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NachtSieger posted:Also related, me refusing to read any and all D&D homebrew in which fightery types have a poor Will save or equivalent because of prior bad experiences with the entire concept of the system
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Aug 4, 2016 02:52
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404notfound posted:That's the thing that's been bothering him for 30 years??? gently caress this. gently caress Mearls So here's the funny thing about this "thing that's been bothering Mike Mearls for 30 years." He's either incredibly forgetful, or lying through his teeth. See, we ended up talking about how this had been a solved problem for years in D&D, in 3e stuff and FR supplements and so on. It turns out, Mearls has design or development credits on two 3.5 supplements that both dealt with faith-based options for characters other than clerics or druids. He worked on Complete Champion, which contains tons of diverse options like the popular devotions. He also worked on Power of Faerun, which has an entire chapter about interacting with your faith and two pages outlining all the possible options for all sorts of divine characters - including prestige classes like arcane devotee, for church-associated wizards. These are both books he worked on. This doesn't include books he didn't work on but probably read as a 3.5 developer, like Champions of Valor (TONS of options for people serving the goddess of magic in here.) It also doesn't include third party stuff Mearls before he started working at Wizards, like his Scarred Lands book. He is lying through his teeth to make wizards more powerful. Good job Mearls, you're even more of an idiot than we thought.
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Aug 4, 2016 02:53
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The Crotch posted:I think that was the first thing to really throw me about 3e way-back-when. "The guy whose job it is to run face-first into the dragon's mouth has low willpower?" Well duh if he had high willpower he'd be convincing some other chump to do it.
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Aug 4, 2016 02:53
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Arivia posted:So here's the funny thing about this "thing that's been bothering Mike Mearls for 30 years." He's either incredibly forgetful, or lying through his teeth. It's impressive that with no actual splatbook publications, Mearls has still been able to massively power creep wizards, up to and including breaking the bounded accuracy mechanic in the name of Tzeentch.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:20
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mango sentinel posted:This is what I meant when I said "fantastical." Say a Fighter is so powerful fate itself decrees he be in certain spots for battles and when he travels places it just somehow happens that he makes it there in a day's time. Rogues so good at pickpocketing they gain the ability to Steal Hearts and Steal Tongues with their Sleight of Hand. A Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight shouldn't require a bunch of extra bullshit and they should be so completely one with their chosen terrain that it seems to bend to the Ranger's will to the point it becomes her ally. There's all kinds of flavorful stuff they could do, they just won't. Stuff like this isn't even that "fantastical" compared to existing wizard/cleric stuff. It's just that if they don't do it "by magic" then it's unrealistic, and if they do do it "by magic" it needs to be represented as a spell because magic is spells.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:22
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NachtSieger posted:Man I can't muster up the energy to pretend to be a shitposter any longer, so I'mma say that that's entirely fair, and I do really wish fighters, or fighter-likes in rpgs got more nice things in general. It's come to the point where if I look at an rpg I always zoom in on comparing the non-"magical" types to the "magical" types, then do an internal comparison between fightery types and non-fightery types, and I'm always invariably disappointed that wizardry is the better answer and the fighters have garbage skills to where I might as well just not bother with out of combat stats I say this without a hint of irony, but when I read a new RPG, I always read through the Warrior-type class if it has one, and if the content is as paltry as what D&D's been doing for coming on two decades, I put it down and move on as a dealbreaker. There's just no excuse anymore.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:22
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mango sentinel posted:Say a Fighter is so powerful fate itself decrees he be in certain spots for battles and when he travels places it just somehow happens that he makes it there in a day's time.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:43
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Arivia posted:He is lying through his teeth to make wizards more powerful. Good job Mearls, you're even more of an idiot than we thought.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:02
