USPOL August: Quoth The Donald, "Arzy more."

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USPOL August: Quoth The Donald, "Arzy more."

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Cheesus: Oct 17, 2002; Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.; Yam Slacker

Related to TPP, after listening to a discussion about it on NPR last week, I came away with the following:

Despite Hilary's rhetoric to revise it before signing, that's nearly impossible as none of the countries signed on to it would agree to it.
Instead she would attempt to tie some kind of worker retraining funding to it and...
...regardless, she's almost assuredly going to sign it with or without said modifications/funding.

Does that sound about correct?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:08

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# ? May 26, 2024 17:36

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

i am harry posted:

Was Clint talking to a reporter this time when he said things he used to do weren't called racist, or an empty chair again?

A reporter.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:13

ex post facho: Oct 25, 2007

Clinton has said she opposes the TPP through her campaign, but lots of people (including Terry McAuliffe) believe she'll flip - again - and move forward with it after the election.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:14

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Mahoning posted:

I'm talking about the people in the video asking her those questions, as if she was the first. Not saying anything about you.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:16

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Cheesus posted:

Related to TPP, after listening to a discussion about it on NPR last week, I came away with the following:

Despite Hilary's rhetoric to revise it before signing, that's nearly impossible as none of the countries signed on to it would agree to it.

Instead she would attempt to tie some kind of worker retraining funding to it and...

...regardless, she's almost assuredly going to sign it with or without said modifications/funding.
Does that sound about correct?

My feeling on the TPP is, like Keystone, this is more of a proxy debate about the direction of american trade policy (energy in KXL's case) rather than any practical objection to what's in the measure.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:17

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

The TPP opposition is a perfect example of preying upon or perpetuating ignorance. I'm still hearing about stuff in it that was part of those early 'leaks' that were at best misleading.

Oh and reflexive hatred of Globalisation/Free Trade.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:17

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

Taerkar posted:

The TPP opposition is a perfect example of preying upon or perpetuating ignorance. I'm still hearing about stuff in it that was part of those early 'leaks' that were at best misleading.

Oh and reflexive hatred of Globalisation/Free Trade.

It's OK to reflexively hate something if it will lead, or has led, to the loss of your job.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:19

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Noam Chomsky posted:

It's OK to reflexively hate something if it will lead or has led to the loss of your job.

Which TPP provision is that?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:20

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

Paul Ryan: My support for Donald Trump is not a "blank check"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paul-ryan-my-support-for-donald-trump-is-not-a-blank-check/

quote:

"None of these things are ever blank checks," said Ryan, who then added that Trump won the Republican nomination "fair and square" from the voters and delegates.

At the beginning of the interview, Bader asked Ryan how he can continue to walk such a fine line from now until the election of still backing Trump, while constantly criticizing his remarks.

"We are a party where the grassroots Republican primary voter selects our nominee. That's as it should be. That is what it is. I think something should be said about respecting those voters," Ryan said. "He won it fair and square."

Ryan brushed off Trump's comment from earlier this week in which Trump said he's "not quite there yet" as far as endorsing Ryan for reelection. Ryan said he's only interested in endorsements from employers in his congressional district. Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman, told "CBS This Morning" on Thursday that Trump plans to support Ryan.

"He's going to support Paul Ryan, he does support Paul Ryan, he said he's going to work with Paul Ryan. There's no issue about that. He didn't take a position in the primary, he didn't take a position in many primaries. That's not the news. The news is the two of them working together to elect a Republican Congress and a Republican president, and I think you're going to see that," Manafort said.

Since Ryan endorsed Trump in June, he said Thursday that he has not shied away from calling Trump out if it's warranted and will continue to do so.

"I said at that time, 'If I see a situation where our conservative principles are being distorted, I'm going to stand up for those conservative principles,'" Ryan said. "I'm not going to sit by and say nothing. That's what I said I would do, and that's what I'm continuing to do."

Asked again if there ever would be a point at which Trump could go too far, Ryan said, "Of course there is. That's with any situation like this."

He also said that Trump has had "a pretty strange run since the convention" in Cleveland last month and that it's a shame that Republicans aren't focusing on Hillary Clinton.

Doesn't really sound like he's threatened to withdraw his endorsement. Not that it would matter. Since Nothing Matters.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:21

ex post facho: Oct 25, 2007

zoux posted:

Which TPP provision is that?

Probably the part about "enforcement of fair labor standards".

