The Trek Cycle (and 'Beyond'!)

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Mae: Aug 1, 2010; Supesudandi wa, kukan-nai no dandidesu

Vitamin P posted:

I really liked how in this one the cast didn't look as beautiful as they have in the others.

I think the most striking thing about watching Into Darkness was Chris Pine's bizarre lip gloss

# ? Aug 2, 2016 23:56

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 23:29

ManSedan: May 7, 2006; Seats 4

Is this where we can talk about the other films, too? Cause I've been burning though the movies available on Amazon Prime and The Undiscovered Country is such a better movie than Final Frontier was.
Especially how David's death, and how it weighs on Kirk. Star Trek V ends with Kirk having a dinner party with the Klingons; VI opens with Kirk declaring the Federation should just let the Klingons die out for what they did to his son.
Also Khitomer is the same building as the Power Rangers base.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 13:35

LesterGroans: Jun 9, 2009; It's funny...

You were so scary at night.

Yeah, I rewatched all of the original films up to Generations (and threw in Galaxy Quest) and The Undiscovered Country is much better than Final Frontier. It's maybe a pass or two on the script away from being great and up there with Wrath of Khan.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 15:27

The Golden Gael: Nov 12, 2011

LesterGroans posted:

Yeah, I rewatched all of the original films up to Generations (and threw in Galaxy Quest) and The Undiscovered Country is much better than Final Frontier. It's maybe a pass or two on the script away from being great and up there with Wrath of Khan.

I would go so far as to say it's more easily rewatchable. Don't get me wrong, I love the Khan movie, but it still has a lot of cheesy early 80s filmmaking techniques to it that can make me squirm. The Undiscovered Country on the other hand only feels dated because I'm watching a bunch of seniors play the same role they were playing at that point for 25 years.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 15:53

Alan_Shore: Dec 2, 2004

korusan posted:

I would go so far as to say it's more easily rewatchable. Don't get me wrong, I love the Khan movie, but it still has a lot of cheesy early 80s filmmaking techniques to it that can make me squirm. The Undiscovered Country on the other hand only feels dated because I'm watching a bunch of seniors play the same role they were playing at that point for 25 years.

I'm curious: what techniques make you squirm?

# ? Aug 3, 2016 16:25

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

ManSedan posted:

Is this where we can talk about the other films, too? Cause I've been burning though the movies available on Amazon Prime and The Undiscovered Country is such a better movie than Final Frontier was.

The Final Frontier is great and I will fight anyone who disagrees.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 17:44

Apollodorus: Feb 13, 2010; TEST YOUR MIGHT

Senor Tron posted:

I have a new head-canon which makes the motivations a lot more clear.

I don't think that's "head-canon" I think that's simply a very reasonable interpretation of what is clearly shown on screen, and you've explained it well.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 18:22

The Cameo: Jan 20, 2005

Nicholas Meyer has been the best thing that ever happened to Star Trek movies and it's amazing how he has managed to cast such a shadow over the franchise as a whole that they're still, to this day, chasing the impact of Khan.

I mean, I give Paramount credit for recognizing you could not possibly do The Voyage Home more than once and not come off as a gaggle of idiots for trying.

But between II, IV, and VI, he has to be considered the golden goose of the series.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 18:23

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

The Cameo posted:

But between II, IV, and VI, he has to be considered the golden goose of the series.

Yes and no. I think a bit too much credit gets placed on Meyer's shoulders -- yes, he wrote the script for II in twelve days or whatever, but he had Bob Sallin right next to him every day of shooting on the movie. And The Undiscovered Country, while relatively well-directed, has a script with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the skull, to say nothing of how his behavior during the making of it basically destroyed his relationship with Nimoy.

Conversely, I don't think Harve Bennett gets nearly enough credit. He shifted the production of the second movie to the television division in order to control costs, and assembled an efficient crew that was able to get things done on-time and under-budget. Really, the only knock on him was that he didn't negotiate aggressively enough with ILM to do the effects for V (and I've always been of the opinion that ILM's "we're too busy" excuse was due to a lack of desire / getting lowballed as opposed to not having the resources, because it's not like they weren't used to juggling a half-dozen projects at once at that point).

