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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's a perfect analogy, America being mostly empty and most jobs requiring little if any education aside. Judging by the way most Europeans act, your jobs must not require any education either.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:20
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I must have missed the part where the United States agreed to take in a million Syrian refugees. Oh wait it was 10000? Oh wait it turned out to be about a fifth of that? Whoops!
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Jul 27, 2016 23:48
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when the EU breaks up I hope Marie Le Pen doesnt keep the state of emergency permanently like her communazi President Hollande
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Jul 27, 2016 23:48
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khwarezm posted:I must have missed the part where the United States agreed to take in a million Syrian refugees. Thanks for not understanding the conversation but wanting to make your cringing terror obvious.
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Jul 27, 2016 23:50
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Nitrousoxide posted:That far off distant past of 1990. That aside, US immigration has the advantage of being either curated, or tied to employment opportunities and thus self-regulating. Meanwhile immigration to Europe is essentially divorced from the situation here, meaning refugees and immigrants come even if there are no job opportunities for them. (Which is totally understandable, but it makes for a distinctly different situation.) Brainiac Five posted:Thanks for not understanding the conversation but wanting to make your cringing terror obvious. 
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Jul 28, 2016 07:15
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Nitrousoxide posted:Remember when the USA took in a bunch of poor immigrates from Europe and collapsed from internal strife to become a 3rd world nation? I remember when a bunch of rich slave owners committed genocide in a huge continent packed with natural resources. Apart from that it's a perfect comparison.
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Jul 28, 2016 07:36
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USA also provides very little social security for immigrants, they either integrated and worked or faced starvation. But apparently that's not an option for European nations.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:13
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Every time I see this graph I always think the one on the right shouldn't have a truncated axis. It makes the amount look massive while the reality is that the largest is basically a percent. All in all less than average world population growth. Heck, for Norway, the US and the UK it's actually lower than standard population growth in those countries.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:41
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Tesseraction posted:Every time I see this graph I always think the one on the right shouldn't have a truncated axis. It makes the amount look massive while the reality is that the largest is basically a percent. All in all less than average world population growth. Heck, for Norway, the US and the UK it's actually lower than standard population growth in those countries.
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Jul 28, 2016 10:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's not truncated though. I mean as in it doesn't go from 0 to 100%
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Jul 28, 2016 10:49
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Puistokemisti posted:USA also provides very little social security for immigrants, they either integrated and worked or faced starvation. On the other hand crime levels are at record lows 
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Jul 28, 2016 10:58
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Tesseraction posted:I mean as in it doesn't go from 0 to 100% I get what you mean, but compressing the data on the right into a graph going to 100% would make it either hard to read or harder to compare to the left one.
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Jul 28, 2016 11:36
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Doctor Malaver posted:Tesseraction, do you think it is possible to argue against mass immigration from Middle East and not be racist? No. Free movement of people is a basic tenet of liberalism
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Jul 28, 2016 11:55
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Libluini posted:I get what you mean, but compressing the data on the right into a graph going to 100% would make it either hard to read or harder to compare to the left one. 100% would also be an arbitrary cut-off point, since it's comparing a different number to the one represented by the full 100%; if Sweden had received 20 million asylum claims the line would go way past 100%.
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Jul 28, 2016 11:59
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Libluini posted:I get what you mean, but compressing the data on the right into a graph going to 100% would make it either hard to read or harder to compare to the left one. I know, it just makes the number look bigger than it is. I appreciate it shows the clear difference in absolute numbers vs. percentage of population regardless. YF-23 posted:100% would also be an arbitrary cut-off point, since it's comparing a different number to the one represented by the full 100%; if Sweden had received 20 million asylum claims the line would go way past 100%. Being fair that would be a case where I might go "that seems a few too many at once" but more in terms of having infrastructure/housing/food ready. Of course I say that but Lebanon and Jordan seem to be experiencing something close...
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Jul 28, 2016 12:10
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Tesseraction posted:Every time I see this graph I always think the one on the right shouldn't have a truncated axis. It makes the amount look massive while the reality is that the largest is basically a percent. All in all less than average world population growth. Heck, for Norway, the US and the UK it's actually lower than standard population growth in those countries. Tesseraction posted:I know, it just makes the number look bigger than it is. I appreciate it shows the clear difference in absolute numbers vs. percentage of population regardless.
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Jul 28, 2016 13:35
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Tesseraction posted:I know, it just makes the number look bigger than it is. I appreciate it shows the clear difference in absolute numbers vs. percentage of population regardless. Integratin 1% of total population worth of a heterogenous stream of foreigners isn't insignificant at all, are you being serious? Remember the time FOX published a graph going all the way to like 200C to illustrate that observed temperature changes were too insignificant to cause global warming? steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 13:41
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Er, is this possible? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/27/catalonia-independence-spain-democratic-mandate quote:The separatist movement in Catalonia’s parliament has escalated its battle with Madrid after it defied Spain’s constitutional court by debating a controversial pro-independence roadmap, and the region’s president announced a confidence vote to consolidate the move towards sovereignty. How would that even work, unilaterally declaring independence and separating? And if they try, is there a possibility of tanks/soldiers on the streets?
