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Oh my goodness. http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-brief-history-of-suicide-squad-being-the-worst-place-1784804309 I'd be surprised if any of these people even want to be in a sequel to this movie.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:06
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X-O posted:Oh my goodness. I'm not sure which is more ridiculous. A) This poo poo is true and they engaged in completely insane bullshit for what appears to be a thoroughly mediocre more B) This poo poo is completely made up and they think portraying an insane edgy hosed-up abusive production is the best way to advertise what appears to a thoroughly mediocre film
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Aug 4, 2016 21:09
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X-O posted:Oh my goodness. Jesus Christ.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:14
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X-O posted:Oh my goodness. Going to be tough to find a way to blame someone else for Ayer there. We'll find a way though.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:26
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I got the feeling that Marvel gives the director and screen writers and all those that develop the movies what their parameters were, and let them pretty much do what they wanted within those. Only minor notes and any setup for future films would be worked into the movie organically. Though this works better than in others. Also, WB seems to want to do the "A Superhero for THIS Generation" which results in badly misreading what people want and abandoning things that made the character popular in the first place. That's why we got inked up Joker and Harle, because some exec said "Tattoos are really popular among kids these days, lets do that". Marvel looks at what made the character popular to begin with, and just tweeks it to make it work within the framework of the movies.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:30
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ImpAtom posted:I'm not sure which is more ridiculous. Either way is ridiculous and unnecessary for what seems like a completely mediocre film
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Aug 4, 2016 21:35
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Aphrodite posted:Going to be tough to find a way to blame someone else for Ayer there. No, Ayer is completely insane if he actually did this stuff and it's not just fluff to sell a crazy movie.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:48
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Falstaff posted:I suspect another difference is the creators on Marvel's side have a lot more respect for the source material and especially the characters they're working with. Marvel's had some missteps (imo), but even in their worst offerings I never got the feeling like the screenwriter thought the character was stupid and couldn't wait to kill him off (like Goyer with Superman) or that the director really wished he could have the main character raped to up the edginess content (like Snyder with Batman).
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Aug 4, 2016 21:59
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I wouldn't say Snyder is the best choice for helming all this but I would also be pretty hesitant to claim he doesn't love the source material. He does really seem to love comics.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:03
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I have zero doubt that Snyder loves comics. I just think he's sort of like Geoff Johns in that what he loves are a very specific type of comic (some of which may not actually exist outside of the mind of an 11 year old who loves the character). The major difference is that Geoff Johns sold his version of the character more successfully to comic fans than Snyder has to movie fans. I don't think having a different version of a character is bad but it is up to you to sell that version and Snyder at minimum hasn't been successful at making Superman *his*.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:10
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Leto sounds like the biggest fuckin shitbird in Hollywood, god drat. And doesn't he have a bunch of unsavory buzz following him about sexually assaulting groupies? Guuuuh why is this man worth forty million dollars
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Aug 4, 2016 22:12
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ImpAtom posted:I have zero doubt that Snyder loves comics. I just think he's sort of like Geoff Johns in that what he loves are a very specific type of comic (some of which may not actually exist outside of the mind of an 11 year old who loves the character). A core part of Snyder's work is exploring the way people will believe what you tell them, and see things a certain way if you tell the story a certain way. If he has a glaring weakness, in my opinion, it's that the way he plays around with these multiple layers of perception and reality can make it very confusing for the audience to connect the dots in what's supposedly a blockbuster action film. Disclaimer: I am not saying that BvS is perfect and everyone has to like it or they're a big dum-dum.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:19
