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Alkydere posted:How is this so hard to understand for a Eurogoon? You JUST watched Brexit happen. The same demographic that torpedoed the UK's financial stability with 52% of the vote is the one that's drooling over Trump: old, racist white people who are angry and terrified of the nice young brown/black person with an unusual accent that was ahead of them in a grocery store line one time. They're the same people who are increasingly voting for the fascists across the Euro-zone right now. The only thing that differs is the language they all speak and what accent they use but in the same the vast majority of the voting block doing this stupid poo poo is the old, terrified white people. I'm not trying to imply that Europe is any less on a slow march to fascism, that's not the incomprehensible part. It's that the population is ready to hand the key to the most important office in the country to a character from the Jersey Shore. He is mentally a child, that's what gets me. The German Trump equivalent has a PhD in Chemistry and founded her own company. The French Trump equivalent has a law degree. They are all grown up people, that have shown a basic level competence and skill throughout life. Trump is a child. Even if you are a racist hick from bumfuck nowhere, you can still spot a bad lawyer, doctor or a bad cashier at a supermarket.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:20
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The polling makes it pretty clear that Johnson is going to pull a not insignificant number of people who would normally vote GOP but can't do it for Trump. This is good for Hillary.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:24
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The European nationalist bigots are more well-educated and tactful, yes, but then they go on and use that intellectualism and education and tactfulness to disguise their bigotry and xenophobia in dogwhistles and subtleties. I mean, so did William F Buckley. Trump doesn't, because he can't, but that's why people who like him, like him.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:25
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waitwhatno posted:Eurogoon here, how the gently caress is Trump polling at ~40%? How is ~40% of your voting population ready to elect that clown? Doesn't the National Front poll at 40% in France? And the entire political elite in the UK just shat all over themselves. I think a US government headed by a president Trump would still be more effective and competent than the UK's government.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:25
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waitwhatno posted:I'm not trying to imply that Europe is any less on a slow march to fascism, that's not the incomprehensible part. It's that the population is ready to hand the key to the most important office in the country to a character from the Jersey Shore. He is mentally a child, that's what gets me. Just wait until they figure out that they'll enjoy more success if they run a hyper-alpha lunatic racist instead of somebody concerned with qualifications or stopping to think for 3 seconds We had a couple EU-style far right guys in the GOP primary and they got steamrolled
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Aug 2, 2016 15:25
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waitwhatno posted:The German Trump equivalent has a PhD in Chemistry and founded her own company. The French Trump equivalent has a law degree. They are all grown up people, that have shown a basic level competence and skill throughout life. Trump is a child. Even if you are a racist hick from bumfuck nowhere, you can still spot a bad lawyer, doctor or a bad cashier at a supermarket. Trump is a very successful business man. He's founded many businesses. The best businesses. His wife is beautiful, and his buildings are very big. The biggest. He doesn't have a law degree--he has his own university.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:26
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Noam Chomsky posted:It is unique to Republicans. If the Democrats were running a Trump, or if Trump were running as a Democrat, he wouldn't be polling at ~40%. Yeah. If the Republicans started running a guy saying that we need to be accepting of all races and also raise taxes because we can't just keep trying to austerity our way into prosperity he would very possibly not be polling at 40% unless he was seriously pulling Democratic voters over.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:27
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waitwhatno posted:I'm not trying to imply that Europe is any less on a slow march to fascism, that's not the incomprehensible part. It's that the population is ready to hand the key to the most important office in the country to a character from the Jersey Shore. He is mentally a child, that's what gets me. What you need to understand is that one of the messages pushed by the GOP's talk radio wing for years, basically whenever a Democrat is President, is 'If we just stood up and really told the world what we really mean we'd totally win!' That's their excuse every time they lose. That the GOP's standard bearer wasn't loudly and proudly racist enough. They've had to sustain themselves on dogwhistles and coded talk for decades while being told their ideas are extremely popular and if someone just says them aloud it will give them victory like magic. Trump does have one skill and that's getting attention and showmanship. His primary victory looks (to a lot of the GOP base) to have validated the idea that loud and open racism and attention getting are an invincible strategy. It's looking like the General is going to prove them wrong, but still. They don't care that he's a poo poo businessman, they care that he's a very loud racist.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:27
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waitwhatno posted:I'm not trying to imply that Europe is any less on a slow march to fascism, that's not the incomprehensible part. It's that the population is ready to hand the key to the most important office in the country to a character from the Jersey Shore. He is mentally a child, that's what gets me. This is what happens when you move all the low-skill jobs to other countries, and the remaining jobs pay poo poo, and a financial collapse wipes out even more jobs. Trump is a symptom of a huge contingent of whites who feel they have no futures so the plan is to steal the futures of others. They don't have the education necessary to see that they're just now part of the same class struggle most minorities have been a part of forever. If you're surprised by Trump I'm not sure what to tell you. I remember arguing with people on the internet in 2007, on another forum, about the financial collapse leading towards creeping fascism. Many posters felt that job retraining would take care of everything and it'll all be OK. Too bougie blind to see that there just aren't many well paying, low skill jobs anymore and there will be fewer as time goes on. TL;DR - If people can't build a life for themselves, they'll just try to burn it all down.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:28
