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Toplowtech posted:The paperback for the whole comic is named The Prisoner Shattered Visage, for the people interested:  Don't read until you're done with the series There's some pretty massive spoilers in there.
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Aug 1, 2016 16:49
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Episode 7 - The General In this episode of The Prisoner we explore that state of today's educational system. This is one of the episodes where the social metaphor is a bit more blatant and the narrative is a bit more philosophical than exposition. However it is one of my favorite episodes, it broadens The Village more and it isn't just about Number 6. I am starting to get a real Ron Swanson vibe from Number 6... anything offered by the government and computers are not to be trusted. No 6 is never asked why he resigned, and makes no attempt to escape either. He is even given the opportunity to possibly exchange the radio for his freedom and he chooses not to. Colin Gordon plays Number 2 in this episode and the next. The only other actor to reprise Number 2 other than Leo McKern. 12 is played by John Castle who was in Lion In Winter, if you have never seen it, you should. Toplowtech posted:The 1988 DC one with crazy old bearded 6 still in the now destroyed village? With the people there no even remembering WHO he is and WHY the gently caress that crazy dude is there, still resisting, still being unmutual? This is awesome, I knew nothing about it.
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Aug 1, 2016 17:13
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I got the feeling from that interview posted earlier that Mcgoohan himself is very much like Number 6 on his attitudes toward progress, government , and civilization. He seems however only to lack that iron will of 6 which allows him to reject society and his ties to it completely.
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Aug 1, 2016 17:34
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York_M_Chan posted:Colin Gordon plays Number 2 in this episode and the next. The only other actor to reprise Number 2 other than Leo McKern. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 22:15
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Toplowtech posted:Echoing the love for the 1968 version of the Lion in Winter, John Castle, Peter O'Toole, Katharine Hepburn, Anthony Hopkins( in his first movie role), John Castle, Nigel Terry and Timothy Dalton are a fantastic ensemble.The soundtrack by John Barry is insanely good. That is a brilliant movie. Regarding The General, was it me or was the direction really different in this episode? Some really odd scoring choices as well. Despite Number 6's claim, I can answer "Why?": "Why not?" And speaking of The Prisoner in other media, I really should play one of the two Prisoner adventure games. They're from around 1980 and aren't licensed despite being very popular at the time. The gimmick of the game is that you're assigned a number at the beginning and then the game tries to trick you into giving it that number.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:26
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Random Stranger posted:Despite Number 6's claim, I can answer "Why?": "Why not?" Why? Because. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.
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Aug 1, 2016 22:46
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Yeah the graphic novel is quite good indeed.
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Aug 2, 2016 00:17
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I really dug that episode, primarily because the Prisoner was so incidental to the actual plans/plot of the Village and Number 2 this time around. Having him as a fly in the ointment was pretty great, I like the idea that he's starting to infect the Village and gently caress over things that have nothing to do with him and their attempts to break him/get him to tell why he resigned. The final exchange between him and No 2 was so great. "W. H. Y. Question mark.  ""Why?  ""Why "".......why?  "The line about a row of well-educated cabbages was pretty good - teaching people facts without comprehension is really a terrifying concept and I'm sure that there was (and still is) a very real fear about the dumbing down of the educational system, as well as an eagerness on the part of certain people to completely control what people know/think under the pretense of improving them.
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Aug 2, 2016 01:12
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Jerusalem posted:The line about a row of well-educated cabbages was pretty good - teaching people facts without comprehension is really a terrifying concept and I'm sure that there was (and still is) a very real fear about the dumbing down of the educational system, as well as an eagerness on the part of certain people to completely control what people know/think under the pretense of improving them. Concerns about the educational system being based on rote learning go back to at least the 1930's (and probably a few decades earlier than that). The Village's method is a bit more extreme than that since it's obvious that they're all just being fed a straight list of contextless facts that they can parrot back. This raises the question of what would their teaching method do for mathematics or composition where understanding the process through applying the rules is more important than knowing the rules themselves.
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Aug 2, 2016 01:55
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Perhaps the most troubling aspect of that speed learning system was the obvious surprise and confusion of the people spouting the facts back when prompted. Not only was the information contextless, they didn't even realize they had it until it came out of their mouth without any conscious thought of their own. In which case they not only don't know it in the sense that they don't understand it, they don't even KNOW that they have the data in their heads.
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Aug 2, 2016 03:40
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Jerusalem posted:Perhaps the most troubling aspect of that speed learning system was the obvious surprise and confusion of the people spouting the facts back when prompted. Not only was the information contextless, they didn't even realize they had it until it came out of their mouth without any conscious thought of their own. In which case they not only don't know it in the sense that they don't understand it, they don't even KNOW that they have the data in their heads.
