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A 7-day heist sounds like it'd be a lot of fun right up till the first time the host crashes on day 7
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Aug 3, 2016 05:30
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Coolguye posted:yea i misread his post initially and then edited that sentence out u BUTT  I mean in the greater scheme of things, it's clear that the H&T design is entirely outmoded. Overkill has yet to go back to that style in any new heist; this has been true for quite a long time. And I think we can all agree they have better things to do than go back and rework a launch-era, fairly boring heist to begin with. What's next? Five Stores? John Murdoch posted:Let's be reasonable, there needs to some kind of standard. I certainly don't miss the bad old days of endless loving Rats runs. give a little credit to LM here, I don't think he's saying have no standards. I read it as arguing that for a PVE game with 25 levels of infamy and plenty of incentive to play at XXV-100, it doesn't really pay (heh~) to be overly tightfisted about it. That way lies Tripwire's trash fire of game design, y'know? If you look at how Overkill has treated difficulty (reward multipliers) and base pay in new heists? They're not going to go back to the Proverkill Rats Era. As coolguy said, they've clearly moderated their view on this over time. Psion fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 05:32
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It'd be cool to see them go back and attempt to clean up old content in the same way they finally went back and cleaned up old systems with the skill revamp. There is genuinely some value in that. But I also realize their manpower is limited, especially since they're not just working on Payday 2 anymore.Psion posted:give a little credit to LM here, I don't think he's saying have no standards. I read it as arguing that for a PVE game with 25 levels of infamy and plenty of incentive to play at XXV-100, it doesn't really pay (heh~) to be overly tightfisted about it. That way lies Tripwire's trash fire of game design, y'know? Several pages ago he was also advocating for Blue SWAT mode, so... Really I'm just tired of the "balance in a co-op game  " poo poo that comes up every so often. If that wasn't what he meant, then oops on my part.
John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 05:43
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Discendo Vox posted:I don't know that any of the things you've mentioned are particularly good examples of uneven payouts, especially since the implementation of the per-objective XP system. Framing Frame, possibly. Regardless, an additional pass at rebalancing payouts is planned at some point in the future. Current balance not working well is not a reason to stop trying to balance. They are - I picked those ones specifically because I know they're significant discrepancies. And seriously man, I ain't saying that they shouldn't try to balance, I'm pointing out that at current they're doing poorly. If there's going to be another pass, great! But right now poo poo like H&T is terrible for risk/reward/time, and talking about it as if it weren't is disingenuous. watho posted:"The status quo should probably change because of these reasons" Yeah, this. Good rewards for your risk/time is a good thing to strive for, but saying "There's a system" isn't justification if the system doesn't work. Tempest_56 fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 05:50
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Is this the first month in a long while we haven't had content updates around the end of one month and the beginning of the next? I know they're probably working on ironing out moding poo poo or maybe even put effort into finishing new safe houses, but It feels like its been a long time since we've had even a weapon pack or character release.
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Aug 3, 2016 05:55
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John Murdoch posted:Let's be reasonable, there needs to some kind of standard. I certainly don't miss the bad old days of endless loving Rats runs. I'm willing to agree that a standard wouldn't be unreasonable. It would probably even be desirable, since there present standard isn't really all that great. However, I'm not convinced that obligating people to spend X hours playing to achieve Y level contributes a meaningfully to the game experience. If you really want to repeatedly spam H&T runs to level in the most boring fashion possible, then so be it.
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Aug 3, 2016 05:56
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AbrahamLincolnLog posted:Bootleg + Body Expertise + Suppressor + Suppressor skills is dumb as hell but it's really effective on top of being fun as poo poo. I like to John Woo it up with a micro uzi and dual akimbo 5's. E: oh god I sat on this post a while
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Aug 3, 2016 05:58
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John Murdoch posted:Several pages ago he was also advocating for Blue SWAT mode, so... I'm serious about the SWAT mode thing. I'm not saying that Overkill ought to replace DW with it or anything, but adding it as a new mode could be interesting and enjoyable to some people. I don't think there's anything objectionable about that. I also agree that balance is important, but balancing how fast people level (and by extension, gain access to new toys)? Eh... If Overkill is going to focus its time and energy on something, I think there would be better areas to look at.
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Aug 3, 2016 06:00
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On an entirely different note I have a Broken-In Muffler (Lebensauger) and Broken-In Buckhorns (Akimbo Bernettis) which I'd love to trade for different 3-cent garbage skins. Not from the Biker heist pack, preferably. Got something, let me know. As long as it's something I don't already have, I'll trade for any other PD2 gunskin - these aren't even worth dropping on the market since I'd make two whole cents.
