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HIJK posted:Would you say it made you feel...bad?
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Aug 3, 2016 16:32
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm trying to think of another film that's affected me [like Marvel's Civil War], and all I can come up with is Triumph of the Will. Yikes.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:There's an article in the Hollywood Reporter today about how Warner Bros freaked out about Suicide Squad after their teaser trailer got a huge online reaction and forced Ayer to cut the movie to be like the teaser trailer. Or they large amounts of critical venom and vocal public abuse because they don't know what they're doing and keep making bad films. There were stylistically divergent comic films in the past that were enormous critical and commercial successes, and the critically trashed WB/DC movies have frequently had very large opening box office numbers even when they've been marketed as being distinctly different from the Marvel films. The problem is that those openings are followed by substantial drops because despite high initial interest the films themselves disappoint general audiences as well as critics. The "status quo" that Marvel established and DC/WB are failing to conform with is simply a threshold for quality. e: It doesn't really matter if Suicide Squad was once brilliant art that studio execs hacked apart in an attempt to imitate Marvel's cinematic McDonalds (lol)- what matters is that they decided to make their own "cinematic junk food" and the actual meal served is apparently a failure on those terms. LGD fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 16:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am taking the same stance as Eisenstein. It seems unnecessarily limiting to say you should only do one or the other.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:51
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 16:52
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Looks fuckawesome to me.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:52
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Bright and bursting with color.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:53
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 LGD posted:DC/WB are failing to conform
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Aug 3, 2016 16:57
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Yes, it turns out that storytelling matters and if you do it right you can get people hyped for a re-creation of the 90's X-Men cartoon intro on an airport tarmac, while if you do it wrong the prettiest shots in the world will simply go to waste.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:58
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What you just quoted is the storytelling.
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Aug 3, 2016 16:59
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From what I remember from reading comics when I was eight, that's pretty comicbooky.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:02
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LGD posted:Yes, it turns out that storytelling matters and if you do it right you can get people hyped for a re-creation of the 90's X-Men cartoon intro on an airport tarmac, while if you do it wrong the prettiest shots in the world will simply go to waste. The X-Men intro had some actual energy in it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRmoy6bHUX4
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Aug 3, 2016 17:03
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LGD posted:There were stylistically divergent comic films in the past that were enormous critical and commercial successes Name some.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What you just quoted is the storytelling. Sure. But its a moment in time, a small portion of the entire whole. A sentence in a novel. Even if, as a sentence, it's incredibly beautiful and poetic it is extremely reliant on what comes before and after. A sequence of utterly banal and workmanlike statements, when combined, may lead to a far more engaging and enjoyable end result. e: Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Name some. I thought ya'll liked the Nolan films? There are also the earlier Batman/Superman films, Sin City, etc. Maybe Spiderman 1-2 though those are Marvel films. This is without considering action franchises that serve as pretty good analogues even if no one is wearing spandex- i.e. James Bond and the Fast and Furious crew. LGD fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 17:08
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Name some. I'd say there's enough Raimi in SPIDERMAN 2 to make it stand out, even though all told it wasn't that long ago. It isn't washed out for one thing, and stylistically it doesn't feel like a movie that anyone else could make. Honestly though I generally 'like' the Marvel movies, you could have anyone sat behind the Director's chair and it would feel the same.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:10
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A lot of what fucks that tarmac sequence up is how, in an attempt to get those full-team splash panel shots in there, they've made everyone move at similar paces and in similar ways. As such, it lacks that vital energy and childlike wonder that composes the good half of the "smashing your action figures together" idea, because nobody's really moving in a way that tells you anything about what kind of physical and emotional perspective they bring to the fight beyond "I can/can't fly". Instead, we're left with the bad half of smashing action figures - commoditized, interchangeable action. Ain't no kid ever told his friends "okay we've got five power rangers and five monsters, and let's bring them together real carefully... nice and easy..."