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Halloween Jack posted:This is incoherent. Like you said, you're not a mind-reader, so your imaginings about whether or not Goyer and Snyder "get," "like," "love," "respect," or are "faithful to" the characters is not a good starting point for thinking about the films. You may be right, maybe I'm being incoherent. Still, I don't think I'd get the guy who thought the very concept was worthless to write the script for what my studio expects to be the biggest hit of the year. ETA: Halloween Jack posted:On the contrary, BvS takes an unflinching look at a character like Tony Stark--a mentally ill billionaire who travels around the world killing "bad guys" with high-tech weapons, refusing to be accountable to anyone. And that makes people really uncomfortable. This is what I mean by a lack of respect for the character. Maybe it's unrealistic or even dumb to portray a Tony Stark-esque figure, who as you say goes around the world killing "bad guys" with his riches, as anything but damaged and childish. That's even an argument that I'd be somewhat sympathetic to, if it was presented the right way. But in as much as Batman as a character is defined as "a rich but flawed man who wants to keep what happened to him as a child from happening to anyone else," it suggests that you don't really respect that more mainstream interpretation - what a lot of Batman fans who grew up with TAS would consider an important, even core, of the character. If you respected the source material, you wouldn't work so hard to reject it in favour of your own vision. You'd work at seeking a synthesis. Perhaps I'm giving Snyder and/or Goyer too much credit here, though, or reading too much into statements they've made that have been taken out of context. Movie making and sausage making are ugly processes that involve more than just the Director and the primary scriptwriter. I've been wrong about things in the past, I'll probably be wrong about things in the future. Falstaff fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 22:22
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Halloween Jack posted:
You actually are implying that the people who don't like it are "confused" and just "can't follow it." You stop just shy of calling them idiots but you very obviously think you are smarter than them.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:24
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Halloween Jack posted:On the contrary, BvS takes an unflinching look at a character like Tony Stark--a mentally ill billionaire who travels around the world killing "bad guys" with high-tech weapons, refusing to be accountable to anyone. And that makes people really uncomfortable. Nah. Snyder has discussed these things in interviews. He's got a critical look at Batman but it's the critical look of a fan who does shot-for-shot lifts of scenes from comics and at the end of the day thinks the character is very cool. He's someone who killed off Jimmy Olsen because he thought it would be fun. He's completely a giant comic fanboy first. That isn't to say his movies don't have other messages but I think he has the genuine problem of being such a big comic fanboy that it overshadows those. It happened with Watchmen too where he clung too close to the comic in places even though he clearly wanted to divorce from it in others. I understood BvS and I said before it came out that I thought one of the most appealing things about it was making Batman the racist paranoid villain. (And have criticized the movie since it came out for not going far enough in that territory.) My biggest complaints about BvS are that it's done by someone who is too big a comic fan and isn't willing to really take on some sacred cows. It's instead throwing in random cameos, goofy in-jokes and a focus on straight-from-the-comic scenes. Edit: This is doubly true in the Ultimate Edition where the ambiguity gets a huge slam in favor of more overt manipulation for Batman AND Superman, and in turn it's less critical of Batman than the theatrical cut. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 22:24
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ImpAtom posted:I have zero doubt that Snyder loves comics. I just think he's sort of like Geoff Johns in that what he loves are a very specific type of comic (some of which may not actually exist outside of the mind of an 11 year old who loves the character). Snyder has talked about what kind of comics he liked as a kid before. It's exactly that. He said as a kid he couldn't get into comics that didn't have sex or murder in them. To his credit at the same time he admitted that it was very odd to only be into those kinds of books at that age. This was years ago though before he got into the main DC stuff.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:26
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Travis343 posted:You actually are implying that the people who don't like it are "confused" and just "can't follow it." You stop just shy of calling them idiots but you very obviously think you are smarter than them. ImpAtom posted:Nah. Snyder has discussed these things in interviews. He's got a critical look at Batman but it's the critical look of a fan who does shot-for-shot lifts of scenes from comics and at the end of the day thinks the character is very cool. He's someone who killed off Jimmy Olsen because he thought it would be fun. He's completely a giant comic fanboy first. That isn't to say his movies don't have other messages but I think he has the genuine problem of being such a big comic fanboy that it overshadows those. It happened with Watchmen too where he clung too close to the comic in places even though he clearly wanted to divorce from it in others.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:35