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Aug 3, 2016 06:11
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RandallODim posted:I like to John Woo it up with a micro uzi and dual akimbo 5's. I've really taken a liking to the akimbo 5s for the absurd stability and deep ammo pool, but the akimbo Heathers are probably slightly better. They can hit some pretty crucial breakpoints with Body Expert going that the 5s can't (without using the stability-destroying Straight Magazine). The Micro Uzi is fuckin' wonderful, though. It's easily one of the top three SMGs and is fun as all hell.
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Aug 3, 2016 06:23
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Wait, the Compact 5s are usable without the straight mag? I've always used them with it.
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Aug 3, 2016 06:27
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I'm serious about the SWAT mode thing. I'm not saying that Overkill ought to replace DW with it or anything, but adding it as a new mode could be interesting and enjoyable to some people. I don't think there's anything objectionable about that. At times you made it sound more like you wanted it to become some kind of new balance standard than its own separate difficulty mode. Though if you want my feelings on Overkill implementing a bragging rights mode even higher than Deathwish, pretty much just for you and handful of other people... quote:If Overkill is going to focus its time and energy on something, I think there would be better areas to look at. As for XP balance, the reason I brought up Rats is that some attention needs to be paid to what imbalances can do to the metagame. Some weirdo solo grinding Trustee bank all the way to XXV-100 is one thing, large swaths of the playerbase running Just Rats is another. Those kinds of problems tend to both snowball and lead to extra player burnout. We're obviously no longer in as bad a state as it was back when Rats was king, but I can't help but be skittish when people frequently mention how superior the payout is on Aftershock. I'm also wary of the Infamy Dance, a play pattern that isn't nearly as damaging to the game, but is just about written in stone nonetheless. Though considering what brought us to this conversation was, at least in part, me complaining about creaky old poo poo that Overkill could stand to fix and how random changes have made things even more messed up, I start to question the point of a progression system at all if the trend is that XP should flow freely and it's basically just down to how many times you want to infamy moreso than getting to 100 (or V-100).
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Aug 3, 2016 06:43
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yeah it's a very good point that when something is out of whack in a serious way, people do it to DEATH. me personally, i'm at 25-100 so i couldn't care less, but for the community at-large i think the biggest argument for attention to balance is "boy howdy i sure loving loved doing ukranian/rats/hoxbreak/shadow raid fifty thousand loving times in a row let's bring back THOSE days"
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Aug 3, 2016 07:11
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I uh. I never named a gun before. Much less in a game. But my Brenner is "Jolene." And she'll take your man just because she can.
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Aug 3, 2016 07:37
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I'm not sure you're aware of this, but Payday 2 is not an MMO. Talking about balance with regard to how much people should need to grind is asinine. Also this comment is really funny because all these arguments about reward structures and grind are identical to arguments I participated in back when I played an MMO. City of Heroes even had its own exaggeratedly vilified lead dev who subsequently left the project! I could also make an extremely snarky comparison between an MMO's monthly fee and Payday 2's DLC. 
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Aug 3, 2016 07:45
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John Murdoch posted:At times you made it sound more like you wanted it to become some kind of new balance standard than its own separate difficulty mode. Though if you want my feelings on Overkill implementing a bragging rights mode even higher than Deathwish, pretty much just for you and handful of other people... If I recall correctly, Overkill was at least considering a higher difficulty. It's not like demand is limited to a tiny cabal of ~~hardcore gamerz~~ Like I also said, though, I really think the best solution would be a system that lets every group tweak difficulty to their liking, if they desire to do so. quote:I start to question the point of a progression system at all if the trend is that XP should flow freely and it's basically just down to how many times you want to infamy moreso than getting to 100 (or V-100). The XP does flow pretty freely. The grind used to be horrific, and things have changed for the better. It's sufficiently easy to level that I think it's reasonable to question the importance of progression. It's pretty meaningless once you understand the basics of the game. John Murdoch posted:Also this comment is really funny because all these arguments about reward structures and grind are identical to arguments I participated in back when I played an MMO. Payday (unmodded, at least) has a number of those hallmarks. Random rewards system? Grindy XP system? And it used to be worse. Given that all these structures do is limit access to content, I really do question why they exist. Similarly, if people don't like that they have to complete an achievement to get a weapon mod, why is it okay to need to spend an arbitrary amount of time leveling up and getting card drops to get a thing that you want? If there's going to be a grind of some sort, I feel like there ought to be more ways for it to be interesting. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 07:45