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Aug 2, 2016 07:35
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Random Stranger posted:Despite Number 6's claim, I can answer "Why?": "Why not?" Exactly, you can answer it because you are not a machine. I think that is the point, human's have the capacity for abstract thought, computers do not. Number 6 is walking the fine line between revolutionary and cranky old man.
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Aug 2, 2016 14:45
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York_M_Chan posted:Episode 7 - The General Wa11y posted:Why? Jerusalem posted:The line about a row of well-educated cabbages was pretty good - teaching people facts without comprehension is really a terrifying concept and I'm sure that there was (and still is) a very real fear about the dumbing down of the educational system, as well as an eagerness on the part of certain people to completely control what people know/think under the pretense of improving them. Jerusalem posted:Perhaps the most troubling aspect of that speed learning system was the obvious surprise and confusion of the people spouting the facts back when prompted. Not only was the information contextless, they didn't even realize they had it until it came out of their mouth without any conscious thought of their own. In which case they not only don't know it in the sense that they don't understand it, they don't even KNOW that they have the data in their heads. Toplowtech posted:in village where everyone want to know what he KNOWS, the idea of a technology that would make him know important facts without realizing it must scare the gently caress out of 6. York_M_Chan posted:Exactly, you can answer it because you are not a machine. I think that is the point, human's have the capacity for abstract thought, computers do not.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:20
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Tiggum posted:Why? They can make him parrot back anything they want, but they'd need to know in advance what they want him to say, in which case there's no point in asking him.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:48
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Jerusalem posted:I really dug that episode, primarily because the Prisoner was so incidental to the actual plans/plot of the Village and Number 2 this time around. Having him as a fly in the ointment was pretty great, I like the idea that he's starting to infect the Village and gently caress over things that have nothing to do with him and their attempts to break him/get him to tell why he resigned. The final exchange between him and No 2 was so great. It's one of the reasons I liked this episode. The whole using it for history is a dry run, a beta test for large scale subliminal propaganda. Think about a government that can implant facts directly into your brain, bypassing any critical reasoning brain centers? Sure, it might be fun to be able to do the whole "I know Kung Fu", but I don't know about doing the whole "I know Kung Fu and can help #MakeAmericaGreatAgain" I mean the way people answer the questions in the same way is basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIiOXff8A5Y As far as the ending, I look at it as a machine cannot answer complex metaphysical questions, and being designed to be so analytical that it can deduce any fact and verify it, it would try to find an answer to a question it never could. Also, it's funny seeing people complain that TV does not have realistic computers since they have error handling in computers now as opposed to 50 years ago when this was made. Never change, goons.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:52
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wins.
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Late to this thread I know but I found Dance of the Dead absolutely terrifying when I first saw it as a young teenager. It's not any scene in particular, it's just the general air of menace and the total futility of 6's situation. I used to buy episodes of The Prisoner on VHS with money from a Saturday job. It's really great that people are still discovering this show, I hope Prisoner newbies are enjoying it.
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Aug 2, 2016 22:32
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Tiggum posted:That pretty much completely undermines the fear of brainwashing then. You might say, when asked, that you adore the glorious leader, but you won't act on it because you only have access to that information in the context of answering questions about it. That's not taking into account the idea that once this became widespread and established it's not just going to be layering on top of pre-established knowledge, but completely replacing the old forms of education. So you'd have people raised to be encyclopedias and never learning critical thinking skills (I'm sure the elite would still have that privilege), and without the bedrock of an actual education underlying it how long till the echo chamber of compelled statements just becomes the way people DO think? If you're born and raised with information being transmitted directly into your brain and you and everybody around you answers the exact same way to every question answered, you'd naturally assume that this is normal and right. Obviously the episode is taking things completely over the top for the purposes of drama, but I think the underlying message of,"People need to be able to think, understand and reach conclusions. Not just memorize facts" is a good one.
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Aug 2, 2016 23:37
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The Prisoner seems to exist in a world where New World Order conspiracy theories have some serious truth to them. This episode and Number 2's rant in Chimes of Big Ben do a lot to hint at the motives of the people behind the Village.