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Aug 3, 2016 17:11
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Name some. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_English-language_comics
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Aug 3, 2016 17:12
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 17:12
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So what you're saying is that what people like about these movies is the banal and the workmanlike because there's a promise of some ultimate satisfaction. I'm saying that for most people the experience of a film or book is frequently more (or less) than the sum of its parts. The banal and workmanlike frequently does lead to a greater satisfaction at the end. Elmore Leonard's sentences are very rarely beautiful taken in isolation, but they work in the context of the whole and his fiction is loving great. That's not fandom, that's an acknowledgement of how most people process these things. e: though Elmore is not the best comparison here- probably like Stephen King or JK Rowling LGD fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 17:23
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The pretentiousness is palpable.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:25
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LGD posted:I'm saying that for most people the experience of a film or book is frequently more (or less) than the sum of its parts. The banal and workmanlike frequently does lead to a greater satisfaction at the end. Elmore Leonard's sentences are very rarely beautiful taken in isolation, but they work in the context of the whole and his fiction is loving great. That's not fandom, that's an acknowledgement of how most people process these things. So what you're saying is that Marvel hasn't actually set the threshold for quality, just audience response.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:27
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Not actually the final shot from the film.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:36
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PriorMarcus posted:Not actually the final shot from the film. Yeah, it's not really fair.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So what you're saying is that Disney/Marvel hasn't actually set the threshold for quality, just audience response. If wide audiences (and critics, who are ostensible "gatekeepers") keep responding favorably to their output I'm not sure what else you'd call it other than consistent quality? You can argue that its insufficiently edifying, but again even if we concede that it's all cinematic McDonalds that means they're producing stuff that people consistently like. If people generally like WB/DC's offerings less than CineMcDonalds regardless of whether it's a deconstructed gourmet offering (lmao) or their own attempt at fast food that's not really something that that reflects badly on CineMcDonalds, especially when those offerings are explicitly aimed at the same audience and are trying to compete on the same terms.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:43
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LGD posted:If wide audiences (and critics, who are ostensible "gatekeepers") keep responding favorably to their output I'm not sure what else you'd call it other than consistent quality? Popularity. McDonalds food, for example, is popular but not good.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:45
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If the best you can come up with is a positive comparison to McDonald's then maybe you should consider the sparseness of your footing
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Aug 3, 2016 17:48
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LGD posted:If wide audiences (and critics, who are ostensible "gatekeepers") keep responding favorably to their output I'm not sure what else you'd call it other than consistent quality? You can argue that its insufficiently edifying, but again even if we concede that it's all cinematic McDonalds that means they're producing stuff that people consistently like. If people generally like WB/DC's offerings less than CineMcDonalds regardless of whether it's a deconstructed gourmet offering (lmao) or their own attempt at fast food that's not really something that that reflects badly on CineMcDonalds, especially when those offerings are explicitly aimed at the same audience and are trying to compete on the same terms. I think part of what's leading you to go around in circles with Bravest here is that, at least that I've seen, you haven't really been talking about what makes them good movies other than the most backhanded poo poo. They're good because a lot of people like them. Okay, why do those people like them? They're good because they're more than the sum of their workmanlike parts. Okay, what's present in the sum that's absent in the parts? And so on Throw us a bone here, else it's gonna be infinite purposeless CineD recursion town
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Aug 3, 2016 17:48
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Marvel's success isn't that hard. They create characters that people like to watch and they make movies that are an enjoyable, well made and coherent two hours at the flicks. Then they just double down on it. Like the poo poo that people talk about on here like shot composition or how the movie is really about blah blah blah simply does not matter to the majority of the audience. That's not saying they're dumb or anything like that, because they're not, but they're simply not thinking about that. Eventually the fatigue will set in, but Marvel's success isn't really all that much of a mystery.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:54
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Civil War is a Captain America movie that's not about America or being American. The Dark Knight is a movie about a fairskinned man who has not been knighted by royalty.