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I don't think the wizard is made to intentionally be massive power creep that supercharges wizards and makes them better then clerics in every way. If it were intentional, that would imply that the 5e team put effort into it. I think what actually happened - what happens every time any 5e material comes out - is that they just copy-pasted some cleric powers onto the wizard chassis without thinking about how it would actually work. Remember, they already had to give unofficial errata to it to allow it to function. This isn't overpowered by design because 5e doesn't have design. As for Mearls going "FINALLY A SOLUTION" I think he is actually dumb and forgetful enough that he doesn't remember or recognize previous editions making the same fixes even when he worked on them. Everything about his "design chops" paints a man who fundamentally does not pay attention to, uh, anything, and who constantly forgets the mistakes of the past in his eagerness to make them all over again.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:24
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ProfessorCirno posted:As for Mearls going "FINALLY A SOLUTION" I think he is actually dumb and forgetful enough that he doesn't remember or recognize previous editions making the same fixes even when he worked on them. Everything about his "design chops" paints a man who fundamentally does not pay attention to, uh, anything, and who constantly forgets the mistakes of the past in his eagerness to make them all over again. Which is weird because at the same time Mearls is still hanging onto the same design crutches he developed all the way back in his d20 supplement days.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:33
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Mendrian posted:What I'm saying is that martials should get another class layer after level 9 that lets them pick semi-magical advancement paths to justify a host of new class features.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:47
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I think the idea needs to be expressed that you can have power without it being arcane power, or even explicitly magical power. You can simply have enough force of will or strength of character that things just seem to happen around you. You can move faster than physics would otherwise seem to allow, and these forces can bee seen, they can be felt and measured, but they can't be defined. It's just something... heroic. Alternately they can be defined, it can be a thing that as you become more powerful the laws of the universe tend to bend to your will subconciously. The laws of thermodynamics are totally cool with you creating energy within a closed system, they know you'll get them back later. And you can totally leap 700 feet up into the air and land nearby without breaking the sound barrier or ripping the skin off of your flesh, the air elementals don't want to piss you off.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:56
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As far as TSR D&D goes, I know that multi-classing and/or dual-classing was a thing, and I also know that Paladins were either a sub-class or a late-game ascension class (progenitor of a Prestige Class) for Fighters, but did the concept of an "Eldritch Knight" appear before 3rd Edition? Some kit or variant or subclass of a Fighter in some obscure Dragon Magazine or sourcebook somewhere where that idea took off?
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Aug 4, 2016 07:17
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Kurieg posted:I think the idea needs to be expressed that you can have power without it being arcane power, or even explicitly magical power. You can simply have enough force of will or strength of character that things just seem to happen around you. You can move faster than physics would otherwise seem to allow, and these forces can bee seen, they can be felt and measured, but they can't be defined. It's just something... heroic. What's interesting right, is that if you look at most fiction (Conan not withstanding) there reaches a point where if the martials are supposed to keep pace with the magics they evolve and gain some hereto unknown ability that grants them superhuman power. I'm thinking specific of Thomas from Feist's Magician series but it's true in a lot of poo poo; it might be a magic item, or a bloodline, or some legacy or a deal with a demon or something that justifies their new abilities. Now I'm not saying all advancement past a certain point needs to be magically justified - it doesn't - but I'm saying I don't know why D&D has never done it, or never done it very well. Maybe it has done it, my knowledge of anything before 2nd Ed AD&D is pretty shaky. The point is it'd fit right in with 5e's 'design' sensibilities. And the beauty of it is, if you gave martials a secondary magical advancement path you could just file the whole thing under OPTIONAL CONTENT (like Tieflings and Dragonborn) and nobody would pitch a fit about it. People who just want fighters that don't suck can just scrub the word 'magic' off of it and be done with it. I think I'm going to write something like that now for Fighters at the very least.