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Aug 2, 2016 23:42
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Well poo poo, why have I never noticed this thread?  Love this show, one of my all time favorites, I watched it through several times. Right now I'm listening to the Big Finish remake 20 minutes at a time, a few nights a week on the way home from work. So far it's great. The guy playing Number 6 is a good audio ringer for McGoohan, and in the first episode nails that seething just below the surface constant anger 6 had, particularly in the beginning of the series. The first ep is a pretty straightforward retelling of Arrival with some added background in the beginning. What I'm particularly interested in is that while it is firmly established that 6 is from the 60s, the technology is of OUR time--tablets, AI software Village Info Booths, 3D holigraphic maps, "online billing" in the shop.It makes me wonder where Nick Briggs is going with this...perhaps Wayward Pines scenario? Or Big O? Have 6 and the others been frozen and awoken in the future? Are they in a modern VR simulation? Definitely gives it a new hook while keeping the trappings of the original. The one thing that disappoints is (and I mentioned this in the DW thread) is that they couldn't get the rights apparently to the theme. LAME. On the other hand, I'd have to listen to a comparison to be sure, but I think they managed to get the Rover sfx right--or at least a reasonable pastiche. precision posted:Yeah the graphic novel is quite good indeed. Another thing I highly recommend, if you can get your hands on it, is the novel done a few years back by Powys Media. It was intended to be the start of a series, a sequel where after the events of the finale, OH SNAP he's Back In The Village faster than you can cue up Iron Maiden, and once again he's trying to get out. It's called The Prisoner's Dilemma and it's written by veteran Doctor Who novel writer Jonathan Blum. Does a fantastic job of expanding the world and doing some huge set pieces they could never afford on the show while maintaining the feel of the series. https://www.amazon.com/Prisoner-Jonathan-Blum-Rupert-Booth/dp/0967728053 Andrew Cartmel, also of Doctor Who writing fame, wrote another but I've never been able to find it. The publisher seems to have stalled in getting the rest done, which is a shame.
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Aug 3, 2016 01:58
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And since we are talking about the prisoner inspired material, can we all agree not talk about the recent The Prisoner ITV/AMC 2009 miniseries. t Let's act like It was all a "dream state" like bad experience and blame pizza.
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Aug 3, 2016 03:38
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Toplowtech posted:And since we are talking about the prisoner inspired material, can we all agree not talk about the recent The Prisoner ITV/AMC 2009 miniseries. t Second. (Although Ian McKellen did make a good Number 2) I don't think The Simpsons' Prisoner episode has been mentioned yet, McGoohan actually came out of retirement to play 6 again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RV3RXMNGVs And the Iron Maiden songs have been mentioned but not posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7LH__BPqSY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8p4raXEQLU The Clash also did one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgveFRUP2-Q And lastly, while we are talking about music, there is a band called Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling (an epsidoe name) that recreated the opening for one of their videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbUhmwSObto Apparently there is even an RPG (did someone already mention that?) - I have never played an RPG but I would be willing to start with The Prisoner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner_in_other_media
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Aug 3, 2016 15:40
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York_M_Chan posted:Apparently there is even an RPG (did someone already mention that?) - I have never played an RPG but I would be willing to start with The Prisoner. The RPG is a GURPS sourcebook from the 1980's that has been rare and collectable for decades. Expect to spend $50+ on a pretty thin booklet if you want a copy. There is an article by the author about it that doesn't really have spoilers.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:36
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Random Stranger posted:And speaking of The Prisoner in other media, I really should play one of the two Prisoner adventure games. They're from around 1980 and aren't licensed despite being very popular at the time. The gimmick of the game is that you're assigned a number at the beginning and then the game tries to trick you into giving it that number.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:58
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Payndz posted:Good article about the Apple ][ Prisoner game here. It's punishingly difficult, obtuse and frustrating with rules that change constantly depending which Pretty big show spoiler in this article in case anyone new is watching.
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Aug 3, 2016 22:58
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Payndz posted:Good article about the Apple ][ Prisoner game here. It's punishingly difficult, obtuse and frustrating with rules that change constantly depending which I'm trying to work my way through the original right now and holy balls it's hard. So far my most proud accomplishments are finding out the Escape key is a shortcut out of the Castle and having the show's opening conversation with the Caretaker. It's a little thing and I'm not even sure why, but typing "you won't get it" and getting back "by hook or by crook we will" was incredible. 
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Aug 5, 2016 01:12
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Payndz posted:Good article about the Apple ][ Prisoner game here. It's punishingly difficult, obtuse and frustrating with rules that change constantly depending which Holy crap, this blog is a massive rabbit hole of a timesink for anyone who grew up playing 80s computer games. Thanks!
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Aug 6, 2016 22:05
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precision posted:Holy crap, this blog is a massive rabbit hole of a timesink for anyone who grew up playing 80s computer games. Thanks! I'm making headway and I'm not sure how anyone can play this without being able to read code. I'm not sure there is a way.