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Aug 3, 2016 17:58
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DrVenkman posted:Marvel's success isn't that hard. They create characters that people like to watch and they make movies that are an enjoyable, well made and coherent two hours at the flicks. Except even this is just chock full of assumptions that you're glossing over. Why do people like to watch their characters? Why do they enjoy the overall movies? What does it mean for them to be well-made? "Coherent" is probably the most substantial point here, the idea being that Marvel's movies are easier to follow and their competitors don't have payoffs good enough to warrant the extra effort in following their less coherent stuff I wanna stress that like, I'm not trying to do some gotcha poo poo here and be like "nuh-uh, people don't actually like their characters!" It's just silly how positive discussion of MCU stuff boils down so often to "people like them because they're good, and they're good because they're good". If making a global franchise this popular and financial successful was as simple as "make things that people want to watch", it'd be harder for execs at other studios to step over all these goddamn rakes as reliably as they do
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Aug 3, 2016 18:09
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:The Dark Knight is a movie about a fairskinned man who has not been knighted by royalty. Triumph Of The Will never once shows Will being triumphant. Poor Will 
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Aug 3, 2016 18:13
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The vast majority of people who clamor to watch marvel movies are literal children. Most adults don't give a poo poo about them and only buy the ticket to see it with their kids. Kids enjoy them because they have no frame of reference as to what a well shot, well characterized movie looks or sounds like. An appeal to populism is not a road you want to go down.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:15
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quote:Kids enjoy them because they have no frame of reference as to what a well shot, well characterized movie looks or sounds like. You say that as if most adults do.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:17
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mr. stefan posted:The vast majority of people who clamor to watch marvel movies are literal children. Most adults don't give a poo poo about them and only buy the ticket to see it with their kids. Kids enjoy them because they have no frame of reference as to what a well shot, well characterized movie looks or sounds like. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Popularity.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:19
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:The Dark Knight is a movie about a fairskinned man who has not been knighted by royalty. This is a dumb non-sequitor. Being about America is one of the basic functions of Captain America's character. It's like how Batman is a vigilante, or Superman is an alien saviour. LGD posted:McDonalds is not popular for popularity's sake, it is popular because it provides a product of a certain consistent quality at a low price. We're not comparing McDonalds to a small hole in the wall restaurant serving gourmet cuisine here, we're comparing it to a well funded competitor who has opened a competing franchise, advertised it heavily to exactly the same people who patronize McDonalds, and gotten huge numbers of them to try its products when they're introduced. The general consensus of people who have tried those products is that they meals are uneven and generally substantially less enjoyable than what McDonalds gives you. You may personally be a Burger King guy, but ranting about how McDonalds has set expectations about the fast food market that make it impossible for anyone else to compete while simultaneously maintaining that McDonalds' products are devoid of quality is asinine in the extreme. If the latter is true how did they take such commanding control of the market? And if BK's products are made of such high quality ingredients, and are so nutritious, and they still cost the same why do people generally still favor McDonalds? They're clearly willing to try BK, so that would seem to suggest something else is going on. What's buried under the market place terminology is a simple appeal to popularity, and reduction of art into commodity. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 18:20
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LGD posted:McDonalds is not popular for popularity's sake, it is popular because it provides a product of a certain consistent quality at a low price. We're not comparing McDonalds to a small hole in the wall restaurant serving gourmet cuisine here, we're comparing it to a well funded competitor who has opened a competing franchise, advertised it heavily to exactly the same people who patronize McDonalds, and gotten huge numbers of them to try its products when they're introduced. The general consensus of people who have tried those products is that they meals are uneven and generally substantially less enjoyable than what McDonalds gives you. You may personally be a Burger King guy, but ranting about how McDonalds has set expectations about the fast food market that make it impossible for anyone else to compete while simultaneously maintaining that McDonalds' products are devoid of quality is asinine in the extreme. If the latter is true how did they take such commanding control of the market? And if BK's products are made of such high quality ingredients, and are so nutritious, and they still cost the same why do people generally still favor McDonalds? They're clearly willing to try BK, so that would seem to suggest something else is going on. This is super lame because it just keeps on going and still manages to say nothing about what makes the MCU good mr. stefan posted:The vast majority of people who clamor to watch marvel movies are literal children. Most adults don't give a poo poo about them and only buy the ticket to see it with their kids. Kids enjoy them because they have no frame of reference as to what a well shot, well characterized movie looks or sounds like. This is also incredibly lame
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Aug 3, 2016 18:20
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RBA Starblade posted:You say that as if most adults do. They also aren't actively going to movies, either. Theater attendance has been dropping across the board for years, after all.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:22
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RBA Starblade posted:You say that as if most adults do. Ya. I don't agree with that thing the guy said about everyone just being dumb, but a better comparison would be the wild success of like the Transformers films. Most people say those suck but their box office points to high quality if we're seriously using that as a metric. I can't really comment because I haven't seen them tho.
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Aug 3, 2016 18:24
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 18:24
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