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LuciferMorningstar posted:If I recall correctly, Overkill was at least considering a higher difficulty. It's not like demand is limited to a tiny cabal of ~~hardcore gamerz~~ I could be just as mistaken, but I believe they were talking about a new difficulty inbetween OVK and DW. I suppose if they made DW harder to compensate that would technically be the same thing. More to the point, I'm much more in favor of reeling in the current balance outliers and making OVK/DW more satisfying than letting DW become the new OVK and just slapping a new, even harder "This Will Really Twist Your Nipples This Time, Honest" DW+ mode on top. At that point instead of fixing problems you're fighting power creep with power creep. And as Coolguye astutely pointed out when it came up last time, if push comes to shove people will inevitably adapt to the new layer of bullshit (or however you want to characterize it) and it may very well become the new norm...what happens then? The sliders thing sounds cool and I wish more games in general used that approach. But it's also clearly not agreeable with the engine limitations we currently have, if NGR's AI problems are anything to go by. If Payday 3 proves to more mod-friendly, I could see it being a nice addition, official or not. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 07:57
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John Murdoch posted:I could be just as mistaken, but I believe they were talking about a new difficulty inbetween OVK and DW. I suppose if they made DW harder to compensate that would technically be the same thing. It was two difficulties, IIRC. One between OVK and DW, and one after DW. I also agree that adding more difficulties may be inadequate. Here's my question, though: what does it mean for Payday to be balanced? And not in a shallow sense. NGR has to do with spawn caps more than anything else. Tweaking other stats like accuracy, damage, and health should be perfectly feasible. Mutators demonstrate that it's possible in a general sense. Quite frankly, it's probably possible to mod in right now.
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Aug 3, 2016 08:17
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If Overkill is worried about H&T not paying enough, they can just add blue meth to the deposit box loot pool and call it a day.
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Aug 3, 2016 08:25
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Colosmicon posted:If Overkill is worried about H&T not paying enough, they can just add blue meth to the deposit box loot pool and call it a day. JIMMY DEMANDS COKE.
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Aug 3, 2016 08:34
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I also agree that adding more difficulties may be inadequate. Here's my question, though: what does it mean for Payday to be balanced? And not in a shallow sense. You're going to have to elaborate, because I don't really follow what you're getting at with that question. LuciferMorningstar posted:NGR has to do with spawn caps more than anything else. Tweaking other stats like accuracy, damage, and health should be perfectly feasible. Mutators demonstrate that it's possible in a general sense. Quite frankly, it's probably possible to mod in right now. Yeah, but the issues with NGR prove a point that the game as it is has limitations, limitations that may not exist in Payday 3. A mod to tweak those stats is probably feasible, though not being a modder myself my question would be whether the game can handle the granularity and the variance inherent to a slider-based system. However, ultimately, I feel like we're back to the same argument of boosting raw stats versus taking literally any other infinitely more interesting approach to raising difficulty. When I think of sliders I would want to tweak, it's less accuracy, damage, or health that I have in mind and more stuff like spawn size, respawn times, special spawn rates (including whether certain specials spawn at all), objective timers, etc. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 10:35
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I'm posting this again but anyone who wants more cops but finds NGR terrible should install this. Also I'm too lazy to go find the post about it, but whoever I told to install Lobby Inspect, you should turn it off when joining games with people off of your friends list; it seems to cause errors when doing that.
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Aug 3, 2016 10:39
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I'd like to see stealth be less binary, with a ticker or score, that increases. Say take each situation where there could be an alert is given a value - sort of like the counter in Shadowrun, where the more stuff you do, the more likely the intrusion countermeasures will trigger and you will go 'loud'. Something like using a saw unobserved on the map could be small, unslilenced gunshots could be medium, whilst an unanswered pager or watching the payday crew shoot someone could be very large. At different score levels there could be a reaction from the guard force - that's already in the game with an extra guard showing up on Framing Frame level 1 and 3 or a police cruiser arriving to check things out on Counterfeit. But expand this, so at a low trigger there is an extra guard(s) (the standby regular guard or a police cruiser shows up - no extra pagers) at a medium trigger, there is a larger response (several new police, again no pagers) and then at the limit, we get the normal go loud. The score added to the loud/not loud meter should take a little time to stack up, so if a guard sees a player, a body or a bag, it takes a few seconds for them to report in, which rapidly starts to fill the meter. That means you could quite easily shoot the guard, then run over and answer the pager, but there would be a few more guards showing up as a consequence, which you would then have to deal with. I'm sure there are other problems, notably with heists that require you to effectively start over if you go loud and in this suggestion likely with figuring out what to do with those extra spawned guards or cops without coding their pathing into each and every level, but binary stealth is silly. "OH NO, SOMONE USED A CIRCULAR SAW IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD, CALL SWAT!" vs "I think I heard something by the main gate, can you call a local patrol unit to check it out."