# ? Aug 3, 2016 18:44

egon_beeblebrox: Mar 1, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Timby posted:

Yes and no. I think a bit too much credit gets placed on Meyer's shoulders -- yes, he wrote the script for II in twelve days or whatever, but he had Bob Sallin right next to him every day of shooting on the movie. And The Undiscovered Country, while relatively well-directed, has a script with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the skull, to say nothing of how his behavior during the making of it basically destroyed his relationship with Nimoy.

Conversely, I don't think Harve Bennett gets nearly enough credit. He shifted the production of the second movie to the television division in order to control costs, and assembled an efficient crew that was able to get things done on-time and under-budget. Really, the only knock on him was that he didn't negotiate aggressively enough with ILM to do the effects for V (and I've always been of the opinion that ILM's "we're too busy" excuse was due to a lack of desire / getting lowballed as opposed to not having the resources, because it's not like they weren't used to juggling a half-dozen projects at once at that point).

What'd Meyer do to Nimoy?

# ? Aug 3, 2016 19:15

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

egon_beeblebrox posted:

What'd Meyer do to Nimoy?

Cross-posting from a big effortpost I made in the TV IV thread:

quote:

For background, Meyer and Nimoy hashed out the story at Meyer's beach house; Nimoy opened by asking Meyer, "How would you like to tell a story about the Wall coming down in space?" That sold Meyer, and they walked up and down the beach all day just breaking down the story beat-by-beat. They then went their separate ways, with Meyer intending to write the script with Denny Martin Flinn, his longtime friend.

However, there was a massive power struggle going on at Paramount. Frank Mancuso, Paramount's president, had reached out to Nimoy to spearhead the movie after Gulf + Western chief Martin Davis raised the mother of all fits over Harve Bennett's plan to do the Starfleet Academy movie for the 25th anniversary. However, there were a couple of other Paramount executives -- Sid Ganis, who was the head of the movie studio, and his lieutenant, Teddy Zee -- who were actively campaigning to get Mancuso replaced, and so they brought out Lawrence Konner and Mark Rosenthal, the writers of noted cinematic classic Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, telling Nimoy and Meyer that they had this exciting young writing team and they would just love it if they would meet with them. Nimoy wanted no part of it because he immediately smelled studio politics, and Meyer was reticent because it was already starting to reek of what happened on Star Trek IV (he and Bennett lost WGA arbitration on IV and had to share script credit with Steve Meerson and Peter Krikes, the guys who wrote the Eddie Murphy draft that was tossed), but he decided he would meet with these two bobos as a courtesy. Here's where things started to get ugly.

In their meeting, Meyer brought the entire, detailed outline that he and Nimoy had created that day on the beach, as well as some early script pages, and basically handed everything over to them. They came back a few weeks later and had literally plagiarized the entire thing (just changing the words, basically) and put their names on it. Though they were fired shortly thereafter, Nimoy was furious, later saying "I wanted to kill the son of a bitch (Meyer)," and it only got worse during post-production when he lost WGA arbitration and the credits were going to read "Story by Konner and Rosenthal, script by Meyer and Flinn" -- because while Nimoy and Meyer had hashed out the entire story, it was just written down in a notebook, while Konner and Rosenthal turned in their outline as an official document with their names on it, which carries pretty big weight with the WGA. Nimoy hit the roof, called his lawyer and said that if it weren't resolved over the course of the weekend, he was personally going to sue the WGA, Paramount, Konner, Rosenthal and Meyer. At the eleventh hour they finally agreed on "Story by Nimoy, Konner and Rosenthal, script by Meyer and Flinn."