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Halloween Jack posted:I think I get what you mean about Watchmen (I couldn't see a juxtaposition between the street fight and Manhattan's television interview as there was in the book), but I don't see how being a fan of the character precludes being willing to take on these issues, either in the plot or through the cinematography. Largely because it's difficult to be critical of someone like Batman when, at the end of the day, you think Batman is cool and that he should keep on being Batman without anything significant in the way of changes. Maybe Justice League will significantly surprise me but I didn't get the feeling that anything about Batman in BvS changed except his view on superhumans. He's presented as being more brutal at the start (though part of that, according to Ultimate, is engineered by Lex Luthor) but to be honest his brutality never overly fades. The bulk of the people who explicitly kills in the film he does rescuing Martha Kent and he breaks in to attack Lex Luthor near the end. And again the Ultimate Edition makes Batman seem worse here, with it being clear that he's specifically sending Lex Luthor to be brutalized by Arkham's staff and inmates. ("We have hospitals that treat the mentally ill with compassion, but that’s not where you’re going.”) And all that makes sense for a comic fan but feels like at best an extremely weak criticism of Batman, especially in the Ultimate Edition. I'm taking the Ultimate Edition as the 'true' version of the film here but the theatrical cut isn't really meaningfully different in this regards.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:49
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Personal feelings aside, Snyder just feels like such an odd choice for a character as bright and optimistic as Superman.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:52
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JT Smiley posted:Personal feelings aside, Snyder just feels like such an odd choice for a character as bright and optimistic as Superman. Not if you're going to completely excise those elements of his character.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:53
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JT Smiley posted:Personal feelings aside, Snyder just feels like such an odd choice for a character as bright and optimistic as Superman. I don't know. I think it makes sense. Snyder is building off the (for lack of a better term) "Post-9/11" Superman where the question quickly became "what is relevant and interesting about the big blue boyscout?" It's to some degree the same tone you saw in something like Smallville. He's trying to explain why Superman is sympathetic and relevant to modern people who are lacking in optimism for the future. It's why he directly lifts from All-Star Superman and why the sequel is "Yes, Superman is a good guy, why don't you see that?!"
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Aug 4, 2016 22:56
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The problem is he doesn't execute that very well. In that heseems to see the questions answer as self evident so never bothers to answer it. Which was the loving point.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:13
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This all comes down to the same argument everything in BSS does: I want the one from my childhood.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:36
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Aphrodite posted:This all comes down to the same argument everything in BSS does: I want the one from my childhood. my problem with Zack Snyder's Superman is actually that it is the Superman from my childhood, because the Superman from my childhood is the one from The Death of Superman, and those comics sucked balls
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Aug 4, 2016 23:51
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I don't like getting wrapped in "Marvel vs DC" polarity but, as far as that argument goes, even as a kid I just liked the Marvel characters better. They seemed more believable, grounded, true to life overall and were more interesting to read than the DC characters with the separate earths, the reboots and the wacky timelines and poo poo. Maybe it's just as simple as that. That the Marvel characters overall are more fleshed out, inherently flawed and basically just more interesting and simpler to write. I mean there's crossover and contradiction in my tastes for sure and I'm not saying it's absolute. I LOVE Batman, Joker, Teen Titans and Green Lantern. I hate Thor. But, for the most part, I always dug Spiderman, FF, Daredevil, Hulk, X-Men and Moon Knight more than whatever DC was offering up. There's a lot of great stuff to explore with DC. The Donner Superman films, the Nolan trilogy and even Burton's Batman prove that. I think DC just needs to slow the gently caress down and really explore these characters and tell their stories. Not saying they should copy Marvel's template entirely but maybe they should to some extent. You can't just throw the Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg up on a YouTube video cameo that makes no loving sense to anyone and expect the audience to connect with it.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:51
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Aphrodite posted:This all comes down to the same argument everything in BSS does: I want the one from my childhood. I can't speak for anyone else, but the only time I've ever seen Superman the movie was in the mid 80's when I was stuck in the hospital as a kid. I barely even remember it. I just want a good Superman Movie. Hell, I'd settle for an ok movie where Superman isn't a mopey rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:52