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Aug 3, 2016 11:07
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watho posted:Wait, the Compact 5s are usable without the straight mag? I've always used them with it. I've gotten them to 39.9 without, which is acceptable-ish. At that point it's also easily at 100 stability, which makes them buttery smooth even at mid-range. Just wave 'em around at roughly head level and it's great. If you're running on DW the straight mag is pretty mandatory though, yeah.
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Aug 3, 2016 14:21
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John Murdoch posted:You're going to have to elaborate, because I don't really follow what you're getting at with that question. We talk about balance as being desirable, but it's not always clear what standards we ought to balance toward. Some things are obvious: if there were only one particular loadout that anyone ever uses, then that would be a pretty clear indicator that some imbalances exist. If various loadouts seem equally good, we might say they're more balanced. But beyond that, what else are we looking for? What does a balanced progression system look like? A balanced difficulty system. And what makes those standards the best standards?
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Aug 3, 2016 14:27
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My favorite part of H&T stealth is the part where you lock down all the guards and you get to start throwing grenades at civilians.
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Aug 3, 2016 14:45
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For added amusement, wear the chef's hat from the BBQ pack and throw Molotovs at the civilians.
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Aug 3, 2016 14:46
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Renegret posted:For added amusement, wear the chef's hat from the BBQ pack and throw Molotovs at the civilians.
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Aug 3, 2016 15:00
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Pilgrimski posted:I'd like to see stealth be less binary, with a ticker or score, that increases. Say take each situation where there could be an alert is given a value - sort of like the counter in Shadowrun, where the more stuff you do, the more likely the intrusion countermeasures will trigger and you will go 'loud'. I always assumed that it worked like that - Bain bribes the guard control, so that they can accept bullshit excuses (i.e. EVERYTHING the crew says) for pagers going off, but 4 pagers in a short time period is the limit they can go up to before someone above them starts getting suspicious. So maybe let us bribe the guards with our own cash so the call control can squeeze in a 5th random pager. I mean at the base level this is a 4man guns out operation in an area with valuables, no matter what Heist are you playing, so a binary no alarm - alarm scenario is likely. The way I see it, maybe let the small crimes/alarms change the map a bit - nearby stores close, the civies start leaving the bank - making the heist a bit easier, but it takes time. Hell if we're talking about improving H&T I'd like to see a variant like in GO Bank - we attack during the day because there's transit in progress - start in stealth, and near the vault there's 2 Murkywaters (or similar enemies - thought of one Gensec and one Bulldozer but how do you kill a Dozer in stealth?) and the Manager, doing the moving. If you're fast and well coordinated enough, the vault never closes and it's a fast job. But fail to subdue the tellers - alarm goes off, vault closes. Fail to catch the manager - he locks himself in the vault, heist goes loud, deploy lance from the van. Add a night variant with all the doors closed, 4 moving guards and one stationary, where you have to drill anyway.
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Aug 3, 2016 15:08
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http://mpfocus.com/2016/08/02/raid-world-war-ii-interview/ Lots of detailed info on the Raid here.
Pilgrimski posted:I'd like to see stealth be less binary, with a ticker or score, that increases. Say take each situation where there could be an alert is given a value - sort of like the counter in Shadowrun, where the more stuff you do, the more likely the intrusion countermeasures will trigger and you will go 'loud'. Payday 2 maps aren't large enough or complex enough to support any of this. It would also require generalizing the design of all of the maps to accommodate the partial alert response. This is why things like check-in guards and calls from gensec are map-specific. Kikas posted:Hell if we're talking about improving H&T I'd like to see a variant like in GO Bank - we attack during the day because there's transit in progress - start in stealth, and near the vault there's 2 Murkywaters (or similar enemies - thought of one Gensec and one Bulldozer but how do you kill a Dozer in stealth?) and the Manager, doing the moving. If you're fast and well coordinated enough, the vault never closes and it's a fast job. But fail to subdue the tellers - alarm goes off, vault closes. Fail to catch the manager - he locks himself in the vault, heist goes loud, deploy lance from the van. Sidenote: all enemies are killed in one hit before they go uncool- you actually could do this to dozers in the first version of Train Heist. Tempest_56 posted:They are - I picked those ones specifically because I know they're significant discrepancies. And seriously man, I ain't saying that they shouldn't try to balance, I'm pointing out that at current they're doing poorly. If there's going to be another pass, great! But right now poo poo like H&T is terrible for risk/reward/time, and talking about it as if it weren't is disingenuous. I don't see how they're examples of significant discrepancies. H&T is meant to serve as an intermediate introduction to stealth and loud mechanics. People aren't expected to stealth it frequently at higher levels of play. The proposed changes compromise that purpose. LuciferMorningstar posted:But beyond that, what else are we looking for? What does a balanced progression system look like? A balanced difficulty system. And what makes those standards the best standards? This has been explained multiple times, by multiple people. Stop making GBS threads up the thread. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 15:38
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, you've just created an incentive for players to farm the map. Maps that can be completed much faster in stealth wind up needing to be much more complex or difficult to prevent this-the only really strong example of this being election day. Day 1 of election day represents the problem nicely- everyone rushes it in stealth. Day 2 strikes a stronger balance by being much more complex and having variable incentives- though the camera hack has layout problems. The length of the camera hack is to prevent/diminish the incentive to go loud. It's hard to remember things like that when I've hit IX - 100 a long time ago and have no desire to go further in infamy, and all I play is for fun And grind is non-existand due to Gage Coins.