There were also some arguments during filming. Nimoy was one of the people uncomfortable with some of the racially charged tones of the script (not to the extent that Nichols and Brock Peters were, but he was still bothered by it), and he fought tooth and nail against the mind-rape scene, which wasn't in the shooting script -- as written, after Valeris reveals the conspirators, Kirk asks where the peace conference is, there's a two-second beat and Spock calmly says she doesn't know and that they should contact Excelsior. Nimoy felt that there was no way Spock would violate his principles like that, but Meyer overruled him. Lots of little fights like that added up and much like how The Voyage Home wrecked Nimoy's relationship with Bennett, Undiscovered Country almost totally destroyed his friendship with Meyer.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 19:23

lizardman: Jun 30, 2007; by R. Guyovich

^^ Where do you get all this? That's absolutely the first I've heard of a Nimoy / Meyer beef. I've heard some rumblings from internet posters of some drama going down behind the scenes of VI (at one point Shatner throwing a script at Meyer on set, according to a particularly scandalous account) but have never found any reliable source about it anywhere.

It's not that I don't beleive you, it's just genuinely eyebrow-raising for me to hear 'new' dirt on movies I felt I'd read up on pretty darn well.

Personally, from what I've seen Nicholas Meyer is a cool guy in a lot of ways but at times he does seem up his own rear end and I can definitely see him rubbing folks the wrong way.

The Cameo posted:

I mean, I give Paramount credit for recognizing you could not possibly do The Voyage Home more than once and not come off as a gaggle of idiots for trying.

Well, except for those times they did try to recapture The Voyage Home spirit: The Final Frontier, Insurrection, and now Beyond. Basically, when they're not chasing TWOK they're chasing TVH.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 20:05

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

lizardman posted:

^^ Where do you get all this? That's absolutely the first I've heard of a Nimoy / Meyer beef. I've heard some rumblings from internet posters of some drama going down behind the scenes of VI (at one point Shatner throwing a script at Meyer on set, according to a particularly scandalous account) but have never found any reliable source about it anywhere.

It's not that I don't beleive you, it's just genuinely eyebrow-raising for me to hear 'new' dirt on movies I felt I'd read up on pretty darn well.

Starlog, Cinefex and CFQ from the time, Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories (it's generally full of poo poo, but the direct quotes are from the people themselves like Meyer and Nimoy, so they're reliable), Meyer's View from the Bridge, Nimoy's own books, stuff that the Cinefex writer for Undiscovered Country was told but wasn't germane to the article but was still in his notes.

quote:

Personally, from what I've seen Nicholas Meyer is a cool guy in a lot of ways but at times he does seem up his own rear end and I can definitely see him rubbing folks the wrong way.

Meyer is basically a "my way or the highway" guy, and he's also prone to a lot of revisionist history -- View from the Bridge has a ton of factually inaccurate stuff in it (probably just because he's forgotten how it all went down) and he's done his best to say over the years that he was the real creator of The Wrath of Khan, despite Bennett, Sallin and others keeping a tight leash on him and overriding him on multiple occasions.

# ? Aug 3, 2016 20:27

Mortanis: Dec 28, 2005; It's your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight.; College Slice

Timby posted:

The Final Frontier is great and I will fight anyone who disagrees.

OG Star Trek is defined by the interactions between the crew, especially Kirk/Spock/Bones, and therefore Star Trek V is one of the best Trek movies out there simply because those three play so drat well off each other in that movie. I have a love for Final Frontier that most find insane.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 00:11

LesterGroans: Jun 9, 2009; It's funny...

You were so scary at night.

Mortanis posted:

OG Star Trek is defined by the interactions between the crew, especially Kirk/Spock/Bones, and therefore Star Trek V is one of the best Trek movies out there simply because those three play so drat well off each other in that movie. I have a love for Final Frontier that most find insane.

It definitely has one of the best lines in the entire franchise.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 00:15

RaspberrySea: Nov 29, 2004

Final Frontier definitely gets more flack than it deserves. I really liked Sybok at least. The part where he asks God "Why have you done this to my friend?" after Kirk gets zapped really sold me on him. Dude really think he's trying to do good, and immediately follows through on sacrificing himself to save his buddies.

But with Kirk's line at the end "I lost a brother once. But I was lucky, I got him back" is such a burn on his actual dead brother, it ends on a sour note for me.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 00:49

Timby: Dec 23, 2006; Your mother!

Mortanis posted:

OG Star Trek is defined by the interactions between the crew, especially Kirk/Spock/Bones, and therefore Star Trek V is one of the best Trek movies out there simply because those three play so drat well off each other in that movie. I have a love for Final Frontier that most find insane.

