start as one of the many European powers you basically have no idea what most of Asia looks like. Cartography in 1444 was pretty bad but it wasn't that bad
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Jul 27, 2016 07:07
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QuarkJets posted:I've always thought it was odd that when you start as one of the many European powers you basically have no idea what most of Asia looks like. Cartography in 1444 was pretty bad but it wasn't that bad From 1489:  They knew Asia was there but to say they knew what it looked like is a bit of a stretch.
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Jul 27, 2016 07:15
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They barely know what Europe looks like
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Jul 27, 2016 07:18
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Wafflecopper posted:From 1489: Day 1 of EU4, you basically don't know that Eastern Asia is there. That's what I'm getting at. Also, I didn't say that they knew what Asia looked like with any real detail. This is what I said: QuarkJets posted:I've always thought it was odd that when you start as one of the many European powers you basically have no idea what most of Asia looks like. Cartography in 1444 was pretty bad but it wasn't that bad As your example shows, Europeans had some vague ideas regarding the size and shape of Asia. That is what I'd like to see drawn on top of the Terra Incognita. It would be cool
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Jul 27, 2016 07:40
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QuarkJets posted:It might not even be very difficult to make that happen; instead of having grey terra incognita everywhere you'd just fill in that space with whatever seemed feasible at the time. And when the terra incognita would be revealed, you just reveal what's actually there. You can do that with a mod and it wouldn't even break Ironman, I think. Just put your fantasy map full of lions and dragons as the Terra Incognita texture.
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Jul 27, 2016 07:42
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Wafflecopper posted:From 1489: If you reassign Sri Lanka's extra land area to India and merge the two semi-fictitious peninsulas together into Southeast Asia it's not horrible. The scales of a lot of the pieces are all wrong because nobody had done a thorough survey or anything but a person could explore the Asian coastline with this and only run into a few major surprises along the way.
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Jul 27, 2016 07:54
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Not to mention that people were really bad at accurately determining their longitude for a very long time anyway, so it's not like you could really expect the world maps to be that accurate anyway. People were combining Ptolemy's Geography with accounts of Marco Polo's exploration of eastern Asia by the end of the 15th century in order to create some vague idea of what Asia looked like, it'd be cool to have a sense of that.
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Jul 27, 2016 11:31
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QuarkJets posted:As your example shows, Europeans had some vague ideas regarding the size and shape of Asia. That is what I'd like to see drawn on top of the Terra Incognita. It would be cool The old game Merchant Prince did this: 
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Jul 27, 2016 13:15
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Wafflecopper posted:From 1489: "So there's this peninsula down in south east asia" "Oh yeah, how big is it?" "Pretty big I guess" "OKAY  "
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Jul 27, 2016 20:38
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My favourite part is ISLANDS EVERYWHERE, ISLANDS FOR EVERYONE in the Pacific
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Jul 28, 2016 02:10
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Arrhythmia posted:"So there's this peninsula down in south east asia" I'm fairly certain those are supposed to be Kathiawar and India, respectively. If they are, their scale to each other isn't completely off. If so, then that indicates they had a solid-enough idea of India, kinda-sorta knew about Indonesia, and no idea whatosever about mainland SE Asia.