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Also Europe is turbo-racist, they just have to deal with it less often.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:29
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waitwhatno posted:I'm not trying to imply that Europe is any less on a slow march to fascism, that's not the incomprehensible part. It's that the population is ready to hand the key to the most important office in the country to a character from the Jersey Shore. He is mentally a child, that's what gets me. the republican party in the US actually sold their constituents on Trump's characteristics for a number of years. In countless speeches and elections from state offices to Romney 2012, they made wealthiness, anti-political correctness, business "acumen," racism (but generally only through dogwhistles), and being a political outsider into the only virtues that mattered. But none of the GOP actually had those characteristics. Then someone--Trump, naturally--who embodied all those things decided to run for president, and the GOP having done such a good job indoctrinating their base about those "virtues," that base fell for him hook, line, and sinker.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:31
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Noam Chomsky posted:It is unique to Republicans. If the Democrats were running a Trump, or if Trump were running as a Democrat, he wouldn't be polling at ~40%. Mondale got 40% of the vote.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:31
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Radish posted:Yeah. If the Republicans started running a guy saying that we need to be accepting of all races and also raise taxes because we can't just keep trying to austerity our way into prosperity he would very possibly not be polling at 40% unless he was seriously pulling Democratic voters over. That being said, I would start to worry if someone with Obama's oration skills, Bernie's platform, and Trump's racism was running.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:32
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This election cycle have convinced me that things are going to get worse in american politics before they get any better. After years of increasing polarization the republican party have now nominatet someone who is against a large portion of the policies of the party in elected officies. If Clinton wins in november what kind of canditate can the rebulicans nominate in 2020 that is different than the clowns they had to choose from in this cycle? Do you people think Trump has changed the party permanently from Free trade and interventionism to a more openly nationalistic, protectionist and possibly more secular direction?
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Aug 2, 2016 15:32
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FlamingLiberal posted:The polling makes it pretty clear that Johnson is going to pull a not insignificant number of people who would normally vote GOP but can't do it for Trump. This is good for Hillary. "the polling" always overestimates third party draw. Johnson polled at about 5% in 2012, drew about 1% in actual voting.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:33
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computer parts posted:Mondale got 40% of the vote. 32 years ago.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:33
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Trump getting 40% of the vote is irrelevant because this is America and not Europe, and 40% of the vote wins you nothing here.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:34
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Noam Chomsky posted:32 years ago. And the GOP has only won three elections since then (arguably two).
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Aug 2, 2016 15:35
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Bob the terrible posted:This election cycle have convinced me that things are going to get worse in american politics before they get any better. After years of increasing polarization the republican party have now nominatet someone who is against a large portion of the policies of the party in elected officies. See: Gamegate, LOLbertarians, Bitcoin.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:35
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computer parts posted:And the GOP has only won three elections since then (arguably two). k
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Aug 2, 2016 15:36
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waitwhatno posted:Eurogoon here, how the gently caress is Trump polling at ~40%? How is ~40% of your voting population ready to elect that clown? Besides what others have said, a not insignificant number of our populace is old, scared white people. They get all their news from sources as honest as Fox News while most networks are determined to equate both parties to avoid appearance of bias. As such, we get honest debates treating even well-established scientific findings like global warming as equivalent to an "expert" who claims that wind is a non-renewable resource, unlike oil. So many people don't really understand anything about politics or issues, instead just going by party loyalty or whichever seems to support their pet issues the loudest, simplest way. Some take this so far that they just assume that the parties need to trade off just to be "fair". Besides that, racism, Islamophobia, and anti-LBGT feelings are all alive and well. Some see this election as their last chance to make America turn back from what they see as a horrible future where someone other than old white people have a firm say.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:36
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Repeal the 22nd
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Aug 2, 2016 15:40
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Michelle would personally go to every state and glare at them to vote it down.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:43
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Noam Chomsky posted:This is what happens when you move all the low-skill jobs to other countries, and the remaining jobs pay poo poo, and a financial collapse wipes out even more jobs. Trump is a symptom of a huge contingent of whites who feel they have no futures so the plan is to steal the futures of others. They don't have the education necessary to see that they're just now part of the same class struggle most minorities have been a part of forever. Okay but this doesn't explain the rest of our 200+ years of naked racism. Maybe it's just the racism and not a class issue after all.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:44