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Aug 7, 2016 06:37
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Toplowtech posted:And since we are talking about the prisoner inspired material, can we all agree not talk about the recent The Prisoner ITV/AMC 2009 miniseries. t The director was Number Two. That was just an attempt to get Number Six to reveal his secret. If they got him railing on it long enough he might slip up.
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Aug 7, 2016 06:40
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PassTheRemote posted:Everyone wanted more Danger Man, even the networks. That show was so popular, He was rumored to be approached for the role of James Bond. Fall Out hurt his career in the sense that people hated the ending, but this show has endured 50 years later, has Danger Man had that kind of cultural impact now? Had McGoohan did a conventional ending, would this show be like Danger Man, the Saint, and all those spy shows which fell by the wayside after the spy craze of the 1960's, and many were just forgotten? Besides, he won some emmys starring in Columbo, also directed some episodes. Don’t sell that short. Oh, I agree that in the long run that McGoohan "won", in the sense that he made something that has stood the test of time, artistically and intellectually, and is still being discussed to this day(which couldn't be said of, say, The Persuaders). It's just that back then it was something of a pyrrhic victory. He effectively petrol-bombed his own career and then legged it as fast he could. In that respect I've always found it fascinating how Fall Out mirrors his internal struggles - the need to please everyone and play nice with the establishment versus the desire to burn it all to the ground and get the hell out there.
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Aug 7, 2016 10:15
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Maelstache posted:(which couldn't be said of, say, The Persuaders). Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Aug 7, 2016 |
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Aug 7, 2016 11:15
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Got a crown put in today so I am pretty miserable. Feel free to discus A.B.C. - I will do the breakdown tomorrow.
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Aug 8, 2016 18:08
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It's entirely on the phone, but this episode gives the impression that things are changing in the Village's attitude to Number Six. This is the first time that Number Two feels threatened by the situation. I laughed when Number Six poured out the cocoa (or whatever they were serving him before bed), poured a drink of water, and then got drugged anyway. Was Madam Olga actually a spy or was Number Six already playing them at that point? I get the feeling like she might get hauled into the Village regardless of the situation.
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Aug 9, 2016 13:00
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Random Stranger posted:I laughed when Number Six poured out the cocoa (or whatever they were serving him before bed), poured a drink of water, and then got drugged anyway. I'm pretty sure he was faking being drugged, so they wouldn't think anything was up, and still take him into their thing that night, where he could do some "lucid dreaming" and control the dream to make it look like No. 2 is the mastermind behind everything. I would think the Madame was NOT a spy, and that was just part of No. 6 controlling things, but who really knows, since they didn't have much information on C. Could have been she was a spy. Trying to make No. 2 look like the mastermind was a bit flimsy, since you'd figure whoever was REALLY in charge of the Village would have vetted everyone who was going to be No. 2, and probably would have already known about that.
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Aug 9, 2016 14:25
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Wa11y posted:I'm pretty sure he was faking being drugged, so they wouldn't think anything was up, and still take him into their thing that night, where he could do some "lucid dreaming" and control the dream to make it look like No. 2 is the mastermind behind everything. I would think the Madame was NOT a spy, and that was just part of No. 6 controlling things, but who really knows, since they didn't have much information on C. Could have been she was a spy. A,B,and C is an interesting episode. This No. 2 is completely terrified of his masters, causing him to take risks he should not have and give promises he cannot guarentee. The highlight of the episode is the third party scene, where The Prisoner decides to gently caress with the world, and figures out if he is dreaming, he's gonna have some fun. Him having No. 2 as the mastermind was a way to troll No. 2, and shows that The Prisoner is in control.
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Aug 9, 2016 14:30
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The best moment in this one is when the Prisoner is on the dream machine screen storming through the lab doors and Number 2 ACTUALLY TURNS AROUND as if he's actually coming in.
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Aug 9, 2016 15:04
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Wa11y posted:I'm pretty sure he was faking being drugged, so they wouldn't think anything was up, and still take him into their thing that night, where he could do some "lucid dreaming" and control the dream to make it look like No. 2 is the mastermind behind everything. That seems risky since the Village can definitely observe him in his house. I figured his plan was to just get a drink of water and go to sleep normally, and then he got drugged anyway. Gaz-L posted:The best moment in this one is when the Prisoner is on the dream machine screen storming through the lab doors and Number 2 ACTUALLY TURNS AROUND as if he's actually coming in. Yeah, that was really fantastic because to the crazy blend of reality and dream.