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Falstaff posted:I suspect another difference is the creators on Marvel's side have a lot more respect for the source material and especially the characters they're working with. Marvel's had some missteps (imo), but even in their worst offerings I never got the feeling like the screenwriter thought the character was stupid and couldn't wait to kill him off (like Goyer with Superman) or that the director really wished he could have the main character raped to up the edginess content (like Snyder with Batman). Wasn't there some quote doing the rounds a while ago where Zak Snyder was purported to have said he didn't really enjoy comics which don't have violence and death and so on in them? twistedmentat posted:Also, WB seems to want to do the "A Superhero for THIS Generation" which results in badly misreading what people want and abandoning things that made the character popular in the first place. That's why we got inked up Joker and Harle, because some exec said "Tattoos are really popular among kids these days, lets do that". Marvel looks at what made the character popular to begin with, and just tweeks it to make it work within the framework of the movies. You know, I'm looking at the words "A Superhero for THIS Generation" and I'm thinking, it's the MCU stuff that gets all its gifs and memes reblogged on Tumblr alongside the SuperWhoLock stuff... and the Arrowverse, I suppose.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:59
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Aphrodite posted:This all comes down to the same argument everything in BSS does: I want the one from my childhood. I never saw superman in any media as a child.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:00
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There were reruns of Superfriends and Challange of the Superfriends when I was a kid, plus obvious the comics of the 80s, so that's my superman, the post crisis superman. This is also why I love Brainiac so much.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:04
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twistedmentat posted:I got the feeling that Marvel gives the director and screen writers and all those that develop the movies what their parameters were, and let them pretty much do what they wanted within those. Only minor notes and any setup for future films would be worked into the movie organically. Though this works better than in others. Marvel has let their directors do their thing for the most part. It's why the whole "all Marvel movies are the same" narrative is so stupid. You can tell Iron Man 3 is a Shane Black film. You can tell Guardians of the Galaxy is a James Gunn film. Winter Solider is completely different from The First Avenger. Ant-Man has some Edgar Wright left in it, but the best stuff actually came from Peyton Reed. And yeah, they share some consistency across the board, you can see each director putting their own stamp on it. And they seem pretty upfront about letting directors know this, like with Black Panther.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:12
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BiggerBoat posted:I don't like getting wrapped in "Marvel vs DC" polarity but, as far as that argument goes, even as a kid I just liked the Marvel characters better. They seemed more believable, grounded, true to life overall and were more interesting to read than the DC characters with the separate earths, the reboots and the wacky timelines and poo poo. I remember appreciating Spider-Man a lot because he was kinda poor. I mean ok yeah he lives in new york so whatever but like he can afford the apartment but that's about it. I read an issue once where he was like fantasizing about making a Spider-Van but realized he wouldn't be able to pay for it and I'm like yep this is why I like this guy.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:34
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BiggerBoat posted:. Not saying they should copy Marvel's template entirely but maybe they should to some extent. You can't just throw the Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg up on a YouTube video cameo that makes no loving sense to anyone and expect the audience to connect with it. That's really the core problem, DC wanted to start at The Avengers, they didn't seem willing to earn it over the course of years the way Marvel did so they learned none of the lessons needed to pull it off in the same way and they didn't learn anything from the way Marvel did it, they just saw the box office numbers and decided to skip to the end.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:41
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ImpAtom posted:I don't know. I think it makes sense. I haven't seen bvs but from mos I'd think Snyders argument is that Superman isn't relevant. I'd also be curious if he's read Secret Identity because I think meshing some of those themes with some of the traditional origin beats would be a strong take for modern audiences.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:44
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:my problem with Zack Snyder's Superman is actually that it is the Superman from my childhood, because the Superman from my childhood is the one from The Death of Superman, and those comics sucked balls I liked John Henry Irons. Normal folks getting inspired to get out there and help is my kryptonite, which is also why I'm a sucker for "hero without their powers/gives up the cowl" stories like Spiderman 2 or Captain America.
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Aug 5, 2016 00:47
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Zachack posted:I haven't seen bvs but from mos I'd think Snyders argument is that Superman isn't relevant. I'd also be curious if he's read Secret Identity because I think meshing some of those themes with some of the traditional origin beats would be a strong take for modern audiences. I think Secret Identity would be a fantastic starting point for "why is Superman relevant" but yeah, it's not one of the Big Comics. the way All-Star and them are. 
