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You know what grinds my gears? When people make internet arguments about weapon effectiveness based on 9th grade, ke=1/2mv^2 physics.
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Aug 3, 2016 23:23
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P-Mack posted:You know what grinds my gears? When people make internet arguments about weapon effectiveness based on 9th grade, ke=1/2mv^2 physics. this, but when people use a flat featureless plain as a default in theoretical engagements
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Aug 3, 2016 23:27
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Ah, yes, the "perfectly spherical Roman legions in a vacuum" school. 
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Aug 3, 2016 23:28
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Or the "Tiger tank in field flat and featureless as a billiard ball table" college.
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Aug 3, 2016 23:37
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Wounding factors is pretty contentious over the years so I don't want to get too TFR so I'll just summarize. For years, there was this notion of "stopping power," that some rounds could just dump enough energy into a person to kill him regardless of where they hit. Then came actual research, involving among other things shooting a bunch of different bullets into a bunch of pigs. For years the definitive authority was taken to be Dr. Martin Fackler, who concluded that stopping power is a myth, and that rapid stops are achieved in two ways: penetrate to vital organs like the brain and make them stop working, or penetrate to large blood vessels and cause them to start leaking a lot. Note that both of these require penetration, and it's based on his research that the FBI adopted a standard that for a handgun to be suitable as an issued weapon it needed to be capable of penetrating such-and-such inches in ballistic gelatin. More recently it's been seen that Fackler either misrepresented or outright acted to conceal opposing data, and more recent research has indicated that a round of sufficient velocity can when it strikes impart an overpressure wave into the blood system, and this overpressure can cause fluid percussion injury to the CNS even if the bullet strikes nowhere near the brain. This is the kind of thing that generates flame wars among certain groups, so again, I'm just touching on this here. But to sum up the summing up: it's very complicated and people are weird. xthetenth posted:The funniest bit is that the first place they should look is the barrel length rather than throwing the whole damned thing out and adding yet another caliber It's not that simple, either, there are also deficiencies in training and doctrine. Good paper on the topic: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a512331.pdf
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Aug 3, 2016 23:40
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Cyrano4747 posted:Past that a lot of it comes down to psychological factors. The effects of weapons on the human body is some freaky poo poo. Some people will get shot absolutely to ribbons and keep fighting (MOH citations are good places to see this in action) while others will be combat ineffective after a relatively minor injury. This part of it isn't all that well understood , even now. IIRC the light & fast bullets we are talking about like 5.56 are tied up in this, since high enough velocity bullets can kill people via hydrostatic shock (essentially where the suction effect pf the bullet entering the body causes things like ruptured blood vessels and brain haemorrhages), something that is still relatively poorly understood.
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Aug 3, 2016 23:41
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I just had a disturbing thought. What if this myth persists simply because it is easier to remember the bullshit rather than explain it. This might explain a lot of things with these kind of myths.
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Aug 3, 2016 23:43
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my dad posted:Ah, yes, the "perfectly spherical Roman legions in a vacuum" school. 
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Aug 3, 2016 23:45
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If I want to do effort posts about carriers, none of you lot care if I do it in order, right?SeanBeansShako posted:I just had a disturbing thought. Knowing things provides dopamine. Doesn't need to be true. So absent a motivating force towards correctness, the simplest explanation wins.