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Aug 2, 2016 15:45
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Edmund Lava posted:Okay but this doesn't explain the rest of our 200+ years of naked racism. Maybe it's just the racism and not a class issue after all. It's both. The world is complicated.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:45
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waitwhatno posted:I'm not trying to imply that Europe is any less on a slow march to fascism, that's not the incomprehensible part. It's that the population is ready to hand the key to the most important office in the country to a character from the Jersey Shore. He is mentally a child, that's what gets me. He's rich, loud, and has his name on a lot of businesses. The fact that most of those have been run into the ground, he's fleeced thousands with his sham university, or that he had to start with a "small million dollar loan from dad" doesn't mean anything to those who support him. They cannot comprehend the details surrounding him and write off any mention of them as an attack. Success can only come from personal merit, therefore, he must have a lot of personal merit that others are just too jealous to admit. The real thing with Trump is that his groupies really want to be him one day. They want to be rich, powerful, and able to "tell it like it is" with no consequences. He's a caricature of what they think success sounds like because they've been well trained to see it that way by their media like talk radio. in a big scary world where problems they were assured were solved decades ago are coming to fore, someone who acts like the ultimate strongman reassuring them that their views are all correct and that he'll just crush all they fear without them having to personally change sounds like manna from Heaven. To some, Trump is the embodiment of all they have been taught to admire and truly believe that if he were in power, all would be right with the world. Besides that, good old fashioned racism fuels others. Even if they can admit that Trump doesn't know what he's doing, they like that he's willing to stick it to the uppity brown Other for daring the question the natural order of old white people having all the authority. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Aug 2, 2016 |
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Aug 2, 2016 15:46
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Geostomp posted:Besides what others have said, a not insignificant number of our populace is old, scared white people. They get all their news from sources as honest as Fox News while most networks are determined to equate both parties to avoid appearance of bias. As such, we get honest debates treating even well-established scientific findings like global warming as equivalent to an "expert" who claims that wind is a non-renewable resource, unlike oil. So many people don't really understand anything about politics or issues, instead just going by party loyalty or whichever seems to support their pet issues the loudest, simplest way. Some take this so far that they just assume that the parties need to trade off just to be "fair". I have a bunch of those old, scared white people as regulars at my work. One of them was going on about how Trump will win, including up to last Thursday before Hillary (and Khan) spoke. He refuses to move to Milwaukee, the city, instead of the suburbs because "it's a dump" and points out the bad parts of town as to why, completely ignoring suburban Milwaukee. I was really tempted to call him out and go, "Yeah, you don't want to move because you don't want to support those non-white folks, right?" but I didn't (this guy has said, "It's not racist if it's true!" without any sense of irony in the past).
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Aug 2, 2016 15:49
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emdash posted:the republican party in the US actually sold their constituents on Trump's characteristics for a number of years. In countless speeches and elections from state offices to Romney 2012, they made wealthiness, anti-political correctness, business "acumen," racism (but generally only through dogwhistles), and being a political outsider into the only virtues that mattered. But none of the GOP actually had those characteristics. That was the funniest thing ever. And then they couldn't stop him by disavowing his racism because that's PC liberal thought control, they couldn't stop him by warning his rhetoric would be poison in the general because he's just saying what everyone's thinking and Republicans only lose when they disappoint America by not being racist enough. And they couldn't even use their media empire to expose how dangerously ignorant he is about government and foreign policy because you can't trust the media, whenever you don't like what you hear on the news it's because they're making up all their so-called facts, you gotta go with your feelings. It was glorious.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:51
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Pakled posted:It's both. The world is complicated. Elements of both yes, but let's not pretend they're in equal measure. Race devide has been a part of our country since its founding. The 3/5 compromise didn't come from global trade but the view that black people were lesser. We didn't fight the bloodiest conflict (up until that point) in human history over tariffs, as some claim, but the recognition of black people as people and not property. This isn't some sudden revaluation of the downfalls of neo-liberalism, this is the end result of 240 years of American racism.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:53
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emdash posted:
Even YouGov has Clinton up several points.  Antti posted:Noteworthy also that Clinton seems to do fine to better without third parties which means that if they shrivel up as they usually do by election day she should be fine. Well she's fine if she's polling over 50 anyway, natch. Clinton could be polling at 47-48% and she'd still be fine. Trump's ceiling so far is what, 43-44%? nachos posted:Does Jill Stein herself even have a goal at this point? It's hard to imagine anyone from the Green Party even giving a poo poo at all beyond going through the motions of trotting her out every 4 years to get 1% of the vote. Jill Stein's goal is to keep Jill Stein in the spotlight. I almost wish she'd get taken seriously so she'd get properly vetted and destroyed so we'd never have to hear from/about her again.