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Jul 28, 2016 13:52
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PiCroft posted:Er, is this possible? Well.... no one really knows. The Catalans have done, to my mind, something smart, which is to outright invent the concept of "democratic disconnection" (that's how they call what they are doing). The fact that it does not yet exist in international law is actually a positive aspect, if they had tried to use the right to Self-determination as expressed in the UN charter then they would have had to contend with a long case history of self-determination being reduced in scope and effect. To put it shortly, there is one right in the UN charter that would help independence (self- determination) and three that would oppose it (territorial integrity, integrity of borders and national sovereignty). But I derail a little. The next paragraphs, indeed my entire post, in case you want to check my sources, are reasoned on the basis of UN resolution 1541(XV), which is, perhaps, the most solid base of international law on self-determination. Is it possible? Article 73e of the UN Charter more or less says that the moment the UN is appraised that someone wants independence it becomes a "thing" and the UN has to pay attention. The Catalans could be waiting to be advanced enough to trigger this (or have a friendly government to trigger this.... but who?) so at least it would be a thing in the UN and hey would gain some legitimacy. Or is the Catalan plan to ask their case to be taken up by the decolonization committee? It's not a crazy idea: Catalonia was added to Spain by Force. Spain has been arguing in the same committee for the return of a territory they (we) lost by force, Gibraltar. Or will the Catalans just say "gently caress it we are independent now" and hope no tanks come roaring? This might be more likely than it seems, considering the absolutely dismal state of the Spanish army. The aforementioned resolution seems to accept that the key difference that might make a population ask for indendence might be historical, economical, legal´and administrative, so... Then we could speak about all the UN, NATO and OSCE agreements that say that Spain isn't exactly supposed to use force against its citizens if force wasn't used first, and amongst this I'd mention the 1975 Helsinki Final Act, that states that borders are fixed, but also opens the door for borders to change through peaceful and agreed political processes, and international law. Yes, international law is stacked against the Catalans and Spain will never agree, but hey, Kosovo got its independence, so... All this to say: hell if I know what is going to happen. To me, in practical terms, everything hinges on two things. First: Will there be a left-wing coalition government in Spain, a government that will take a good, hard look at the Catalan grievances and engage in some constitutional reform to settle once and for all lingüistic and budgetary questions?? I give it a 30% chance, the Socialist party has waaay to many supporters who simply hates the Catalans and wants them to sit down and shut up, and that was the rock upon a possible agreement among left-wing forces ran aground, one set of elections ago. Alternatively, the conservatives could win and have a bit of a more pragmatic attitude towards the "historical nationalities" as we call them. I give this a 5% chance of happening because the the conservative party platform in Spain is essentially "gently caress the poor, gently caress the catalans and basques, more money for the rich", and inter-regional hatred has been one of the most important instruments of all parties in Spanish politics since 1975. They just can't change their mind on that. Too many Spaniards drink that koolaid. Second: Will Madrid use force to quash the separatist movement? I give this a 75% chance of happening because they have surveys amongst the Spanish officer corps and lemme tell you, they HATE the catalans and basques. (The question in that survey is whether they support the current half decentralized model, and 100% no joke answer "no, everything should be run from Madrid"). But that would be a Faustian pact, since the use of violence will only legitimize and fan the flames of Catalan separatism. I don't know what's going to happen. But honestly, I hope they become independent and that provides a watershed moment in Spain, so that we start cleaning up our act. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 14:12
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Dawncloack posted:Well.... no one really knows. The Catalans have done, to my mind, something smart, which is to outright invent the concept of "democratic disconnection" (that's how they call what they are doing). The fact that it does not yet exist in international law is actually a positive aspect, if they had tried to use the right to Self-determination as expressed in the UN charter then they would have had to contend with a long case history of self-determination being reduced in scope and effect. To put it shortly, there is one right in the UN charter that would help independence (self- determination) and three that would oppose it (territorial integrity, integrity of borders and national sovereignty). But I derail a little. Thanks for the effortpost, that's interesting. A 75% chance of military intervention is a disturbing prospect 
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Jul 28, 2016 14:32
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PiCroft posted:Thanks for the effortpost, that's interesting. A 75% chance of military intervention is a disturbing prospect It definitely is, but you have to consider that the party in government in Spain right now is a direct successor to the Franco Regime. They haven't changed their mentalities, and neither has the army.
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Jul 28, 2016 14:34
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I'm pretty sure Catalonia wasn't added via force since to was joined as part of Aragon to Castile with the Spanish Union.