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Aug 4, 2016 07:30
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404notfound posted:If it makes the jump from UA to final product the way the rogue's swashbuckler archetype did, then I'm done with 5e. I wouldn't worry. It's been one and a half years since that garbage UA for artificers came out, and there isn't anything Then again, this makes wizards more powerful, so who knows 
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Aug 4, 2016 07:30
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Mendrian posted:What's interesting right, is that if you look at most fiction (Conan not withstanding) there reaches a point where if the martials are supposed to keep pace with the magics they evolve and gain some hereto unknown ability that grants them superhuman power. I'm thinking specific of Thomas from Feist's Magician series but it's true in a lot of poo poo; it might be a magic item, or a bloodline, or some legacy or a deal with a demon or something that justifies their new abilities. Now I'm not saying all advancement past a certain point needs to be magically justified - it doesn't - but I'm saying I don't know why D&D has never done it, or never done it very well. Maybe it has done it, my knowledge of anything before 2nd Ed AD&D is pretty shaky. The point is it'd fit right in with 5e's 'design' sensibilities. And the beauty of it is, if you gave martials a secondary magical advancement path you could just file the whole thing under OPTIONAL CONTENT (like Tieflings and Dragonborn) and nobody would pitch a fit about it. People who just want fighters that don't suck can just scrub the word 'magic' off of it and be done with it. Simply put, it was always seen as the duty of the DM to do this kinda thing. Fountains that cast Wish, powerful artifact weapons, etc. Because this was not officiated from the start, it has, of course, become D&D CANON that it must never have rules - it must always be "the DM's thing." 3e started introducing things LIKE this with PrCs. it's just that it was, you know, 3e. So pretty much all those PrCs were loving garbage, superseded by other, better ones for spellcasters.
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Aug 4, 2016 07:47
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Kurieg posted:I think the idea needs to be expressed that you can have power without it being arcane power, or even explicitly magical power. You can simply have enough force of will or strength of character that things just seem to happen around you. You can move faster than physics would otherwise seem to allow, and these forces can bee seen, they can be felt and measured, but they can't be defined. It's just something... heroic. You move faster than the average person, but it's not that you move unbelievably fast, it's that the climactic poo poo literally can't start without you. You're always there in time. Just in time for the battle, just in time for the rescue, just in time to take an arrow meant for the King. This doesn't mean you can't lose. You just can't lose by not getting to try because Destiny doesn't work like that. You might make a famous last stand and and lose the battle anyway, you might get shot full of poisoned darts by the cultists and die before you can rescue the princess, the arrow you take for the King might kill you, or you might have missed the other assassin behind the curtains, or or or... but you're never simply too late, too slow, or too far away.
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Aug 4, 2016 07:48
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So a wizard always arrives on time while you always arrive in the nick of time?
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Aug 4, 2016 08:12
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Kurieg posted:I think the idea needs to be expressed that you can have power without it being arcane power, or even explicitly magical power. You can simply have enough force of will or strength of character that things just seem to happen around you. You can move faster than physics would otherwise seem to allow, and these forces can bee seen, they can be felt and measured, but they can't be defined. It's just something... heroic. It was sometime around AD&D 1e where Gygax wrote about what saving throws were, and he described it in such a way that implied there was some degree of narrative fiat at play. IIRC the example was the Dragon using its breath weapon against a Fighter that's chained to a rock. The Fighter still gets a saving throw, and if it makes it, it could mean something like the Fighter breaks his chains, stands up, and jumps out of the way of the breath just before it hits. It has nothing to do with the physics of the act.
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Aug 4, 2016 08:32
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Cassa posted:So a wizard always arrives on time while you always arrive in the nick of time? It's not "the nick of time", it just looks that way until you realise that their timing would be exactly the same if they'd had to bash down 3 doors on the way instead of just 1, or if their horse had been killed and they had to walk, or if their ship sank and they spent 2 months on a desert island scrounging 150 coconuts and fashioning them into a crude canoe to get to where they need to be. Then when they arrive the light hits them just the right way that their sword flashes brightly as they draw it. It's only a side effect, but it looks cool.
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Aug 4, 2016 08:43
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Cassa posted:So a wizard always arrives on time while you always arrive in the nick of time? Actually I think you'll find a wizard always arrives precisely when he means to. 
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Aug 4, 2016 08:44
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Mendrian posted:I think I'm going to write something like that now for Fighters at the very least. IMO martial PCs should always be assumed to be in absolute peak physical condition. Yes the wizard can fireball but the fighter can duck, weave and close the distance faster than the wizard can blink even in heavy armor, The thief will never be seen coming, the barbarian just loving shrugs it off. There are much stronger limits placed on pure physicality than on magic. And while that makes sense (to have limits like that) in literally any other magical setting, it shouldn't in one where all types of PCs are supposed to have equal amounts of agency. If magic is the application of one's will on the ether/mana/elements then why is one kind of will immediately superior to another? Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 09:21
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dwarf74 posted:I think "lying through his teeth" is a bit ... overboard ... for what amounts to ad copy? That's fair. I've been swayed by Cirno's argument that he's just that dumb and forgetful anyway, so I'll retract that.