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Jul 28, 2016 06:16
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Caustic Soda posted:I'm fairly certain those are supposed to be Kathiawar and India, respectively. If they are, their scale to each other isn't completely off. If so, then that indicates they had a solid-enough idea of India, kinda-sorta knew about Indonesia, and no idea whatosever about mainland SE Asia.  India is the big island and the chunk of mainland next to it. Southern India and Sri Lanka were bolted together into the big island, Ceylon. The ancient Mediterranean world had some limited trade contact even so far as Indonesia, and somebody obviously drew an outline of Malaysia and Sumatra...and only Malaysia and Sumatra, which were referred to as the Golden Chersonese. This made it into the ancient world maps as a peninsula and island southwest of China, which is reasonable. Ptolemy thought that south of China was a solid landmass, which he didn't really depict in detail since supposedly no one had ever been there. The Arab world had brought back word that actually the Pacific exists and there's a strait through Ptolemy's landmass, but the Europeans arrive at the conclusion that since obviously nobody else has ever been there it can't be the same thing as the Golden Chersonese. No, it's just another peninsula and island pair at the same longitude that looks suspiciously similar, don't question it! Incidentally, Columbus would have been in for a hell of a surprise even if the Americas hadn't existed, because he was aiming for the Dragon's Tail (the big mostly-fictional eastern peninsula). Also, I've never noticed before but Alaska is on this map! Well, a bullshit fantasy island where Alaska should be, anyway. Honestly, though, the grasp that they had on the basics of Asia was rather impressive for a bunch of people who didn't even know the actual shape of the Arabian peninsula. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 14:16
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I think the northeast island is actually supposed to be Japan (Glorious Zipangri), and the two southeast islands are Java and Timor, since it looks similar to the Waldseemuller map (warning: giant JPG)
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Jul 28, 2016 16:02
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Its a page or two late but I think Muscovy is a great pick as a starter nation because the HRE AE coalitionville isnt right next door. Early you are surrounded by weak-ish neighbors (Novgorod and the hordes); Novgorod is same culture/same religion (which makes for good simple early conquest) and then as you escalate you have to deal with off religion/off culture provinces. Trade is pretty straight forward, you have the option to colonize, eventually you can start playing with boats, you start with a good general, and the only big boys on the same block are the Polish/Lithuanians. Eventually Sweden ascends and the Ottomans are close enough to be a problem and the Timurids could be a pain if they stay together.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:07
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I look at Muscovy similar to Castille. There's a lot of good goals and options which make it nice looking for learning games. But depending on day 1 diplomacy rolls you may have 2 centuries of no resistance expansion into powers that are punching bags because alliances didn't pan out right, or else you end up with very real existential threats preventing you from uniting Russia's heartland to properly turn into the clown car you want to be to handle the scary alliances that have sprung up.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:19
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zedprime posted:I look at Muscovy similar to Castille. There's a lot of good goals and options which make it nice looking for learning games. But depending on day 1 diplomacy rolls you may have 2 centuries of no resistance expansion into powers that are punching bags because alliances didn't pan out right, or else you end up with very real existential threats preventing you from uniting Russia's heartland to properly turn into the clown car you want to be to handle the scary alliances that have sprung up. Meanwhile if you even look at France funny as Castille, you are hosed if they come for you.
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Jul 28, 2016 18:53
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Another dumb question: if I'm up to the fourth Aragon national idea and form Spain, do I get their first four national ideas or do I have to start from scratch?
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Jul 28, 2016 20:15
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You keep them, because it's based on your idea group progress and nothing else.
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Jul 28, 2016 20:24
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You keep them, because it's based on your idea group progress and nothing else.
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Jul 28, 2016 20:24
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Elotana posted:I think the northeast island is actually supposed to be Japan (Glorious Zipangri), and the two southeast islands are Java and Timor, since it looks similar to the Waldseemuller map (warning: giant JPG) Major exports: Samurai Polar Bears. Elotana posted:Another dumb question: if I'm up to the fourth Aragon national idea and form Spain, do I get their first four national ideas or do I have to start from scratch? You retain your progress.
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Jul 28, 2016 20:24
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Once someone has learned some of the basic ropes, I feel like a Central America game is actually a pretty educational experience if you want to sharpen your diplomacy and alliance-manipulation skills. You're basically smashing the reset button on the region every time that you reform your religion, and you have to reform your religion 5 times (or more if you encounter a doomsday), and in order to reform your religion you need 5 vassals. It's a real neat balancing act between A) maintaining dominance over the region by keeping more provinces than any of your potential vassals, B) not having too many provinces because then the Doom counter becomes uncontrollable, and C) properly dealing with rivals by navigating the web of alliances that naturally forms. All of this is facilitated with the Flower Wars CB, which is always active, and AE is a non-issue
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Jul 28, 2016 22:12
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The best thing is you can declare war even when you're in a regency, so no "gently caress you, 15 years of detention".
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Jul 28, 2016 22:19
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