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Aug 3, 2016 23:55
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Ataxerxes posted:The book is titled: Y'all should know that Mr. Lemminkäinen was a real Casanova who stole the beautiful Kyllikki of Saari as his wife. Kyllikki promised not to go to the village to party, and in return Lemminkäinen promised not to go to war. Kyllikki, that slut, however went to the village and then got murdered, only to return as "Nyrkki-Kyllikki", a ghost who comforts all lonely men. Then Lemminkäinen went onto quests and died, and her mother had to sew him together from body parts like some Frankenstein's monster. Finally he settled down and started a construction company that was involved in cartels and stuff. Or... well, actually what I meant to say is Lemminkäinen was his nom de plume, his real name was Janne Jernvall. Jernvall meaning Iron Wall is quite fitting soldier's name, I think. Better than Loverguy, anyways. SeanBeansShako posted:I like the board game/cards the Napoleonic era soldier has on him. I'm the morning star in 1916. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 00:01
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Nebakenezzer posted:That's an old Revell kit, the USS Lionfish. It is still available today. It's a extremely odd scale (Revell made its old ship models to a certain box size rather than standard scales) and scorned by fancy modellists because it's not modern in its detailing, but you can still get it. That is awesome to know! Thank you very much. Some of the parts are looking a bit tatty, it's great to know that they're replaceable. The paint is crackling and flaking in spots, and the diving planes are stuck in place, I was hoping to restore it. HEY GAL posted:but enough about Ottavio Piccolomini Tee hee! Suspect Bucket fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 00:05
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100 Years Ago 29 July: I'm inordinately proud to have worked in a direct and suitable reference to that grand moment of high culture "when Father Ted kicked Bishop Brennan up the arse". Of course it's all about Pozieres windmill today, where attacks fail and General Haig covers himself in the opposite of glory by totally misunderstanding the command situation and then personally berating ANZAC commander General Birdwood for something that is pretty much in no way his fault. It also happens that this coincides with yet another battle beginning in the Caucasus, which has provided an opportunity to finally work in my metaphor of a pikeman to depict how an army's fighting strength is strongly concentrated at one end of a relatively vulnerable supply line. Louis Barthas's funny story about the blokes finding wine turns quickly horrible; Neil Fraser-Tytler celebrates his birthday with a five-course lunch (with champagne, natch) and a visit from his brother; E.S. Thompson hears the rumours; Edward Mousley has finally completed his journey from Kut to Kastamonu; and Maximilian Mugge receives heartening news of a trouble-making Irish MP. 30 July: The ears are senseless that should give us hearing to tell his commandment is fulfilled; that Maurepas and Guillemont are dead. Flows so nicely, doesn't it? Shame neither of them were declared villages that died for France. Yesterday's birthday boy Fraser-Tytler is faced with a task straight out of the very depths of Hell; Wully Robertson puts some cromulent questions to the Chief on behalf of the government; French intelligence is very optimistic; there's a very minor development in Persia; some rotter plays a prank on E.S. Thompson's mates; Emilio Lussu meets an old crony who appears to have excused himself clothes; and idiot son of a Montreal millionaire Clifford Wells might, might just have successfully calibrated Baby's First Bullshit Detector.
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Aug 4, 2016 00:11
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SeanBeansShako posted:I just had a disturbing thought. I think this is probably true, yeah. I run into it a lot with science stuff, which is a thing I'm actually qualified to correct people on
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Aug 4, 2016 00:21
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Suspect Bucket posted:Tee hee! try it yourself, look one of them up
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Aug 4, 2016 00:25
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HEY GAL posted:almost every single general of this war looks like he's going harrumph in his pictures I dunno, this guy looks like he's trying not to laugh. Like his kids are in the back of the artist giving him bunny ears or something.
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Aug 4, 2016 00:47
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HEY GAL posted:almost every single general of this war looks like he's going harrumph in his pictures at some point roman emperors also wanted to look grumpy in their statues
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Aug 4, 2016 00:58
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WALLENSTEIN: I didn't get a harrumph outta that guy! TILLY: Give the generalissimo a harrumph! STETER: ...Harrumph? WALLENSTEIN: You watch your rear end.
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Aug 4, 2016 01:05
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago I'm loving the sheer unpredictability of Emilio Lussu's stories, you just never know what to expect each week.
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Aug 4, 2016 01:19
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Nine of Eight posted:I'm loving the sheer unpredictability of Emilio Lussu's stories, you just never know what to expect each week. If they made a movie about Emilio Lussu, no one would believe it.