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Aug 4, 2016 09:52
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gradenko_2000 posted:As far as TSR D&D goes, I know that multi-classing and/or dual-classing was a thing, and I also know that Paladins were either a sub-class or a late-game ascension class (progenitor of a Prestige Class) for Fighters, but did the concept of an "Eldritch Knight" appear before 3rd Edition? Some kit or variant or subclass of a Fighter in some obscure Dragon Magazine or sourcebook somewhere where that idea took off? I think the early ancestor was the bladesinger, a wizard kit from the Complete Book of Elves. It was grossly overpowered, which made it very popular in 2e. What's notable about the bladesinger is that it was the first option to actually combine magic and martial skill into something new - you cast spells through the bladesong specifically to enhance your melee combat. Elven fighter/mages were a thing, but they were just wizards that could also use a sword. The arcane archer was the introduction of this idea in 3.0, that you could use magic to create unique effects that augmented your archery. Tome and Blood then updated the bladesinger to 3e, so forth and so on. The other possible place there'd be an ancestor would be the first one hundred issues of Dragon or so. There were a lot of weird classes printed in there. I'm familiar with most of them, but not necessarily all.
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Aug 4, 2016 10:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:As far as TSR D&D goes, I know that multi-classing and/or dual-classing was a thing, and I also know that Paladins were either a sub-class or a late-game ascension class (progenitor of a Prestige Class) for Fighters, but did the concept of an "Eldritch Knight" appear before 3rd Edition? Some kit or variant or subclass of a Fighter in some obscure Dragon Magazine or sourcebook somewhere where that idea took off? Except for the already mentioned Book of Elves, nothing leaps to mind. It was more common for a wizard to say "I use a staff instead of a sword" but they were still terrible with the sword.
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Aug 4, 2016 11:58
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As always, the root problem with power sources is overlooked. First you need to figure out what an adventurer is, what someone having a level means, and whether you're in a game where only PCs play by one set of rules that no one else does, or not. Without consistency on that its going to be a giant mess. Otherwise thieves that can't be seen = oh well the goblin assassin just came into your camp at night and slit everyone's throat. etc etc
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Aug 4, 2016 12:48
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Out of the Abyss trip report! Mind flayers and a deck of many things!! So Blondel the 10th level wizard is adventuring and the party stumbles upon a Mind flayer larder, with a mindflayer inside. The monk teleports forward and sets off the mind flayer's mindblast. This stunned the monk, our ranger and one of our Earth Elementals. The cleric then cast Hold Person and Blondel's Shield Guardian hasted itself to punch the mind flayer until it stopped twitching. The cleric then moved up when reinforcements appeared, 4 gnolls and another mind flayer. The gnolls were almost universally slaughtered by the cleric's spirit guardians, which freed the intellect devourers, who got to watch as the mind flayer was consumed by necrotic damage and cleric thwacks. The cleric then had his mind devoured by an intellect devourer, and was possessed for 6 seconds before the wizard wall of fired, saving the now brainless cleric.At no point did the Ranger or Monk make their save vs stun in 5 rounds, they were useless until the effect wore off, well after the fighting was over. After that we returned to the mind flayer lair with a freshly reanimated, now Mountain Dwarf Cleric, and proceeded to murder more mind flayers and some trash. Then we met another NPC and found a deck of many things. The rangers soul was stolen on the first draw, the wizard then lost all his equipment, had -2 to all saves, but finally got 50k xp bumping him to level 12. The cleric is blessed to level if he solos the next fight, and the ranger was stolen away to another dimension in a magic orb. Blondel's pretty ok with how it all went tbh.