I absolutely do not trust the U.S. to enforce fair labor standards if substandard labor laws are of continued economic benefit to U.S. corporations.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:22

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

zoux posted:

Which TPP provision is that?

Was referring to this line - "Oh and reflexive hatred of Globalisation/Free Trade" - from the post I quoted and not the TPP specifically.

But, keep being disingenuous.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:22

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

OxySnake posted:

I honestly dont know how well a debate would go for Trump.

I can honestly see him working with his campaign for hours going over different topics and responses for them. But as soon as you get to a topic that he isnt prepared for or he gets questioned on some of his previous buffoonery him going completely off script and saying something really dumb that then just snowballs from their.

But at the same time in the primaries he just kept doubling down on his attacks on the other candidates and it worked well enough to get the nom. His best strategy would be to continue to bring every issue back to the "Crooked Hillary" narrative. Repeat that ad naseum so that it sticks with voters.

I would say that the most likely outcome is the first scenario. But if he can pull his head out of his rear end for even a night it could do him a world of good.

Granted im also saying this as someone who thinks that Clinton will win but is also terrified that something will happen that will swing the election.

Im pretty sure what's going to happen at the debates: Clinton will beat him up with facts, and he will respond with gendered slurs.

What I don't know is whether that wins or loses him votes.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:22

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

OhFunny posted:

Paul Ryan: My support for Donald Trump is not a "blank check"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paul-ryan-my-support-for-donald-trump-is-not-a-blank-check/

Doesn't really sound like he's threatened to withdraw his endorsement. Not that it would matter. Since Nothing Matters.

So Ryan is admitting that Trumps constant attacks on immigrants and minorities is in line with "conservative principles" since otherwise he would have withdrawn his totally not black check support?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:25

turn it up TURN ME ON: Mar 19, 2012; In the Grim Darkness of the Future, there is only war.

...and delicious ice cream.

Radish posted:

So Ryan is admitting that Trumps constant attacks on immigrants and minorities is in line with "conservative principles" since otherwise he would have withdrawn his totally not black check support?

Well yeah. Of course it is.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:27

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Radish posted:

So Ryan is admitting that Trumps constant attacks on immigrants and minorities is in line with "conservative principles" since otherwise he would have withdrawn his totally not black check support?

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/761252286765080576
https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/761252503476441088

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:28

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Cimber posted:

http://www.electoral-vote.com/ has it at Clinton:273, Trump:218 with 47 ties. Too loving close for comfort.

That site has Virginia as "barely GOP" so whomever made it is out of their drat mind. I'm pretty sure Clinton has lead Trump by several points in every poll for that state and currently sits around +5 in VA.

Clinton's looking at a minimum of 300ish EVs even if she loses Florida and Ohio. She could easily end up with a 350+ EV victory by taking those states and a few of the other tossups.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Reason is a low rent CeslestialScribe, ignore him.

This, but ignore both of them.

Though this is D&D, where people have to throw themselves at idiots and gimmicks no matter what.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:29

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Noam Chomsky posted:

It's OK to reflexively hate something if it will lead, or has led, to the loss of your job.

That job was already lost. You know what we call companies that do the moral thing and keep "Hard Working Americans" employed vs outsourcing low-skill production to other countries?

Defunct.

a shameful boehner posted:

Probably the part about "enforcement of fair labor standards".

I absolutely do not trust the U.S. to enforce fair labor standards if substandard labor laws are of continued economic benefit to U.S. corporations.

Do you think that the US has better or worst standards than the countries involved? U.S. corporations LOVE standards if it hurts their competition and keeps the barriers of entry high.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:30

Sulphagnist: Oct 10, 2006; WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED

I'm kinda nostalgic for electoral-vote.com's old web 1.0 appearance, with the yellow background. Anyone remember looking at that during 2004? The map looks a little similar with the border colouring.

Edit: Here we are

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:31

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Rules for the CC roast of Donald Trump

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:33

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

SquadronROE posted:

Well yeah. Of course it is.

Yeah I mean we all knew but it feels weird for the Majority Speaker to be saying "look I'll withdraw my support for the guy when he steps over the line and says something that Conservatism is against" then is silent while that guy has been talking about deporting minorities and attacking families of dead military for months. That's pretty explicit.

zoux posted:

Rules for the CC roast of Donald Trump

Haha, incest is less poisonous to the brand than revealing his lack of money.

Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 4, 2016

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:36

ex post facho: Oct 25, 2007

Taerkar posted:

That job was already lost. You know what we call companies that do the moral thing and keep "Hard Working Americans" employed vs outsourcing low-skill production to other countries?

Defunct.

So how do you feel about the auto industry bailout and the rust belt of America in general?

Taerkar posted:

Do you think that the US has better or worst standards than the countries involved? U.S. corporations LOVE standards if it hurts their competition and keeps the barriers of entry high.

Better.

Do I trust the U.S. to enforce those standards? No.

The U.S. can't even keep its own companies from hiring undocumented workers and paying them illegally low wages and without benefits; there's no way I expect stamping out of child labor and insane working conditions across the pacific rim by the U.S.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:37

Spaced God: Feb 8, 2014; All torment, trouble, wonder and amazement
Inhabits here: some heavenly power guide us
Out of this fearful country!

https://twitter.com/VP/status/761253705341480962
Biden is the best uncle :3:

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:38

BI NOW GAY LATER: Jan 17, 2008; So people stop asking, the "Bi" in my username is a reference to my love for the two greatest collegiate sports programs in the world, the Virginia Tech Hokies and the Marshall Thundering Herd.

It's almost like Paul Ryan is a big, fat phony fraud of a person.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:38

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

BI NOW GAY LATER posted:

It's almost like Paul Ryan is a big, fat phony fraud of a person.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:40

Hermsgerv�rden: Apr 23, 2004; Møøse Trainer

zoux posted:

Rules for the CC roast of Donald Trump

Is this real, if yes, link to source please.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:41

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

Taerkar posted:

That job was already lost. You know what we call companies that do the moral thing and keep "Hard Working Americans" employed vs outsourcing low-skill production to other countries?

Defunct.

Do you think that the US has better or worst standards than the countries involved? U.S. corporations LOVE standards if it hurts their competition and keeps the barriers of entry high.

"That job" lost because of trade policy that made it easier to move it elsewhere.

I don't blame anyone for reflexively being against the TPP and other trade agreements. They may be wrong - I don't know - but I don't blame them for not wanting to be hosed over again.

http://www.ibtimes.com/tpp-trade-deal-does-it-threaten-american-jobs-depends-who-you-ask-2292847

quote:

While it's nearly impossible to measure its direct effects on employment levels, the last major trade deal inked by the U.S. soured many on the notion of free trade. Although it did not specifically isolate the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) � a treaty that took effect in 1994 � recent research found the United States� growing trade deficit with Mexico has displaced nearly 700,000 American jobs.

http://www.epi.org/blog/whats-wrong...king-americans/

quote:

The corporations that stand to benefit have few, if any, organic ties to the U.S. economy�most have outsourced a large share of production jobs to other countries. The primary beneficiaries will be people from the United States who happen to own stock in these companies. And the greatest benefits will flow to those who own the most stocks, primarily those in the top 1, 5, and 10 percent of the income distribution. So, the TPP and similar agreements will only serve to worsen U.S. income inequality.

But, it's cool if you want a government that doesn't really negotiate trade deals that positively benefit those who work for a living. Everything is a choice. These trade agreements don't have to happen and they don't have to be crafted in such a way that hurts the working class. They're crafted that way because the people who sit in a room and write them and negotiate them don't really care about the working class, just like, apparently, you.

Huzanko fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Aug 4, 2016

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:43

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

a shameful boehner posted:

So how do you feel about the auto industry bailout and the rust belt of America in general?

I live in coal country and work for a manufacturing company. Just like the auto industry the coal jobs aren't coming back to the extent that these people want.

I live near the first Lexus plant in the US. Kentucky is deeply involved with the automotive and aircraft industries now, but those are jobs that now require less people to do them, but higher skills from those people.

What led to the rust belt was staying the course for so long and not adapting to the changing world. Whining about trade deals won't bring that back.

quote:

Better.

Do I trust the U.S. to enforce those standards? No.

The U.S. can't even keep its own companies from hiring undocumented workers and paying them illegally low wages and without benefits; there's no way I expect stamping out of child labor and insane working conditions across the pacific rim by the U.S.

Sooooo... Nothing will happen and the status quo is preserved.

What exactly is your point?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:45

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Hermsgerv�rden posted:

Is this real, if yes, link to source please.

http://www.vulture.com/2016/08/donald-trump-roast-off-limits-joke.html

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:46

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

I think "I don't think the US will make full use of those worker rights provisions" isn't really an indictment of the treaty.