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Aug 4, 2016 01:34
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Suspect Bucket posted:That is awesome to know! Thank you very much. Some of the parts are looking a bit tatty, it's great to know that they're replaceable. The paint is crackling and flaking in spots, and the diving planes are stuck in place, I was hoping to restore it. No problem! You can always join us in the scale model thread if you need any help/hints/arguments as to the proper shade of grey used by the USN in 1944. It's ~*Basalt*~ grey, BTW
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Aug 4, 2016 01:36
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As a sort of general counterpoint to the running themes in Trin's post, is there anyone particularly knowledgeable about radio usage in WWII? What level of unit has them? Do they effectively solve the problem of almost any advancing unit having zero situational awareness, and the generals having no idea what's happening during an offensive?
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Aug 4, 2016 01:51
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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MikeCrotch posted:IIRC the light & fast bullets we are talking about like 5.56 are tied up in this, since high enough velocity bullets can kill people via hydrostatic shock (essentially where the suction effect pf the bullet entering the body causes things like ruptured blood vessels and brain haemorrhages), something that is still relatively poorly understood. This is super contentious. I've seen people online swearing it is a thing, and I've seen a lot of people swearing it is bullshit. The fact that some people survive getting shot an awful lot when they don't have CNS trauma or catastrophic blood loss leads me to lean on the "if it is a thing it isn't a reliable killing thing" end of the issue, but I'm not a Dr. of Bulletology.
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Aug 4, 2016 01:53
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PittTheElder posted:As a sort of general counterpoint to the running themes in Trin's post, is there anyone particularly knowledgeable about radio usage in WWII? What level of unit has them? Do they effectively solve the problem of almost any advancing unit having zero situational awareness, and the generals having no idea what's happening during an offensive? This is massively dependent on what military you are talking about and what time in the war. The US in 1945 has radio operators running around and pretty OK coordination of front line troops with supporting air and artillery. The USSR in 1940 not so much.
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Aug 4, 2016 01:55
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Cyrano4747 posted:Also loving laffo at the kit for the Agincourt archer including the loving sharpened log. IIRC Roman Legionairies actually marched with 2 stakes as part of their loadout so they could set up their evening camps quickly.
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Aug 4, 2016 02:11
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Elyv posted:IIRC Roman Legionairies actually marched with 2 stakes as part of their loadout so they could set up their evening camps quickly. Would make sense, and stakes for the archers are a nifty idea, even if it is just "you want your anti-cavalry defense well here ya go. Don't lose it, or you gonna get lance in the face." I hear a lot of push-pull over the argument that French Generals of the Hundred Years' War were mostly just rich guys with too much desire for honor, recognition, and political gain, and not enough hobbies, but I feel like there may be a lot of misconceptions there if someone could clear it up.
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Aug 4, 2016 02:21
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xthetenth posted:If I want to do effort posts about carriers, none of you lot care if I do it in order, right? PLEASE do it!
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Aug 4, 2016 02:29
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MrMojok posted:PLEASE do it! Yep, I'm taking time off work once the thing I'm working on is done, and I'll get to it. Overall, I think I've got most of the books I want to have at hand to do it right, but getting through the ones I haven't already may take some time, so I may as well get rolling and make it a thing I do.
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Aug 4, 2016 02:52
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Polyakov posted:I'm just finishing my trip to Normandy for that purpose tommorrow, I'll let you know when im sober and back home Friday. Awesome stuff and please do!
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Aug 4, 2016 03:04
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Cyrano4747 posted:This is massively dependent on what military you are talking about and what time in the war. The US in 1945 has radio operators running around and pretty OK coordination of front line troops with supporting air and artillery. The USSR in 1940 not so much. Yeah, that makes a fair bit of sense. Did Soviet units have much in the way of radios at all? The Germans had built them into all their tanks by the time the war kicked off, correct? Did their infantry have mobile units as well? Speaking of which, is the problem truly solved now? It seems fairly common in film/TV about modern conflicts to show people having trouble with their radios often, but that might be a media thing. Or I guess since E-War is a big deal now, perhaps asking that about the present day will piss off the Opsec demons, but is anyone qualified and allowed to comment on the state of US communications during say, the first Gulf War?