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Aug 4, 2016 13:10
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Have there been any supplements official or otherwise that actually give Fighters and other non - magical character types nice things? If not, I take it there actually is a market for one?
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Aug 4, 2016 13:23
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There definitely haven't been any official ones. I've never of heard of any third-party supplements that come close to what, say, Tome of Battle did, but it's hard to know if any exist because there's very little word of mouth.
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Aug 4, 2016 13:28
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The Crotch posted:So apparently the new UA lets wizards get access to a high-level cleric class feature before clerics do? That's kind of odd, but I'm sure there's a goo- How did things get to this point, I wonder.
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Aug 4, 2016 14:15
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The correct solution, Mearls, is to add a Not-Tzneetch and then have his followers be " ____ by day/cultist by night" idiots that get their comeuppance when they grow crab armsAngrymog posted:Have there been any supplements official or otherwise that actually give Fighters and other non - magical character types nice things? At least in 3rd, Savage Species gave you some sick poo poo if you min-maxed a troll. Whatever book gave the "Devestating Critical" feat was also baller as gently caress for melee dudes
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Aug 4, 2016 14:37
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Is anything known about Storm King's Thunder? I saw it on the Wikipedia release list for September 6th. If it's the next League adventure book, I might pick it up to salvage the group at League. The Cleric player doesn't want to play in Strahd anymore because it's depressing and having Strahd show up every week just to clown us isn't fun either, even if it is accurate to how it's been in the past. I'm all for an undead themed adventure but not one with a demigod that shows up just to gently caress you, specifically, the low level party.
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Aug 4, 2016 15:02
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Lol. who's running that, Gygax's nephew? I'm running Strahd and have not had him make a personal appearance once. I let his subtle influence be hinted at every mess that they run across, but if the players miss it, I'm ok with that too, more poo poo Strahd can laugh at that for missing. They won't get to meet him until they decide to visit Ravenloft. It will be the smugest encounter ever 
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Aug 4, 2016 15:14
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Our DM is... inexperienced. He has a habit of doing things by the book, then when he does deviate, he doesn't consider balance or what the players might enjoy. Feels like he's had a lot of adversarial DMs and he's picked up too many bad habits.
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Aug 4, 2016 15:28
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Our DM is... inexperienced. He has a habit of doing things by the book, then when he does deviate, he doesn't consider balance or what the players might enjoy. Feels like he's had a lot of adversarial DMs and he's picked up too many bad habits. Have you talked about it to him?
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Aug 4, 2016 15:29
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We have not had a sit down talk but we've expressed how much we didn't enjoy this or that. As a group we're all pretty passive. Three sessions ago the Cleric attacked a Deva (we thought it was a human in a robe) because it said it was working for Strahd. This was a fight way over our heads but we killed it. Next session he informs us that we've been inflicted with madness by Strahd for killing his angel. The Barbarian and I got long term madness that we had to roll for every single encounter with people, combat or not, while the Cleric got gills. And the Cleric wasn't allowed to Remove Curse or anything since Strahd had done it and her god wasn't available in Barovia. The next session, the Cleric roleplays to ask the former god of the Deva to take our madness and give it to her instead. Strahd intervened and said he would remove the curse if she murdered some guy and replaced the Deva as his worshipper, which would remove her from the game. She refused. Later we head to Yesterhill to get a gem back from some Druids. We scout the place out, start forming a plan, the obnoxious player ruins it by running straight towards them because he wanted to roll a new character and didn't want to just... roll a new character. Then Strahd just happens to show up on his horse to collect a blessing and this reactivates the Cleric's madness, making her single mindedly obsessed with the current quest of retrieving the gem, ignoring literally everything else. So she just marched up to the ritual site and was cut down by four guards. We didn't play yesterday because everyone who was left alive couldn't make it. This all sounds a lot worse typed up together.
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Aug 4, 2016 15:41
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Admiral Joeslop posted:The next session, the Cleric roleplays to ask the former god of the Deva to take our madness and give it to her instead. Strahd intervened and said he would remove the curse if she murdered some guy and replaced the Deva as his worshipper, Admiral Joeslop posted:which would remove her from the game. 