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Aug 9, 2016 16:59
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A., B., and C. - “Once you get used to the druggings, this isn't a bad place." This is one of my favorite episodes. Colin Gordon returns as Number 2 and his time is running short and he's getting an ulcer, although one can argue that he never really got a shot to get the resignation info in The General. "Number 2 believes that Number 6 resigned because he was going to sell out. Using dream manipulation, Number 2 tries to determine which one of three possible candidates Number 6 was dealing with." Also, Number 6 attends a key party. This also begins the theme of Number 6 turning the table on Number 2. Hammer Into Anvil will really drive that idea home. I don't know why he feels the need to follow Number 14. The trail always leads to Number 2's house. Also, The Village... we have camera's everywhere, except in our most sensitive of laboratories. I like that they found a really creative way to have an episode take place outside of The Village without it really taking place outside of The Village. Also, Number 6 is a bit more debonair and wiser-crackery in his Pre-Village days, obviously playing on James Bond. Random bit of trivia, the maid that brings the note for Number 6 is Bettine Le Beau. Aside from being in the Benny Hill Show, she was Jewish and was held in a concentration camp in southern France. She escaped from Camp DeGurs and was helped by a family who hid her from the Nazis. Oh, also if you watch Fresh Of The Boat, Grandma Huang (Lucille Soong) is the flower girl, she is really the old Asian lady in pretty much everything:  Random Stranger posted:That seems risky since the Village can definitely observe him in his house. I figured his plan was to just get a drink of water and go to sleep normally, and then he got drugged anyway. I really don't know if he is pretending or not. He watered down the serum so he did plan to go back to the room but he probably wanted to be as alert as possible. According to the wiki page it says he "fakes drinking the drugged tea, and instead acts drugged before he is taken back to the laboratory." But then why carry the water glass?
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Aug 9, 2016 19:33
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PassTheRemote posted:A,B,and C is an interesting episode. This No. 2 is completely terrified of his masters, causing him to take risks he should not have and give promises he cannot guarantee. "Oh god oh god if I don't pull this off they've already got a number prepped and it's not 2  "
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Aug 9, 2016 19:54
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I loved this episode. At the start despite the framing device of the dream machine it felt a little too heavy-handed on the old school spy drama stuff with the Prisoner attending a party, meeting rival spies etc but by the third iteration where everything has gone off its wheels and he's basically high as poo poo sardonically traipsing around cracking deadpan jokes I was loving it. Though I saw his fake reveal coming, the scene of him dreaming returning to the lab and meeting 2 and 14 inside was masterfully done, when he walks through the door and they both turn in real life to see if he's actually come inside even though he's right there unconscious on the bed was just fantastic. Great to see 2 cracking under the pressure, and I loved the constant foreground use of the giant phone and his terrified looks towards it. This episode just goes to show how painfully wrong the airdate order actually was since this version of 2 returning 3 episodes later supposedly completely in control and mostly unperturbed/uninterested in 6 would have made no sense at all. Also was it just a matter of high def remasters making stuff easier to see or was there an intentional purpose behind an early scene in his bedroom clearly showing wet footprints on the carpet?
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Aug 10, 2016 06:52
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Wa11y posted:I'm pretty sure he was faking being drugged, so they wouldn't think anything was up, and still take him into their thing that night, where he could do some "lucid dreaming" and control the dream Wa11y posted:I would think the Madame was NOT a spy, and that was just part of No. 6 controlling things, but who really knows, since they didn't have much information on C. Could have been she was a spy. Wa11y posted:Trying to make No. 2 look like the mastermind was a bit flimsy, since you'd figure whoever was REALLY in charge of the Village would have vetted everyone who was going to be No. 2, and probably would have already known about that. PassTheRemote posted:This No. 2 is completely terrified of his masters, causing him to take risks he should not have and give promises he cannot guarentee. Gaz-L posted:The best moment in this one is when the Prisoner is on the dream machine screen storming through the lab doors and Number 2 ACTUALLY TURNS AROUND as if he's actually coming in. Jerusalem posted:the scene of him dreaming returning to the lab and meeting 2 and 14 inside was masterfully done, when he walks through the door and they both turn in real life to see if he's actually come inside even though he's right there unconscious on the bed was just fantastic. York_M_Chan posted:I don't know why he feels the need to follow Number 14. The trail always leads to Number 2's house.  York_M_Chan posted:Also, The Village... we have camera's everywhere, except in our most sensitive of laboratories. York_M_Chan posted:He watered down the serum Jerusalem posted:Also was it just a matter of high def remasters making stuff easier to see or was there an intentional purpose behind an early scene in his bedroom clearly showing wet footprints on the carpet?
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Aug 10, 2016 12:20
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