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Aug 4, 2016 03:19
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gohuskies posted:If they made a movie about Emilio Lussu, no one would believe it. There was a Lussu story that Trin called Parapet 17 or something, and I couldn't tell if he was making a Catch-22 joke.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:43
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gohuskies posted:If they made a movie about Emilio Lussu, no one would believe it. Every time he shows up I'm just like, yikes.
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Aug 4, 2016 04:06
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:There was a Lussu story that Trin called Parapet 17 or something, and I couldn't tell if he was making a Catch-22 joke. The private who got chewed out by his sergeant for rescuing the general was some serious  Also the body armor, and the, and furthermore...Also that pikeman analogy makes me think that Trin may have read too many HEY GAL posts Elyv fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 04:39
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PittTheElder posted:Yeah, that makes a fair bit of sense. Did Soviet units have much in the way of radios at all? The Germans had built them into all their tanks by the time the war kicked off, correct? Did their infantry have mobile units as well? The Germans had at least radio receivers in all their tanks by the start of WWII. The Soviets didn't: the platoon (three tanks) commander and up would have a radio for "regular" tanks (T-34, T-26, BT), but "premium" tanks (KV, T-28, T-35, IS) had a radio in every tank. By the time IS tanks started coming out, every T-34 produced had a radio as well. The T-60 did not have a radio at all. The T-30 was supposed to follow the usual ratio, but it was more of a "best effort" kind of situation. There would also be a communications company in every regiment (brigade, or other independent unit) with a radio platoon (3-6 radios depending on the time of the war), a telephone platoon, and couriers with motorcycles/horses. Infantry battalions would also have a communications platoon with five radios and a telephone station.
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Aug 4, 2016 05:32
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Radios are decadent. You should be brave and use your flags like a good tank commander.
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Aug 4, 2016 05:59
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xthetenth posted:Yep, I'm taking time off work once the thing I'm working on is done, and I'll get to it. Overall, I think I've got most of the books I want to have at hand to do it right, but getting through the ones I haven't already may take some time, so I may as well get rolling and make it a thing I do. Looking forward to it. I love hearing about aircraft carrier design.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:32
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Cyrano4747 posted:If we're talking immediately lethal or incapacitating it's pretty much just the central nervous system, followed by the vessels of the circulatory system. There are plenty of places that will be lethal in a little bit (lung shots, big organs full of blood that won't bleed out as fast as an artery, etc), and even more that will eventually be lethal without medical treatment (penetrating wounds of the gut). This is the weirdest thing. Some people will straight up die from grazes or being struck in the foot, due to shock( I think). Endman posted:Radios are decadent. You should be brave and use your flags like a good tank commander. didn't North Korea still do this up until the war?
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Aug 4, 2016 08:15
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Tias posted:This is the weirdest thing. Some people will straight up die from grazes or being struck in the foot, due to shock( I think). in the witchcraft cases they don't even have to have had anything actually happen to them.
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Aug 4, 2016 08:17
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Suspect Bucket posted:I dunno, this guy looks like he's trying not to laugh. Like his kids are in the back of the artist giving him bunny ears or something. (edit: Wallenstein's only living child was a daughter, but he also had 21 uncles and aunts, many of which had kids, which is why every now and then you'll be reading through an order of battle and find a small crowd of Wallensteins, most with names like Ladislaus and Zdenko. Gallas, I think, had two kids, and a wife who promptly involved herself in inheritance lawsuits after he died. General Sporck had two daughters, Aldringen had no kids at all. Pappenheim had one son, Philip, who died in a duel in 1645. It seems to be a thing with these guys that they have fewer children than you'd expect.) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 08:18
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HEY GAL posted:from reading about magic and witchcraft i learned that in a bunch of cases, if people believe they are going to die, they will. As you know I have a bit of a background in magic stuffs, and this is the damndest thing. African witches, in particular, seem to have the knack of cursing people - after they learn that there's a hex on them, they stop sleeping, eating and die.
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Aug 4, 2016 08:26
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Empress Theonora posted:Every time he shows up I'm just like, yikes. Even the funny stories manage to be deeply disturbing.  If there's ever a game about the dude, it's going to have to be made by the crazy Russians who made Pathologic.
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Aug 4, 2016 09:22
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