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Aug 5, 2016 01:02
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The thing about Snyder and Goyer's Superman is he is not, for whatever reason, allowed to go Full Superman. The plot of BvS (and to a lesser extent, Man of Steel, because Superman's arc in BvS is mostly a retread of MoS) hinges on Superman being Superman. He's got to be a guy that a cynical world looks at and says, "Yeah, right. Nobody can be that good a guy." 'Normal' people, represented by the military in MoS and by Luthor and Batman in BvS, don't trust him. He wins the people to his side because he is actually that good a guy. He is actually as selfless and heroic and kind and good as he seems. Except, like I said, he's not allowed to go Full Superman. The movie wants us to think he is, but at the same time he wears dark colors, he kills his enemies, he's constantly glaring around angrily with the heat vision. I'm not sure who's feet to lay the blame for this on. Snyder says he doesn't get into comics without sex and murder. Goyer is the one writing the scripts. And DC overall pushes the angry, alienated god narrative of Superman over the superpowered, helpful farm boy narrative every chance they get. Overall it does seem cynical in a way. It feels like someone, somewhere in the process doesn't trust audiences not to laugh at Superman if he's 'corny' or too much of a 'boy scout'. And at the end of the day, this is also a Superman who has to be an action movie hero, which means there's going to be huge amounts of property damage, yelling, and death. The Ultimate Edition does a lot to let Superman be Superman, namely, adding some scenes of him actually saving people as opposed to just showing him angsting about saving people. It's not enough to overpower the cynical malaise that infects the entire shared universe they're building here. Batman suffers to a degree from this same issue. His arc in BvS is a man who's nearly given up all hope. He's the 'good man turned cruel". Ultimately he realizes that Superman is actually as good a guy as he seems, and his spirit is healed. His faith in humanity is restored, and his hope for the future is rekindled. But because he, too, has to be an action movie hero in a movie made by people who don't like comics without sex and death, Batman is still cruel. He still brutally, violently kills a lot of people despite his renewed optimism and faith in the goodness of mankind. The movie never suggests that his actions before Superman's death were wrong, because the movie wants us to think Batman is awesome. The only thing that changes in Batman is that he's decided Superman is his friend, and so instead of killing Superman he's going to kill the people who are bothering Superman. This is apparently good enough for Alfred, who serves as Batman's moral compass. The takeaway is, ultimately, the people making these movies think that stuff is fine. They think it's cool when superheroes torment and murder the bad guys while saying clever one-liners. The entire message of who Superman is is diluted and the movie ultimately falls flat, because the filmmakers are not bold enough to let these heroes be heroes. A cynical, post-9/11 world does not need a morally conflicted raging destructive Superman. It needs a bold, colorful, smiling icon, a shining blue-and-red spotlight in a dirty, grimy world. You can't fight darkness with slightly less darkness. The DCCU needed Full Superman, and it did not deliver.
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Aug 5, 2016 01:09
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Bruceski posted:I liked John Henry Irons. Normal folks getting inspired to get out there and help is my kryptonite, which is also why I'm a sucker for "hero without their powers/gives up the cowl" stories like Spiderman 2 or Captain America. Yeah it's possible that stuff was good, I haven't read much of it. I recently reread the Death of Superman and tried to get through World Without a Superman but those were woeful drat comics. I didn't make it to the part where they introduced the surrogate Supermen. I definitely like the idea of Steel as a character.
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Aug 5, 2016 01:14
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I kind of regret going into the DC/Marvel comparision argument, it only starts the same drat Snyder thing. He's not that interesting.
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Aug 5, 2016 01:19
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Shageletic posted:I kind of regret going into the DC/Marvel comparision argument, it only starts the same drat Snyder thing. He's not that interesting. I think Justice League bombing could be the best thing for him cuz maybe we'll get something like Dawn of the Dead again when he goes back to the drawing board.
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Aug 5, 2016 01:23
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rantmo posted:That's really the core problem, DC wanted to start at The Avengers, they didn't seem willing to earn it over the course of years the way Marvel did so they learned none of the lessons needed to pull it off in the same way and they didn't learn anything from the way Marvel did it, they just saw the box office numbers and decided to skip to the end. Well put. I mean, I don't have a problem with not having a solo Affleck Batman movie or another stand alone Superman film in and of itself, but god drat. Do we have to rush right into The Dark Knight Returns, The Death of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash and the formation of the Justice League and The Suicide Squad in, what, basically two rather lovely movies (BvS and SS)? Three with MoS. How many characters have been introduced in those three films alone? Just slow the gently caress down and focus a little. Even The Dark Knight, a prett well received and very good film, caught some poo poo for being bloated by cramming Two Face into the Joker story. If DC were making Spiderman 3 they'd wedge Carnage, Toxin, Mephisto and Morlun in it along with cameos by Black Cat, The Jackal and Ben Reilly.
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Aug 5, 2016 01:46
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