It has the second-best score of the entire series ("The Mountain" might be the best cue Goldsmith ever wrote), Shatner directed the hell out of it and actually knew how to move a camera (as opposed to Nimoy's "let's just do two-shots and call it a day" approach), Andy Laszlo's photography is incredible and considering that David Loughery had literally a month to write the script, it's a miracle that it turned out as well as it did.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 01:19

Zapp Brannigan: Mar 29, 2006; we have an irc channel at #SA_MeetingWomen

MorgaineDax posted:

Final Frontier definitely gets more flack than it deserves. I really liked Sybok at least. The part where he asks God "Why have you done this to my friend?" after Kirk gets zapped really sold me on him. Dude really think he's trying to do good, and immediately follows through on sacrificing himself to save his buddies.

But with Kirk's line at the end "I lost a brother once. But I was lucky, I got him back" is such a burn on his actual dead brother, it ends on a sour note for me.

He has a dead brother? I can't find anything about this.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:43

Automatic Slim: Jul 1, 2007

Kirk's real brother Sam was killed by the flying pancake invasion seen in "Operation: Annihilate!"

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:11

Jose Oquendo: Jun 20, 2004; Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a boring movie

Does Sybok survive the destruction of Vulcan in the new timeline?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 19:51

Zapp Brannigan: Mar 29, 2006; we have an irc channel at #SA_MeetingWomen

Automatic Slim posted:

Kirk's real brother Sam was killed by the flying pancake invasion seen in "Operation: Annihilate!"

Oh for gently caress's sake, I thought he was talking about Shatner's brother. I am an idiot.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 20:06

Automatic Slim: Jul 1, 2007

Jose Oquendo posted:

Does Sybok survive the destruction of Vulcan in the new timeline?

Let's hope not.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 20:16

ManSedan: May 7, 2006; Seats 4

But V'Ger and the whales are still coming!

# ? Aug 4, 2016 20:48

Rhyno: Mar 22, 2003; Can't post for 10 years!

ManSedan posted:

But V'Ger and the whales are still coming!

I think one of the comics has Spock dealing with a few things like that.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 20:56

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

Rhyno posted:

I think one of the comics has Spock dealing with a few things like that.

I think it would be hilarious if after they defrosted Khan he said,"Where are the whales? Extinct? But they're the ones who communicate with the giant space cigar you idiots!" and then he'd fixed everything off-screen.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 23:11

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

I kinda want JJTrek 4 to be about them meeting the whale probe on its way to Earth and exploring it and its purpose and origins. A counterpart story to The Voyage Home.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 23:50

Senor Tron: May 26, 2006

MikeJF posted:

I kinda want JJTrek 4 to be about them meeting the whale probe on its way to Earth and exploring it and its purpose and origins. A counterpart story to The Voyage Home.

Nah, that probe was one of the truly alien things in the franchise, would be better left mysterious.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 01:33

Automatic Slim: Jul 1, 2007

Hasn't Thor has been confirmed for JJTrek 4? Kirk is going to meet his father.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 02:44

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

Automatic Slim posted:

Hasn't Thor has been confirmed for JJTrek 4? Kirk is going to meet his father.

Ah, .about time for a "Contact" reboot.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 03:19

The Golden Gael: Nov 12, 2011

Alan_Shore posted:

I'm curious: what techniques make you squirm?

A couple of shots by virtue of when they were filmed seem particularly dated. The one that comes freshest to mind is when they do the closeup of Chekov's ear and you can tell it's a big fake one because of how it was spliced.

Also I love Nick Meyer but it's annoying that a big chunk of his bad guys lines are just quoting old literature. This applies to TUC too.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 04:35

Rhyno: Mar 22, 2003; Can't post for 10 years!

Automatic Slim posted:

Hasn't Thor has been confirmed for JJTrek 4? Kirk is going to meet his father.

I know it's been announced but I can't find any confirmation that Hemsworth has actually signed on.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 04:43

Chairman Capone: Dec 17, 2008

Rhyno posted:

I think one of the comics has Spock dealing with a few things like that.