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Aug 4, 2016 16:19
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Splicer posted:That's pretty baller! I could see a tonne of cool ways for a pc becoming a cleric of Strahd to play out. wouldn't being a cleric of strahd necessitate you following his goals? I don't see how that'd be good for a PC unless the party's plan was to all become henchmen of him
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Aug 4, 2016 16:24
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mastershakeman posted:wouldn't being a cleric of strahd necessitate you following his goals? I don't see how that'd be good for a PC unless the party's plan was to all become henchmen of him Which would remove them all from the game as they would have to become evil to serve him and evil things are not allowed. Hey let's have another alignment debate! I'll start: alignment as anything beyond a vague description of your general attitude towards things is dumb. Giving mechanical benefits and detriments is the worst.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:28
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gradenko_2000 posted:As far as TSR D&D goes, I know that multi-classing and/or dual-classing was a thing, and I also know that Paladins were either a sub-class or a late-game ascension class (progenitor of a Prestige Class) for Fighters, but did the concept of an "Eldritch Knight" appear before 3rd Edition? Some kit or variant or subclass of a Fighter in some obscure Dragon Magazine or sourcebook somewhere where that idea took off? It's largely as Arivia says. Through OD&D and AD&D, it was an elf thing. Some other races could multiclass fighter/mage (like gnome's Illusionist/Fighter), and humans could try to dual class (which was not nearly as popular outside of Baldur's Gate as it was inside, since you can't really have meta-knowledge of your DM's campaign), but elves had the highest level limitations for fighters and magic-users. They were kinda similar how a fighter-wizard multiclass might work in 5e; they could fight like a fighter, or cast spells like a wizard, but always a level or two behind the pure classes in both, and they could only do one action per turn. All class restrictions remained - if they wore fighter armor, or had their hands occupied, no spellcasting allowed. Longswords and bows were the most popular weapons of choice; elves got bonuses to both, magic longswords were the most common, and bows kept your fragile wizard half out of the melee. Typically you cast buffs and whatnot before a fight, and then used your weapon during the fight, because of all the restrictions. The Bladesinger came out in the incredibly bad Complete Book of Elves. It was intended to be a sort of "elven paladin" in some ways; rather then mix fighting with the divine, it mixed it with magic. You even had a vague code of conduct, sorta. It was also incredibly overpowered compared to any other fighter/wizard choice (and quite a few NON-fighter/wizard choices!) It's main advantages that are worth mentioning in this context are thus: bladesingers can cast spells while holding a sword, and bladesigners get a bonus to AC while casting a spell. This allowed the Bladesinger to actually cast wizard spells between turns of being a fighter, and helped soothe that wizard frailty. It was basically the first time you could actually play as a character who was both a fighter and a wizard in battle, not a somewhat worse wizard outside of battle and a slightly shittier fighter inside a battle. In later 3e years, you saw the same thing happening. You could multiclass Fighter and Wizard, but kept all restrictions, which meant...no, you broadly COULDN'T really multiclass. Especially with 3e's new multiclass system. PrCs like the Eldritch Knight didn't actually help this much. Eventually, some new classes that were essentially "fighters but slightly shittier who also got spells" happened, like the Hexblade, and they were terrible because WotC was still being hyper-conservative with their fighter classes even as wizards ran amuck. Eventually though, they made the Duskblade. The Duskblade had a fighter chasis - high BAB, slowly gained better armor over time - and a grip of spells, up to level 6 spells, most of them evocation. The big thing the Duskblade got was the ability to cast a touch spell in the same turn that it attacked (and eventually to do it as part of a full attack). This was later compounded by a feat in other books that let them sacrifice spell slots to do extra damage in an attack. So finally, you had a wizard/fighter who could cast spells AS they hit you with a sword, for probably the first time. 3e also changed things up a bit by adding spells intended FOR melee usage. Spells that gave you a magic weapon to attack with, or spells that encorporated melee attacks into whatever it did. Of course, this is still 3e, so this was chump moves compared to just being a wizard, and full spellcasters were still often better at USING these spells then the hybrid type characters, but...it tried. Sorta.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:31
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