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Aug 2, 2016 15:57
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Speaking with Fox Business anchor Stuart Varney, Donald Trump proposed spending “at least double” the $275 billion opponent Hillary Clinton has pledged to spend on American infrastructure, before suggesting that “we’ll get a fund” to pay for it. “I would say at least double her numbers, and you’re going to really need more than that,” Trump said. “We have bridges that are falling down. I don’t know if you’ve seen the warning charts, but we have many, many bridges that are in dangers of falling, and-” “Where does that money come from?” Varney interrupted. “If that’s the number you’re talking about, where do you get that money from?” “We’re going to go out with a fund - we’ll get a fund,” Trump responded airily. “We’ll make a phenomenal deal with the low interest rates, and we’re going to have to rebuild our infrastructure. We have no choice.” When twice asked who would put money into that fund, Trump suggested that “people, investors” would put money into the fund. “The citizens would put money into the fund. And we will rebuild our infrastructure with that fund and it will be a great investment and it’s going to put a lot of people to work.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:01
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Isn't that fund... basically taxes? Well, treasuries to be more specific.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:02
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Evil Fluffy posted:Jill Stein's goal is to keep Jill Stein in the spotlight. I almost wish she'd get taken seriously so she'd get properly vetted and destroyed so we'd never have to hear from/about her again.  also Jill's highest elected office has been as a town council member. it was a small town
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Aug 2, 2016 16:03
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Lid posted:Speaking with Fox Business anchor Stuart Varney, Donald Trump proposed spending “at least double” the $275 billion opponent Hillary Clinton has pledged to spend on American infrastructure, before suggesting that “we’ll get a fund” to pay for it. And when asked what kind of return someone would get on that fund, he did not answer.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:03
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Lid posted:Speaking with Fox Business anchor Stuart Varney, Donald Trump proposed spending “at least double” the $275 billion opponent Hillary Clinton has pledged to spend on American infrastructure, before suggesting that “we’ll get a fund” to pay for it. He's so bad at this. America sucks and is broke but all we need to fix it is the Americans (that have no money according to him) to finance the greatest public work project in almost over fifty years. How do you fumble around your own talking points like that; it's just embarrassing. gregday posted:And when asked what kind of return someone would get on that fund, he did not answer. I mean I would pay money to the government to have it then use that money to pay for services that I as a citizen would benefit both indirectly and directly from but that's called paying taxes.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:05
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"We'll default on it of course! Good luck repossessing a bridge once it's built, DEALZ"
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Aug 2, 2016 16:05
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emdash posted:the republican party in the US actually sold their constituents on Trump's characteristics for a number of years. In countless speeches and elections from state offices to Romney 2012, they made wealthiness, anti-political correctness, business "acumen," racism (but generally only through dogwhistles), and being a political outsider into the only virtues that mattered. But none of the GOP actually had those characteristics. It's worth noting that Bush was supposedly part of the republican party trying to reach out to Hispanic voters. Then Tom Tancredo happened. It was clear republican voters were having none of that. Now Tancredo is telling Trump to be "more artful" in his rhetoric and to "tone it down." http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/tom-tancredo-donald-trump-anti-immigrant-comments-tone-down-120044 quote:Tom Tancredo thinks Donald Trump has taken his anti-immigrant rhetoric a bit too far.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:06
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Hmm wonder if Donald Trump's plan of 10 trillion in tax cuts, $500 billion in infrastructure spending and the total elimination of the deficit is going to add up.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:08
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Edmund Lava posted:Elements of both yes, but let's not pretend they're in equal measure. Race devide has been a part of our country since its founding. The 3/5 compromise didn't come from global trade but the view that black people were lesser. We didn't fight the bloodiest conflict (up until that point) in human history over tariffs, as some claim, but the recognition of black people as people and not property. The racism has always been there. But, wouldn't you agree that almost half of the voting population's willingness to support a Nazi in all but name is an outgrowth of a general fear, real or imagined, that the future has been stolen from that half of population? Racism doesn't come from nowhere, though it's popular to believe it does. A lot of fear of the other is rooted in the other being competition for resources. This fear isn't rational and it's not even something people are necessarily cognizant of but it's there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power#Move_towards_power_.281925.E2.80.931930.29 quote:The Wall Street Crash of 1929 heralded worldwide economic disaster. The Nazis and the Communists made great gains at the 1930 Election. Both the Nazis and Communists were pledged to eliminating democracy, and between them secured over 50% of Reichstag seats, which required the moderate parties to consider negotiations with anti-democrats. "The Communists", wrote Bullock, "openly announced that they would prefer to see the Nazis in power rather than lift a finger to save the republic". When people lack opportunity, they look for someone to blame. The first people you blame is anyone different from you. Pretty common thing.
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Aug 2, 2016 16:08
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