Doesn't one of the comics involve Q bringing the Abramsverse crew into the future to join with Sisko and the DS9 crew during the Dominion War?

I have no idea of the quality of the Abramsverse tie-in comics but I admire their willingness to do weird things. Although I guess this isn't new for Star Trek comics, since I know they did crossovers in the past with X-Men, Planet of the Apes, and Green Lantern too.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 04:54

Farmer Crack-Ass: Jan 2, 2001; this is me posting irl

korusan posted:

I hear a lot of complaints that Quinto is a passive aggressive rear end in a top hat in the new movies as if it's out of character for Spock. Really, the guy's always been a bit of a prick - I remember the episode That Which Survives with the purple sky planet and hologram lady was one particular instance on the show, and his entire introduction in The Motion Picture oozes Vulcan tryhardship.

Part of the whole point of Spock in TMP is that he's being a complete tryhard. He went off to Vulcan to try and expunge his emotions completely.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 05:19

Rhyno: Mar 22, 2003; Can't post for 10 years!

Chairman Capone posted:

Doesn't one of the comics involve Q bringing the Abramsverse crew into the future to join with Sisko and the DS9 crew during the Dominion War?

I have no idea of the quality of the Abramsverse tie-in comics but I admire their willingness to do weird things. Although I guess this isn't new for Star Trek comics, since I know they did crossovers in the past with X-Men, Planet of the Apes, and Green Lantern too.

This is correct. The IDW books have ranged from fair to terrible but they're light years better than the 90's Marvel stuff. I think the best Trek comics ever published was the Malibu DS9 series.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 05:33

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Automatic Slim posted:

Hasn't Thor has been confirmed for JJTrek 4? Kirk is going to meet his father.

If I were writing 4 and had a studio mandate to include Hemsworth, I'd have the movie flashing between the Kelvin and the Enterprise, encountering the same alien mystery thing 30 years apart. Kirk has to comb through his dad's logs to figure out how to get the Enterprise out of a deadly situation etc.

The cliches write themselves. Kirk discovers the kind of man his dad was. He grows and manages to figure out the alien mystery his father never did. We discover destroying shirts is hereditary. At the end of the past storyline Winona tells George she's pregnant. Etc.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Aug 5, 2016

# ? Aug 5, 2016 06:46

Automatic Slim: Jul 1, 2007

I thought it would be James T. finding George in a Klingon prison camp. There was bunch of cut scenes in the first JJTrek that Nero's ship was captured by the Klingons. Sure it's a recon of his demise, but this is a completely stupid any way idea anyway.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 07:15

Drink-Mix Man: Mar 4, 2003; You are an odd fellow, but I must say... you throw a swell shindig.

I'm gonna go with maybe-maybe-not-but-probably alien assuming George Kirk's form.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 07:22

Winifred Madgers: Feb 12, 2002

The Guardian of Forever leads Kirk to his father just before Nero comes through the wormhole, to correct the timeline and erase the JJverse. A certain segment of the fandom hails it as the greatest movie ever made.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 13:01

WampaLord: Jan 14, 2010

MikeJF posted:

At the end of the past storyline Winona tells George she's pregnant.

Winona was Spock's mom, Kirk's mom was Cameron from House.

# ? Aug 5, 2016 14:16

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 23:29

The Golden Gael: Nov 12, 2011

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Part of the whole point of Spock in TMP is that he's being a complete tryhard. He went off to Vulcan to try and expunge his emotions completely.

I actually watched That Which Survives last night again. He's not cold like he is in TMP (downright icy in that one) but he's full of sarcastic quips and pedantic "you were off by 0.0003 please be more accurate" comments to everyone. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Enterprise lunch room in that one - "wow, for a guy who says he's free of emotion Spock sure is a goony prick".

What did SuperMechaGodzilla think of this movie I wonder? Right now I'm positive it's on equal footing with 2009 for me personally - but not having seen it a second time I don't know if it has the same visceral depth that one has.

The Golden Gael fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Aug 5, 2016

# ? Aug 5, 2016 14:26

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