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Jul 28, 2016 14:46
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Nitrousoxide posted:I'm pretty sure Catalonia wasn't added via force since to was joined as part of Aragon to Castile with the Spanish Union. It is, definitely, not a clear cut question. The Spanish Union obviously happened. But Catalonia (Aragon, as you rightly point out) had wide autonomy at the time (the "Fueros"). At the beginning of the XVIII century, though, the war of succession happened and Catalonia decided to pitch in for the losing team, a German pretender. That war was over in 1713 but the Catalans fought on on their own until the 11th of September 1714, and have been shat upon the central government ever since, particularly at surrender, when Spain did not respect the agreement not to plunder the city upon surrender. Ever since then and until the first Spanish Republic they had not a lot of autonomy, they lost it again during the Primo de Rivera coup, regained with the Second Spanish Republic and lost it again with Franco. If I was one of those people who thought historical precedent was the basis for independence I'd argue the case that it was added by force when they chose to go alone and ally with the Holy Roman Empire. If I opposed their independence I'd argue the opposite. In actual fact I don't give a drat about history. They have a desire for self-determination and I think that's inherently worthy of respect. To clarify, in my earlier post I just mentioned an argument they could use in front of the decolonization committee, even without taking force into account. I doubt they'll try that though. Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 28, 2016 |
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Jul 28, 2016 14:57
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PiCroft posted:How would that even work, unilaterally declaring independence and separating? And if they try, is there a possibility of tanks/soldiers on the streets?
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Jul 28, 2016 15:06
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LemonDrizzle posted:They're insane and they're going to get themselves shot or sentenced to life imprisonment for treason. And that will make martyrs of them.
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Jul 28, 2016 15:11
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PiCroft posted:Thanks for the effortpost, that's interesting. A 75% chance of military intervention is a disturbing prospect I'm pretty sure the chances are actually 74%, not 75%. The spread is about 7,6%
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Jul 28, 2016 15:14
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Dawncloack posted:And that will make martyrs of them. The smart thing for Spain to do would be to bring in the police arrest the people doing that. Let Catalonians escalate the use of force and they become the bad guys.
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Jul 28, 2016 15:25
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Speaking of independence movements http://www.thelocal.fr/20160728/corsican-militants-threaten-to-hit-back-against-islamist-radicals quote:A militant splinter group on the French island of Corsica has warned Islamist extremists that they would respond to any attack that took place on the island.
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Jul 28, 2016 15:37
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As a Portuguese I sympathise with the struggle of my Catalan and Basque brothers to be free of Spanish tyranny once and for all, and also as a Portuguese watching Spain burn down is Great. De Espanha nem bom vento nem bom casamento!
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Jul 28, 2016 16:43
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Nitrousoxide posted:The smart thing for Spain to do would be to bring in the police arrest the people doing that. As I said, that would only fan the flames of separatism. Stonewalling and attacking the Catalans simply won't work at this point, imo, and about the force thing, they had a terrorist band and they disbanded it themselves. It's fairly obvious that violence will not work and they know it. Personally I hope the Catalans succeed and seceed. Spanish politicians spend enough time covering their theft with some good old interregional hatred.
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Jul 28, 2016 16:44
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PiCroft posted:How would that even work, unilaterally declaring independence and separating? And if they try, is there a possibility of tanks/soldiers on the streets? The principle of self-determination is enshrined in international law. If there is legitimate support for independence in a part of a country, that takes precedence over the rest of the country being against separatism.
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Jul 28, 2016 16:52
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Catalan has representation in the government just like the rest of Spain though?
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Jul 28, 2016 16:58
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Kurtofan posted:Speaking of independence movements Without necessarily condoning it I think there is a case to be made for the justifiability of vigilante retaliation against Salafist Imams and spokesmen in the immediate aftermath of a religiously-inspired terrorist attack.
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Jul 28, 2016 16:58
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Nitrousoxide posted:Catalan has representation in the government just like the rest of Spain though?
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Jul 28, 2016 17:03
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YF-23 posted:The principle of self-determination is enshrined in international law. If there is legitimate support for independence in a part of a country, that takes precedence over the rest of the country being against separatism. It's not as clear cut. As I mentioned, anyone who tries that will have to contend with the rights to territorial and border integrity and sovereignty. I mean, I agree with you that it's in intl. law and I wish it was respected more. As it is, in practice, these days it is only applied in cases of colonization or military occupation (if I remember correctly). Nitrousoxide, what's your point?
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Jul 28, 2016 17:04
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I know it's not as clear-cut and that there's other legal obstacles that need to be overcome, but it's important to make that kind of reminder when someone is baffled by the concept of unilateral secession.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:07
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What is their justification for Independence? They aren't being disenfranchised. They are in a modern Democracy. It isn't like that are some suppressed group in an autocratic government.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:08
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You don't need to be oppressed to be able to express your right to self-determination. e; If anything, being denied your right to self-determination qualifies as oppression.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:14
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Nitrousoxide posted:What is their justification for Independence? They aren't being disenfranchised. They are in a modern Democracy. It isn't like that are some suppressed group in an autocratic government. It's a combination of Madrid genuinely treating them like poo poo for a long time and some provincial chauvinism where they'd like to say FYGM to the rest of the country too.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:14
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YF-23 posted:You don't need to be oppressed to be able to express your right to self-determination. But they have that already through the Spanish parliament... Sinteres posted:... some provincial chauvinism where they'd like to say FYGM to the rest of the country too. This is like 99% of the reasoning I've seen for them. Like they're richer than the rest of the country and don't like some of their money being spent to provide school and medicine for the poors.
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Jul 28, 2016 17:19
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