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Aug 3, 2016 15:47
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Discendo Vox posted:This has been explained multiple times, by multiple people. Stop making GBS threads up the thread. You're under no obligation whatsoever to engage in this discussion if you do not desire to do so.
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Aug 3, 2016 15:51
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LuciferMorningstar posted:You're under no obligation whatsoever to engage in this discussion if you do not desire to do so. hey hey hey lucy look behind you there goes the point
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Aug 3, 2016 15:52
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Kikas posted:It's hard to remember things like that when I've hit IX - 100 a long time ago and have no desire to go further in infamy, and all I play is for fun I totally hear you on that. It's worth remembering that (cards poo poo aside), XP and money are still supposed to gate progression and work with map design to produce a learning curve. Payday 2 is still getting new players, and the game is still supposed to accommodate that. In pub servers, 1k+ players like us are genuinely rare- and we're like scary cop-slaying gods. Our experiences and gripes are no longer representative of the playerbase Overkill most needs to serve/maintain. I think dozers in stealth would work better if they didn't have the instakill effect- Death Vox sticks them in a couple places as an effective absolute fail condition for stealth, such as inside the Benevolent and FWB vaults. LuciferMorningstar posted:You're under no obligation whatsoever to engage in this discussion if you do not desire to do so. LuciferMorningstar posted:Lol. Just lol.
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Aug 3, 2016 15:56
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They should just abandon stealth(More of a next game thing) or abandon trying to make maps that does stealth and loud. They don't mesh. Shadow Raid/Meltdown is a good place to start. They get to recycle the map but without the crippling issues from mashing them together.
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Aug 3, 2016 15:59
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Coolguye posted:hey lmao
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Aug 3, 2016 16:19
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oohhboy posted:They should just abandon stealth(More of a next game thing) or abandon trying to make maps that does stealth and loud. They don't mesh. Shadow Raid/Meltdown is a good place to start. They get to recycle the map but without the crippling issues from mashing them together. This is also a good idea, if you could mesh 2 maps into one and choose the time of action in pre-planning - day is loud, night is stealth. Might not be possible/easy in the Diesel engine tho. Yes I am harping on that day/night thing but that's only because the way OVK implemented it is pretty lazy and just cosmetic, which screams "wasted potential".
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Aug 3, 2016 16:31
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I think mixed stealth and loud can work on maps, but they really have to be designed with it in mind from the beginning, and the more you accommodate objective matching, the more your overall map structure is constrained. The loosening of the skill structure builds makes carrying a mixed loadout much easier than it once was, even if it's not "optimum". Kikas posted:Yes I am harping on that day/night thing but that's only because the way OVK implemented it is pretty lazy and just cosmetic, which screams "wasted potential". Hey now, it's not just cosmetic- it can also screw you out of an achievement on Bomb: Forest! Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 16:52
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Discendo Vox posted:Hey now, it's not just cosmetic- it can also screw you out of an achievement on Bomb: Forest! I literally haven't played Bomb: Forest since they added Day/Night, I've had no idea night can happen there. I guess it means that there are no civilians, right? That sucks, that cheevo is a real bitch to get anyway, no need to get hosed out of an attempt by a coin toss. Do you still die if you run too fast downhill in a suit?
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Aug 3, 2016 17:16
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drat, saw 100+ new posts and figured there'd be new content. Did those achievements ever come back, or are they still missing?
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Aug 3, 2016 17:24
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