Generally I'm with Krugman on this. The specifics of the treaty doesn't seem good, but it doesn't seem disastrous either. The parts of the TPP you don't like are gonna be exactly the parts Republicans do, in the end.

Maybe Hillary is lying about opposing TPP, maybe Trump is. Maybe Trump will sign a deal that is TPP except way worse, shortly before nuking Mecca. Who knows.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Aug 4, 2016

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:48

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

Taerkar posted:

I live in coal country and work for a manufacturing company. Just like the auto industry the coal jobs aren't coming back to the extent that these people want.

I live near the first Lexus plant in the US. Kentucky is deeply involved with the automotive and aircraft industries now, but those are jobs that now require less people to do them, but higher skills from those people.

What led to the rust belt was staying the course for so long and not adapting to the changing world. Whining about trade deals won't bring that back.

Sooooo... Nothing will happen and the status quo is preserved.

What exactly is your point?

No one is talking about jobs coming back. The point that was made is you can't expect the average american to fall in love with trade deals when the last big one led to a lot of jobs being lost and while jobs are still being lost to offshoring and outsourcing.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:48

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

double post.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:49

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Noam Chomsky posted:

No one is talking about jobs coming back. The point that was made is you can't expect the average american to fall in love with trade deals when the last big one led to a lot of jobs being lost and while jobs are still being lost to offshoring and outsourcing.

Wait, are you referring to NAFTA?

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:51

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

Noam Chomsky posted:

No one is talking about jobs coming back. The point that was made is you can't expect the average american to fall in love with trade deals when the last big one led to a lot of jobs being lost and while jobs are still being lost to offshoring and outsourcing.

Those jobs are never coming back. We have to figure out a solution instead of clinging to that hope.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:52

Geostomp: Oct 22, 2008; Unite: MASH!!
~They've got the bad guys on the run!~

Fangz posted:

The view comes from the fact that the right wing media barrages them with anti-Obama stories 24/7, and then claim that Obama is in the news too much.

Yeah. We have to remember that these people see reality filtered through right wing propaganda media. They despise other sources of information for "bias" because they don't give them the confirmation of the narrative they agree with. They get genuinely offended and distressed when they hear anything that does not support their own personal idea of how the world works. For them, the right wing blogshpere or Foxe News are the safe spaces they need to function.

In a very real sense, hardcore conservatives do not live in the same world as everyone else.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:52

Huzanko: Aug 4, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

zoux posted:

Wait, are you referring to NAFTA?

Of course. Does it matter? You're just going to continue defending trade agreements and denying they lead to the loss of American jobs no matter who posts what evidence that they do, as per usual.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:53

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Noam Chomsky posted:

No one is talking about jobs coming back. The point that was made is you can't expect the average american to fall in love with trade deals when the last big one led to a lot of jobs being lost and while jobs are still being lost to offshoring and outsourcing.

So?

"The Average American" is frankly a horrible reason to use in an argument, especially if you're talking about how they feel.

Unless you're Newt Gingrich.

Where I live "The Average American" believes in the War on Coal, so clearly we should stop any environmental protection measures and get rid of the EPA.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:53

Eifert Posting: Apr 1, 2007; Most of the time he catches it every time.; Grimey Drawer

Mel Mudkiper posted:

The joy of an election is that we are all equal in the electorate

Actually as an Ohioan I am a member of the electoral master race. All you upity non-swing-state rabble can kiss my rear end.

(Please for all that is holy don't take this post seriously)

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:53

Missionary Positron: Jul 6, 2004; And now for something completely different

Spaced God posted:

https://twitter.com/VP/status/761253705341480962
Biden is the best uncle

This legit made me crack a smile :unsmith:

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:53

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

Noam Chomsky posted:

Of course. Does it matter? You're just going to continue defending trade agreements and denying they lead to the loss of American jobs no matter who posts what evidence that they do, as per usual.

Lol, what the hell.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:54

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# ? May 26, 2024 17:36

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

If the US doesn't enforce some sort of rules in Asian trade then China will sign 1-on-1 deals with neighboring countries without any sort of worker protections whatsoever. Whether or not the specific rules we are creating are perfect is less important than creating an Asian trading bloc as opposed to there being no rules at all. I think the bird's eye view on this is the only really important one - pharmaceutical rules, generics, patents etc etc are all gross and bad and so forth but that's just not as important compared to the benefits to the region overall.

# ? Aug 4, 2016 18:54

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